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Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 8th 03, 11:49 AM
Al Jackson
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Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Pat Flannery wrote in message ...
If this was posted before, forgive me, but I just spotted it. Mark Wade
has put up a new section devoted to Wernher von Braun's rocket designs
of the 1950's, such as appeared in the Colliers articles and Disney
programs; and will appear any-year-now in David Sander's "Man Conquers
Space" movie: http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/vonbraun.htm

Pat


Nice page.
I might note that starting last year till March of 2004 is the 50th
anniversary
of the von Braun et. al. series of issues of Colliers on space flight.
I made a little tribute he

http://www.flash.net/~aajiv/bd/uss1.html

One thing I wish would be done, is that all the Colliers articles be
collected with the two Viking Press books from that era and be
published together in one book. Much of the material and artwork only
appears in the Colliers magazines and was never published anywhere
else.

  #12  
Old November 8th 03, 12:40 PM
Al Jackson
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Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Scott Lowther wrote in message ...
Pat Flannery wrote:

If this was posted before, forgive me, but I just spotted it. Mark Wade
has put up a new section devoted to Wernher von Braun's rocket designs
of the 1950's, such as appeared in the Colliers articles and Disney
programs; and will appear any-year-now in David Sander's "Man Conquers
Space" movie: http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/vonbraun.htm


Two of the designs there are the A-11 and A-12. I've been tryign to hunt
them down for some years myself, and have coem to this conclusion:
They're bull****.


Yes as far as the A-12 is concerned, von Braun must have invented this
after the war.
But no on the A11.
Dieter Hoelsken, documents this in V- Missiles of the Third Reich*,
monogram Aviation Publications, 1994. There is a document at the
Bundesarchiv (Military) dated 1943!, that describes the A11, in fact a
theoretical model for a A9/A10/A11 was calculated. See the note of
page 256 of Hoelsken's book, and footnote 52.
By the by , Hoelsken publishes a drawing of the piloted A9 on page 264
of V- Missiles of the Third Reich, but gives no historical
documentation.


( *V-WAFFEN. Entwicklung und Einsatz im II. Weltkrieg, Dieter Hölsken
)

  #13  
Old November 8th 03, 12:59 PM
Al Jackson
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Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Scott Lowther wrote in message ...
P.S. Sadly, Mark Wade is continuing the mythology that the A-9/A-10 ICBM
was to be manned. Bah!


I am not so sure of that!

Check out

http://www.luftarchiv.de/

search on A9 and you will see several versions of a piloted A9, but will
have to be able to read German. My German is not that good so I cannot
tell if there is historical documents to back this up, on that page.
Tho there is a drawing of that page that looks as if it came from some
archive!

  #14  
Old November 8th 03, 01:19 PM
Al Jackson
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Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Scott Lowther wrote in message ...
Pat Flannery wrote:

Scott Lowther wrote:

P.S. Sadly, Mark Wade is continuing the mythology that the A-9/A-10 ICBM
was to be manned. Bah!



It would be interesting to know how they intended to get it within a
hundred miles of either New York City or Washington D.C. with their
then-current guidance technology,


Sheer luck, and hard work. That was acknowledged as one of the problems
with the concept. And the fact is, Hitler (oddly) had a serious distaste
for Kamikaze weapons, right up to the end of the war, when he finally
okayed manned Fi-103 (V-1 buzzbombs). The notion that he would have
given the okay for a manned V-2 weapons system anytime prior to late 44
is laughable.


There is great info about the Fi 103 Re 4 in the auto biography and
biographies of Hanna Reitsch. She was the only test pilot of the
'manned V1' (and there were 7) who was neither killed nor injured
testing the Fi 103 Re 4!
In fact her life as a pilot and test pilot is almost beyond belief.
She may have been the greatest test pilot of the 20th century!
(The only woman to ever fly a rocket plane! The Me 163)

It is interesting that in the end even the Nazi high command
considered the
Luftwaffe-Selberstopfer-Divison to be nuts! And killed the project.

  #15  
Old November 8th 03, 02:24 PM
Pat Flannery
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Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Al Jackson wrote:


One thing I wish would be done, is that all the Colliers articles be
collected with the two Viking Press books from that era and be
published together in one book. Much of the material and artwork only
appears in the Colliers magazines and was never published anywhere
else.



That would be nice, wouldn't it? Calling Ron Miller....

Pat

  #16  
Old November 8th 03, 03:17 PM
Pat Flannery
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Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Al Jackson wrote:

But no on the A11.
Dieter Hoelsken, documents this in V- Missiles of the Third Reich*,
monogram Aviation Publications, 1994. There is a document at the
Bundesarchiv (Military) dated 1943!, that describes the A11, in fact a
theoretical model for a A9/A10/A11 was calculated. See the note of
page 256 of Hoelsken's book, and footnote 52.

In the Monogram Books edition, it's on page 265 and footnote #52.

By the by , Hoelsken publishes a drawing of the piloted A9 on page 264
of V- Missiles of the Third Reich, but gives no historical
documentation.

It's the only known wartime drawing of the manned A-9 variant; it was
supposed to be used as a reconnaissance machine. It's also shown in
G.Harry Stine's "ICBM" book.
The cutaway drawings of the manned A-9/A-10 on the site you supplied
link to are from "Secret Wonder Weapons of the Third Reich" by J.
Miranda and P. Mercado of Spain; they sure look impressive, don't they?
The cutaway drawings of the Nazi flying saucers in the hideously
overpriced "German Circular Planes "(Dossier # 10) by the same team also
look impressive:
http://www.geocities.com/unicraftmod...d3/frad3dr.jpg ...as
does the drawing of the Windkanone firing at the wrong end in their also
way-too-expensive "Strange Phenomena in the German Sky" (Dossier #11);
the art is great- but one must be very wary of the content. The "Archiv"
drawing of the manned A-9 reminds me in its style of a drawing that was
published of the speculated Soviet variant of the Antipodal Bomber, and
I suspect comes from the same source; if that is the case, it dates from
the early 1950's.

Pat

  #17  
Old November 8th 03, 03:28 PM
Pat Flannery
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Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Al Jackson wrote:

It is interesting that in the end even the Nazi high command
considered the
Luftwaffe-Selberstopfer-Divison to be nuts! And killed the project.



Of course they considered _this_ a rational project:
http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW/Mistel-12s.jpg
Bf-109's or FW-190's riding on top of Ju-88's with giant hollow-charge
bombs on the nose.
Here we see a gun camera shot of two of these clumsy monstrosities
meeting their end:
http://aerostories.free.fr/appareils.../mistel-us.jpg
Pilots live for kills this easy.

Pat

  #18  
Old November 8th 03, 07:12 PM
Scott Lowther
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Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Al Jackson wrote:

Scott Lowther wrote in message ...
P.S. Sadly, Mark Wade is continuing the mythology that the A-9/A-10 ICBM
was to be manned. Bah!


I am not so sure of that!

Check out

http://www.luftarchiv.de/

search on A9 and you will see several versions of a piloted A9, but will
have to be able to read German. My German is not that good so I cannot
tell if there is historical documents to back this up, on that page.
Tho there is a drawing of that page that looks as if it came from some
archive!


There is a pen-and-ink B&W sketch of the research manned A-9, of unknown
provenance, and color art done by Miranda in the 1990's. Not exactly
conclusive. As Pat mentioned, Miranda also has some nice artwork of
German flying saucers...


--
Scott Lowther, Engineer
Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam
gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address

  #19  
Old November 8th 03, 07:50 PM
Al Jackson
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Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Scott Lowther wrote in message ...
P.S. Sadly, Mark Wade is continuing the mythology that the A-9/A-10 ICBM
was to be manned. Bah!


More on this. It seems von Braun mentioned a piloted A9 in his Army
Ordnance report in 1945, most of which was republished in:

"Survey of Development of Liquid Rockets in Germany and Their Future
Prospects," Journal of the British Interplanetary Society, Vol. 10,
No. 2, Mar. 1951, pp. 75-80.

I can't really see why he would invent some mythology about a piloted
A9, even if it was just on paper ... but then I can't find any hard
reference either.

Curious thing , in Michael Neufeld's book The Rocket and the Reich, he
makes reference to the fact that the A9, A10 , A9/A10, A11, .. this
stuff was researched early on ,like 1941, the German memos are at the
National Air and Space Museum. Then work was suspended, then revived
again in 44 and 45, to late to really do anything.
So in a way it kind of remains a mystery, the paper trail in my
collection of books about German A-weapon development leads to wish I
could look at the archival material mention by Neufeld in his book.

  #20  
Old November 8th 03, 10:18 PM
Pat Flannery
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Default Von Braun rockets on Encyclopedia Astronautica

Scott Lowther wrote:

Not exactly
conclusive. As Pat mentioned, Miranda also has some nice artwork of
German flying saucers...




And I have models of two of those flying saucers that he drew- just
because they don't exist, doesn't mean that they don't make neat looking
models! The only drawings of a manned delta-winged A9 I ever saw
originated from him, and now get reproduced everywhere- including a
model kit...which I also used to have.

Pat

 




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