The Russian and European space agencies: a new launcher?

Brian McDermott,
Actually, I do believe the massively powerful "carrier rocket" is going
in for the kill of their establishing the LSE-CM/ISS, along with
obviously accommodating their deployed tether dipole element that's
hosting a dozen or more of those nifty 100 GW laser cannons, as
efficiently situated cruising such energy transfering cannons just
50,000 km from Earth (25,000 km if you'd dare since this is somewhat of
an interactive application).

I believe that's every bit as good as Star-Wars high-ground gets, and
so much more. Thus I'll have to agree that tonnes worth of He3 is just
the very tip of the lunar iceberg.

This is somewhat of a related topic: Russia to mine the Moon?
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...3d42fc235ee0b4
Paul F. Dietz;
sarcasm Yeah! Instead of mining 3He for use in nonexistent fusion
reactors, we can mine aluminum ore to feed an entire non-existent space
industry. /sarcasm
not hardly sarcasm Yeah! Instead of our mining 3He for use within
perfectly feasible fusion reactors, whereas it's a matter of proven
fact that we haven't a spare joule worth of energy, so that no matters
what we can's mine nor even process any other aluminum ore to feed an
entire non-existent space industry. /not hardly sarcasm

I guess we're just doomed to sit out WW-III, WW-IV and the war to end
all such energy wars being WW-V. Of course that final war will have to
be fought with sticks and stones between the few and far between
intellectuals as well as biological moron bigots remaining upon Earth.
Though other than all that, things should eventually return to norm as
based upon an energy standard of near zero fossil fuel that's worth
going for, meaning it'll take every last drop of blood as well as drop
of oil, tonne of coal and m3 of NG just to obtain whatever's necessary
as to keep their energy pillaging and process of raping mother Earth
sustained, whereas if we're lucky there'll be all of 1% available for
human consumption at $10,000/barrel.

Meanwhile, them dirty rotten Russians and quite possibly their Chinese
partners are off and running with their LSE-CM/ISS, thus easily
obtaining all of the He3 and of whatever other raw substances they'll
ever need.

sarcasm Of course these folks are going to be real friendly about
sharing this clean energy resource with the nations of such bigoted
fools that burned every bridge after having caused so much collateral
damage and carnage of the innocent for more than half a century.
/sarcasm
~

Life on Venus, a Township, Bridge and ET/UFO Park-n-Ride Tarmac:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
The Russian/China LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Venus ETs, plus the updated sub-topics; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
"In war there are no rules" - Brad Guth

"Ed Kyle" wrote in message
oups.com...
Of course, the U.S. still hasn't matched the USSR's
world's most powerful liquid hydrogen launch stage
(Energia).


Which, as history has shown, has no purpose.

In spite of our best perpetrated cold-war efforts to snooker thy
humanity, Russia seems to have had just about everything else under the
sun to work with (certainly a whole lot more rocket-science smarter
than we are), so I'd have to honestly speculate they have whatever it
takes for accomplishing a fusion reactor, or at least they'll soon have
it fully established by the time their first shipments of lunar He3
arrive.

However, as for their getting whatever safely and energy efficiently
to/from the lunar surface needs the basis of a good elevator.

Getting folks and whatever stuff safely between the LSE-CM/ISS and
mother Earth isn't 1% of the risk factor nor of taking the energy/kg as
per having to fly-by-rocket such items and folks directly to/from the
lunar surface.

Here's another brief (less wordy) rundown on the LSE-CM/ISS, of which
since others can't seem to be bothered and/or would rather not be
implicated in disclosing the truth and nothing but the truth, thus I've
given my less than ideal math another lose cannon shot in the dark
because, I know as a matter of physics fact that I'm essentially right,
and just because my math hasn't been up to your standards isn't a
disqualification of the truth that's here to behold, it's just proving
that I'm a whole lot more right about so much other that's been related
about our moon, as well as per the ulterior motives and hidden agendas
of so many others having been running us amuck for decades, as every
bit as much as I'd thought possible, and then some.

I'd thought honest folks already knew about the LSE-CM/ISS, whereas
this lunar space elevator as outfitted with a rather sizable (1e6 m3)
ISS abode within, as being situated roughly 62,000 km off the highly
reactive lunar deck (perhaps +/- a few thousand km) depends upon how
the tethers are having to tensioned, along with the deployed dipole
element and the CCM aspects as providing methods of interactively
keeping the CM/ISS gravity-well situation within the relative safety
and energy efficiency of the EM-L2/ME-L1 sweet-spot, though perhaps
having to reside a sufficient distance towards mother Earth is the most
likely solution that could have the CM/ISS residing as much as 66,000
km off the lunar deck.

(E)---------EM-L2 = 322,400 km---------CM/ISS--ME-L1 = 62,000
km--(M)

Moon revolution period (days) 27.3217
655.728 hrs/revolution = 2.3606e6 seconds/revolution
circumference @1r of 1738 km = 10.9202e6 meters
surface (1r)velocity = 10.9202e6/2.3606e6 = 4.626 m/s (roughly 1% of
Earth)

1r = (10.92e6 m)= 4.626 m/s
2r = (21.84e6 m)= 9.252 m/s
4r = 18.504 m/s
8r = 37.008 m/s
16r = 74.016 m/s
32r = 148.032 m/s
ME-L1+ @35.6732r (62,000 km) = 389.557489e6 meters circumference =
165.025 m/s

Actually, if that position were taken from the lunar surface becomes
roughly 2.2 km towards Earth, thus if anything there's a slight Earthly
pull upon the CM/ISS, although since everything is supposedly
interactive and adjustable, there's absolutely anything you'd care to
create. However, for my basic calculations and of limited math is where
I've come up with the following data that can obviously be computer
modeled to any point of being 3D and interactive worthy absolutes.

Centripetal force calculation of the CM/ISS as 50,000 t at 62,000 km
traveling at 165 m/s
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html#cf
The centrifugal or Apparent force of the LSE-CM at 50,000 tonnes = 2239
kg

2239 kg worth of centrifugal or apparent force applied onto the tether
is rather obviously in of itself insufficient for tensioning the
primary tethers as anchored into the moon, thus placing the CM/ISS a
bit further away from the moon is option No.1, increasing the overall
mass of the CM/ISS is option No.2 and/or of having deployed a fairly
substantial tether dipole element as headed directly towards mother
Earth, as perhaps reaching to within 50,000 km (closer if you'd dare
since there's a +/- 22,000 km variable to deal with that can also be
made fully interactive so as to regulate the platform distance) and of
that dipole element having the substantial termination pod or platform
of hosting a dozen or so of those nifty star-wars 100 GW laser cannons,
whereas perhaps this item affording yet another sizable ISS abode and
DoD star-wars outpost worth 58,000 t is only good for something less
than 1,000 t of apparent average gravity force while at the range of
50,000 km, that plus having to accommodate 272,500 km worth of a robust
composite tether weighing in at perhaps 1 kg/m is 272,500 tonnes,
however because of it's average distance of 161,200 km from Earth
shouldn't represent more than 272,500/605 = 500 tonnes of apparent
force. Thus 500 tonnes + 1000 tonnes = 1500 tonnes extra primary tether
tensioning pulling the CM/ISS towards Earth.

The primary tethers might be twice the mass as per the dipole element,
thus 62,000 km = 124,000 tonnes worth of basalt/silica composite
tethers that isn't hardly worth anything because of the 1/6th gravity
of the moon to start off with, then being an average distance 31,000 km
represents 124,000/6/318 = 65 tonnes of tether mass pulling the CM/ISS
towards the moon.

It's a bit more complicated than all of that, being that I have a CCM
placed as an interactive compensation element, that plus whatever the
final CM/ISS mass, of it's linear placement and of the tether dipole
element are entirely adjustable in terms of their overall mass and of
their placements, so that there'd be no possible situation that
couldn't be fully R&D engineered to suit and/or robotically
accommodated while on the fly. The only part of the plan that'll
require being regulated or floating at nearly the exact ME-L1/EM-L2 is
of the massive counter-rotating energy storage flywheels, whereas them
massive and powerful energy storage suckers should not affect tether
tensioning either way unless this active element were to replace the
CCM component.

I'll work this one over a bit in order to update into a few of my
previously established external pages as pertaining to the Lunar Space
Elevator. Any feedback as viable contributions and whatever math
corrections will certainly be appreciated and given the fullest of
credits for your efforts, which obviously excludes 99.9% of such
all-knowing usenet folks that are simply far too cloak and dagger brown
nosed to give an incest cloned borg's worth of a tinkers damn about
this or of anything that'll honestly benefit humanity, or otherwise
they wouldn't dare contribute squat (other than MOS dog-wagging flak)
out of lethal fear as per nondisclosure enforcements by those men in
black that took care of JFK and of that safety engineer too boot.
~

Life on Venus, Township w/Bridge and ET/UFO Park-n-Ride Tarmac:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
The Russian/China LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Venus ETs, plus the updated sub-topics; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
"In war there are no rules" - Brad Guth

Originally Posted by Ed Kyle

Pat Flannery wrote:
Ed Kyle wrote:

According to Anatoly Zak (russianspaceweb.com),
the originally proposed Kliper launch vehicle
was to be Onega, a very heavily modified Soyuz
launcher equipped with new booster engines and
probably with a new upper stage.

The new upper stage was supposed to be LOX/LH2 IIRC.
That would be a major improvement.
They would have finally gotten to where we were with Atlas-Centaur in
the mid 1960's. :-)

Of course, the U.S. still hasn't matched the USSR's
world's most powerful liquid hydrogen launch stage
(Energia).

If Zenit is used to launch Kliper, it would provide
a nice symmetry with the U.S. CEV SRB launcher, since
both would be based on space-shuttle boosters!

- Ed Kyle

Hi,
Last news about the "old-new" launcher:
after Sea Launch we'll see Land Launch?
Zenit 2 and 3 launched from Baikonur (for business and Kliper):
http://en.rian.ru/business/20050822/41201101.html
Rémy

Russian LSE-CM/ISS and He3 update:

In spite of our best perpetrated cold-war efforts, as to know thy enemy
and to snooker thy humanity, Russia seems to have retained just about
everything else under the sun to work with (certainly having been a
whole lot more rocket-science smarter than we are), so I'd have to
honestly speculate they have whatever it takes for accomplishing a
fusion reactor, or at least they'll soon have it fully established by
the time their first shipments of lunar He3 arrive.

However, as for their getting whatever safely and energy efficiently
to/from the lunar surface needs to first deal with securing the basis
of their establishing a good Lunar Space Elevator, which has been
technically doable within existing laws of physics and well as within
existing technology and of products that unlike spendy nano-tubes are
insead of mostly continuous basalt fiber, thus dirt/rock cheap and
basically off the shelf as being 100% capable of being provided by way
of the moon, via raw basalt processing along with usage of all the pure
solar energy of what's way more than sufficient for the task of
producing such unlimited composite fibers on behalf of creating tethers
without taking another kg worth of Earthly substance nor energy.

This is not a joke, whereas a robotic deployment of applied technology
that's perfectly capable of processing upon the local basalt and
whatever other elements, as processed via solar farm of perhaps 1e6 m2
should be capable of deriving 1e9 j/m2 worth of process heat that's
happening within a near vacuum with only the purity of Argon and a few
other clean and obviously dry gasses to deal with, which should only
improve upon the basalt foundry process while insuring the ultimate
fiber of 4.84 GPa, if not a whole lot better.

Getting folks and of whatever robotic stuff and of exporting products
safely away from the LSE-CM/ISS that's being tether held just slightly
towards Earth gravity isn't 1% of the risk factor nor of is it taking
1% the overall energy/kg as per having to fly-by-rocket such items and
folks directly to/from the lunar surface. A se of counter balance
elevators and electromagnetic breaking actually becomes another energy
generating consideration. Terraforming the moon with itself becomes too
obvious, as from the high-ground of 62,000 km is from where any number
of methods for artificially impacting the moon becomes exceedingly
efficient and safe.

Here's another brief (less wordy) rundown on the LSE-CM/ISS, of which
since others can't seem to be bothered and/or would rather not be
implicated in disclosing the truth and nothing but the truth, thus I've
given my less than ideal math another lose cannon shot in the dark
because, I know as a matter of physics fact that I'm essentially right,
and just because my math hasn't been up to your standards isn't a
disqualification of the truth that's here to behold, it's just proving
that I'm a whole lot more right about so much other that's been related
about our moon, as well as per the ulterior motives and hidden agendas
of so many as having been running us amuck for decades, as every bit as
much as I'd thought possible, and then some.

I'd thought honest folks already knew about the LSE-CM/ISS, whereas
this Lunar Space Elevator as outfitted with a rather sizable (1e6 m3)
ISS abode within, as being situated roughly 62,000 km off the highly
reactive lunar deck (perhaps +/- a few thousand km) depends upon how
the tethers are having to tensioned, along with the deployed dipole
element and the CCM aspects as providing methods of interactively
keeping the CM/ISS gravity-well usage situation within the relative
safety and energy efficiency of approprately taking advantage of the
EM-L2/ME-L1 sweet-spot, though perhaps having to reside a sufficient
distance towards mother Earth is the most likely solution that could
have the CM/ISS residing as much as 66,000 km off the lunar deck.

(E)------EM-L2=322,400 km------CM/ISS--ME-L1=62,000 km--(M)

Beside gravity issues, there's a slight but quite usable factor of
Centrifugal or Apparent Force of revolution as based upon a period of
27.3217 days.
Whereas 655.728 hrs/revolution = 2.3606e6 seconds/revolution
Circumference @1r of 1738 km = 10.9202e6 meters
Surface (1r)velocity = 10.9202e6/2.3606e6 = 4.626 m/s (roughly 1% of
Earth)
1r = (10.92e6 m)= 4.626 m/s
2r = (21.84e6 m)= 9.252 m/s
4r = 18.504 m/s
8r = 37.008 m/s
16r = 74.016 m/s
32r = 148.032 m/s
ME-L1+ @35.673r (62,000 km) = 389.5575e6 meters circumference = 165.025
m/s

Actually, if that 62,000 km CM/ISS position were taken from the lunar
surface becomes an average of roughly 2.2 km towards Earth, thus if
anything there's a slight Earthly pull upon the CM/ISS, although since
everything is supposedly interactive and adjustable, there's absolutely
anything you'd care to create in terms of tether tension. However, for
my basic calculations and of limited math is where I've come up with
the following data that can obviously be computer modeled to any point
of being 3D and as much interactive worthy of absolutes as necessary.
Speeding up the computer model by 1e6:1 should be quite entertaining at
2.36 seconds per revolution, or 2.55 seconds/Synodic period.

Centripetal force calculation of the CM/ISS as 50,000 t at 62,000 km
traveling at 165 m/s
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html#cf
The centrifugal or Apparent force of the LSE-CM at 50,000 tonnes = 2239
kg

2239 kg worth of centrifugal or apparent force applied onto the tether
is rather obviously in of itself insufficient for tensioning the
primary tethers as anchored into the moon, thus placing the CM/ISS a
bit further away from the moon is option No.1 (@50,000t each 0.001G =
50 tonnes), increasing the overall mass of the CM/ISS to 100,000 t or
even 500,000 t becomes option No.2, and/or of having deployed a fairly
substantial tether dipole element as headed directly towards mother
Earth, as perhaps reaching that element to within 50,000 km (closer if
you'd dare since there's a +/- 22,000 km variable to deal with that can
also be made fully interactive so as to regulate the platform distance)
and of that dipole element having the substantial termination pod or
platform of hosting a dozen or so of those nifty star-wars 100 GW laser
cannons, whereas perhaps this item affording yet another sizable ISS
abode and DoD star-wars outpost worth 5,800t becomes worth 100 t of
tether pull, whereas 58,000t is still doable at creating something less
than 1,000t of apparent average gravity force while situated at the
range of 50,000 km, that plus having to accommodate 272,500 km worth of
a robust composite tether weighing in at perhaps 1 kg/m is 272,500
tonnes. However, because of it's average distance of 161,200 km from
Earth shouldn't represent more than 272,500/605 = 500 tonnes of
apparent force. Thus a given design 500 tonnes + 1000 tonnes = 1500
tonnes extra primary tether tensioning as pulling upon the CM/ISS
towards Earth.

BTW; this LSE is not imposing any significant threat to the rescssion
and/or orbit of our moon, whereas I'd been previously informed or
perhap intentionally misinformed by others having been fooling with my
head as to believe that roughly 5 terajoules of tidal and velocity
sustaining energy is responsible for sustaining the current velocity
and recession of 38 mm/year. Obviously this amount seems in error if
we're talking about the entire moon being worth 7.35e22 kg, and of
moving that sucker away at the velocity of 38 mm/year.

Thus how about the apparent velocity of .038/31.536e6 = 1.205e-9 m/s
7.35e22 * 1.205e-9 = 88.5675e12 joules without having included for
whatever Vt/slug drag coeficient which should place that moon recession
and maintaince of velocity at something better than 100 terajoules.
Even dividing that energy equally between Earth and the moon = 50
terajoules.

Another confusing method for my dyslexic brain but otherwise suggested
by the likes of an online "ENERGY UNIT CONVERSION CALCULATOR" of
work/energy calculation as based upon the kgf.m/s of a 7.35e22 kg moon
that's moving itself off supposedly via tital energy by 0.038 m/year
seems to have come up with 868.53 TJ. Thus either way we're looking at
way more than whatever influence an LSE and tether dipole element can
apply. In other related words of my limited wisdom; if you wanted to
terraform a given hot and nastly planet with that of an icy proto-moon,
such as ours being perhaps worth 4000 km upon arrivial, whereas such
godly or whatever astrophsics happenstance of such items going bump in
the night, it seems that ours (meaning on behalf of terraforming mother
Earth) is about as good as it gets, plus having left us with a nifty
hulk of a de-iced moon that's just hanging aound for us village idiots
to do something with.

Another energy related thought; each 1000t of tether force/m/s =
9.80665 MJ
Even though there's an average transition of +/- 17.34 m/s (thus +/-
170 MJ/1000t) associated within every 29.5 days, that's obviously a
give and take situation that month by month should nullify.

As purely another suggestion; the primary tethers might be at least
twice the mass as per the dipole element, thus 62,000 km = 124,000
tonnes worth of basalt/silica composite tethers that isn't hardly worth
anything because of the 1/6th gravity of the moon to start off with,
then being an average distance 31,000 km represents a gravity force
reduction of 318:1, thereby 124,000/6/318 = 65 tonnes of tether mass
pulling down upon the 50,000t CM/ISS. Thus perhaps it'll be a good
notion of making the primary tethers four fold tougher than the dipole
element (better safe than sorry).

It's certainly a bit more complicated than all of that, being that I
have an available nearby CCM(counter-counter mass) element placed as an
interactive(vertically moving) moonward pulling compensation element,
that plus whatever the final CM/ISS mass, and/or of it's linear
placement and of the tether dipole element are entirely adjustable in
terms of their overall mass and of their linear placements, so that
there'd be no possible situation that couldn't be fully R&D engineered
to suit and/or robotically accommodated while on the fly. The only part
of the plan that'll require being regulated or floating at nearly the
exact ME-L1/EM-L2(zero gravity) is of the massive counter-rotating
energy storage flywheels, whereas them massive and powerful energy
storage suckers should not affect tether tensioning either way unless
this active energy storage element were utilized as to replace the
interactive CCM component.

As usual, I'll have to keep working this one over a bit in order to
update into a few of my previously established external pages as having
been pertaining to the Lunar Space Elevator. Any feedback as viable
contributions and whatever math corrections will certainly be
appreciated and given the fullest of credits for your efforts, which
obviously excludes 99.9% of such all-knowing USENET folks that are
simply far too cloak and dagger brown-nosed to give an incest cloned
borg's worth of a tinkers damn about any of this, or of anything other
that'll honestly benefit humanity, or otherwise they wouldn't dare
contribute squat (other than MOS of their dog-wagging flak) out of
lethal fears as per their Skull and Bones nondisclosure enforcements by
those MEN-in-BLACK that took care of JFK and of that whistle-blowing
NASA safety engineer and of his entire family to boot.

Actually, I believe the MI5/NSA Whistleblowing Code is a code of
nondisclosure/silence, or else.
~

Life on Venus, Township w/Bridge and ET/UFO Park-n-Ride Tarmac:
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-town.htm
The Russian/China LSE-CM/ISS (Lunar Space Elevator)
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/lunar-space-elevator.htm
Venus ETs, plus the updated sub-topics; Brad Guth / GASA-IEIS
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/gv-topics.htm
"In war there are no rules" - Brad Guth