Newbie Question about Star Catalogs

Rhino wrote:
Ok, I'll bite: who are they? I've never heard of any of them....

Hi Rhino,

Don't worry. Collectively we're basically nobody.
By the way, anybody heard from Mr. Steinberg recently?

Clear Dark Steady Skies,
Dave Jessie

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:34:53 GMT, "Dave Jessie"
wrote:

By the way, anybody heard from Mr. Steinberg recently?

I fear that the terrible depression resulting from using a Mac and
living in the great armpit of America may have driven him to end it all.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Chris L Peterson wrote:

I fear that the terrible depression resulting from using a Mac and
living in the great armpit of America may have driven him to end it all.

Oh NO!!! I hear you, Chris. While I know several people that can stand the
stress of one or the other, I know FEW that could stand the pressure of both
simultaneously. I fear the worst as well. Poor John. Poor, poor John.
And his birthday was but 25 days away...ninety-two, if I remember correctly.

Let's lift our collective glasses to ol' Mr. Potatohead.

NGS is the second edition of the SAO catalog. SAO was the
first and stood for "Sold Astronomical Objects." These were
astronomical objects which were sold through the International
Star Registry. However, as more and more objects were sold,
the brighter stars in our galaxy were all sold and people
began buying entire galaxies. This necessitated a change, so
the catalog was split into three new catalogs. The NGS stands
for "Named Galactic Stars" and includes only those stars
within our own galaxy which have been sold. The NGC catalog
stands for "Named Galactic Clouds" and includes various nebula
within our own galaxy. IC stands for "Intergalactic
Collection" and includes all sold objects outside of our own
galaxy.

Since the purchasers have an official laser-printer
certificate, and the names have been published in a book that
is registered with the library of Congress, these names are
now official, and must be used by astronomers. Of course,
astronomers are jealous that they didn't think of it first.
Therefore astronomers have resisted using the names. In a
passive-aggressive move, they have refused to use the full
names, and are using only the numbers. The numbers were
assigned in the order of purchase. However congress is now
drafting legislation that will force astronomers to use the
full names. This is only right, as these people paid good
money, and have official certificates.

Of course, as an officially published book, the names are
protected by International Copyright, thereby forcing the rest
of the world to at least use the numbers as well. And, as more
copies of the book are registered with governments around the
world, eventually astronomers everywhere will have to
acknowledge the officialness of these names and use the full
names and not just the SAO, NGS, NGC or IC numbers.

("It must be official. I have an official laser-printer
certificate!")

Clear Skies

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon? If so, try
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

If you enjoy optics, try
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ATM_Optics_Software/
*********************************************

On 2005-10-26, Greg Crinklaw wrote:
Rhino wrote:
The star mentioned in the book is identified as "NGS 549672"; if I'm not
mistaken, "NGS" refers to a particular star catalog (National Galactic
Survey?) and "549672" uniquely identifies a specific star.

I work with astronomical catalogs a lot and I'm sorry to say that there
doesn't seem to be any NGS catalog. The number is also way too big for
a catalog from the 50's (remember that's the pre-computer era), so I
think it's safe to say that it was simply made up. You are right about
how it would work though.

NGS 549672 appears to be an imaginary reference, but it isn't a
completely far-fetched idea. The big star catalogs (BD, SBD and CD)
of the 19th century totaled over a million stars and were done by
hand and visually, so a big catalog number is not impossible for 1953.
The National Geographic Society had the National Geographic Society -
Palomar Observatory Sky Survey going by 1953; therefore, the NGS could
be inspired by National Geographic Society. As far as I know a catalog
wasn't produced from the plates until the Hubble Guide Star Catalog
came out. I don't know whether there was any earlier idea to produce
a star catalog from the NGS-POSS plates. The Carte du Ciel project of
the early 20th century was planned to produce an all-sky photographic
atlas and catalog with millions of stars but that as far as I know the
project was never completed.

--
The night is just the shadow of the Earth.

Dave Jessie wrote:
Chris L Peterson wrote:

I fear that the terrible depression resulting from using a Mac and
living in the great armpit of America may have driven him to end it all.

Oh NO!!! I hear you, Chris. While I know several people that can stand the
stress of one or the other, I know FEW that could stand the pressure of both
simultaneously. I fear the worst as well. Poor John. Poor, poor John.
And his birthday was but 25 days away...ninety-two, if I remember correctly.

Let's lift our collective glasses to ol' Mr. Potatohead.

Hear! Hear! It was a valiant struggle against overwhelming
discouragement. I'm surprised he held out as long as he did.

May his soul find rest in the blessed realms where Macs are
not allowed.

Clear Skies

Chuck Taylor
*********************************************
Do you observe the moon? If so, try
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

If you enjoy optics, try
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ATM_Optics_Software/
*********************************************

NGS is the second edition of the SAO catalog. SAO was the
first and stood for "Sold Astronomical Objects." These were
astronomical objects which were sold through the International
Star Registry. However, as more and more objects were sold,
the brighter stars in our galaxy were all sold and people
began buying entire galaxies. This necessitated a change, so
the catalog was split into three new catalogs. The NGS stands
for "Named Galactic Stars" and includes only those stars
within our own galaxy which have been sold. The NGC catalog
stands for "Named Galactic Clouds" and includes various nebula
within our own galaxy. IC stands for "Intergalactic
Collection" and includes all sold objects outside of our own
galaxy.

Since the purchasers have an official laser-printer
certificate, and the names have been published in a book that
is registered with the library of Congress, these names are
now official, and must be used by astronomers. Of course,
astronomers are jealous that they didn't think of it first.
Therefore astronomers have resisted using the names. In a
passive-aggressive move, they have refused to use the full
names, and are using only the numbers. The numbers were
assigned in the order of purchase. However congress is now
drafting legislation that will force astronomers to use the
full names. This is only right, as these people paid good
money, and have official certificates.

Of course, as an officially published book, the names are
protected by International Copyright, thereby forcing the rest
of the world to at least use the numbers as well. And, as more
copies of the book are registered with governments around the
world, eventually astronomers everywhere will have to
acknowledge the officialness of these names and use the full
names and not just the SAO, NGS, NGC or IC numbers.

("It must be official. I have an official laser-printer
certificate!")

Clear Skies

Chuck Taylor
Do you observe the moon? If so, try
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lunar-observing/

If you enjoy optics, try
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ATM_Optics_Software/
*********************************************

Clarke was a Sci-Fi writter and not beyond making something up, like in his
The City and the Stars he tells about the 7 Suns, 6 in a circle and the 7th
as the center and they where man made too.


--

The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net



"Rhino" wrote in message
.. .

Really? The novel, Childhood's End, is by Arthur C. Clarke. I always
thought
Clarke had a reputation as a genuine scientist, not just a novelist. I had
expected accuracy from him.

In 1953, looking up something like that catalog number would probably
have
been something you could only do at a major metropolitan library or
university with an astrophysics department. I assumed this reference was
basically an inside joke for the readers he had who were actually
astronomers....

Well, I guess I was wrong and the reference is bogus.

Thank you for clearing that up! Your note probably also explains why my
google search on the NGS number failed to work.

Rhino

William Hamblen wrote:
On 2005-10-26, Greg Crinklaw wrote:

Rhino wrote:

The star mentioned in the book is identified as "NGS 549672"; if I'm not
mistaken, "NGS" refers to a particular star catalog (National Galactic
Survey?) and "549672" uniquely identifies a specific star.

I work with astronomical catalogs a lot and I'm sorry to say that there
doesn't seem to be any NGS catalog. The number is also way too big for
a catalog from the 50's (remember that's the pre-computer era), so I
think it's safe to say that it was simply made up. You are right about
how it would work though.

NGS 549672 appears to be an imaginary reference, but it isn't a
completely far-fetched idea. The big star catalogs (BD, SBD and CD)
of the 19th century totaled over a million stars and were done by
hand and visually, so a big catalog number is not impossible for 1953.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Nobody said it was impossible in principle.
But it is quite unlikely that such a catalog existed and is now lost or
unknown.

--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
Observing: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
Comets: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/comets.html

To reply have a physician remove your spleen

"Mike Simmons" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:50:20 -0400, Rhino wrote:

"Greg Crinklaw" wrote in message
...
Rhino wrote:
The star mentioned in the book is identified as "NGS 549672"; if I'm
not
mistaken, "NGS" refers to a particular star catalog (National Galactic
Survey?) and "549672" uniquely identifies a specific star.

I work with astronomical catalogs a lot and I'm sorry to say that there
doesn't seem to be any NGS catalog. The number is also way too big for
a catalog from the 50's (remember that's the pre-computer era), so I
think it's safe to say that it was simply made up. You are right about
how it would work though.

Some links if you are still curious:
SIMBAD http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/
NED http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/

Really? The novel, Childhood's End, is by Arthur C. Clarke. I always
thought
Clarke had a reputation as a genuine scientist, not just a novelist. I
had
expected accuracy from him.

In 1953, looking up something like that catalog number would probably
have
been something you could only do at a major metropolitan library or
university with an astrophysics department. I assumed this reference was
basically an inside joke for the readers he had who were actually
astronomers....

Well, I guess I was wrong and the reference is bogus.

Thank you for clearing that up! Your note probably also explains why my
google search on the NGS number failed to work.

Rhino

There's a chance Clarke was using a designation that might have made sense
at the time, based on your speculation that "NGS" could stand for the
National Geographic Society. What is now referred to as the Palomar
Observatory Sky Survey (POSS) had begun in 1949 and was at the time
referred to as the National Geographic Society-Palomar Observatory Sky
Survey (for the sponsor of the survey). Thus Clarke might have used "NGS"
as a catalog designation in anticipation of the publication of a catalog
he
might have expected many years in the future (the survey was completed in
1958 but any catalog that might have resulted would have taken many more
years to reduce from the glass photographic plates. No such systematic
catalog was ever produced and I don't think such a project was ever
planned
but this could have been something from Clarke's rather fertile
imagination.

This is all speculation and only Clarke could say if there's any truth to
it. Of course, you could always write to him and ask -- there's nothing
to
lose by trying but a few minutes of your time. But even if the above was
correct (and it seems like a long-shot) the star designation is clearly
made up.

I wouldn't fault Clarke for that, though. Since he was writing about the
future he could just as easily use a star catalog that had yet to be
developed. His use of it seems to be in line with common usage and the
high number that Greg points out is consistent with future, advanced
technologies. Besides, Clarke undoubtedly was familiar with the problems
associated with naming a real star. He'd probably encountered plenty of
people who take such things literally, assuming that the government is
hiding something that has to do with that star. Many of the rest of us
have encountered such people.

I wasn't born until a few years after Childhood's End came out so I can't
speak from experience on that. I wonder if as many people believed in
conspiracy theories then as do now? I'm amazed by all of the really bizarre
theories I see in various newsgroups in Usenet! Then again, maybe I
shouldn't be surprised for the political newsgroups; they tend to bring out
the whackos!

I'm not saying that there have never been any real conspiracies but I
seriously doubt that there have been nearly as many as some people seem to
believe. I can remember anxieties and concerns from when I was a kid -
people worried about nuclear war with the Soviets and some people speculated
that Hitler or Bormann might still be alive somewhere, plotting to resurrect
the Third Reich - but even these weren't full scale conspiracy theories
involving sneaky plots and coverups by national governments.

Oh well, it takes all kinds of people to make up a world.....

Rhino