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#61
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
Chris L Peterson wrote in
: On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:27:38 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: Chris L Peterson wrote in m: On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 12:37:19 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel wrote: No. I simply recognize reality. Faith-based thinking has never produced a truth. "Faith-based thinking" is a slippery phrase. What does it even mean? No, it's rigorously defined. The difficulty, of course, is that it's defined in multiple, mutually exclusive ways by different people. Not really. Only in your diseased hallucination. -- Terry Austin Vacation photos from Iceland: https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole." -- David Bilek Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals. |
#62
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
A lot of garbled stuff from people who just don't have a feeling for spirituality and astronomy.
The ancient societies celebrated this time of the year as the Zodiacal lights would appear thereby captivating the local community where I grew up even though they were then called 'strange lights' back then. The dull and dreary racket readers see here is nothing like the human heritage where people, the landscape and astronomy mesh - https://www.archaeology.ie/news/arch...-bru-na-boinne |
#63
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 2:20:29 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Sure, science would continue, but some scientists would be left in the dust because they couldn't adapt. Saint Albert and QM is a case in point. I would hope that I'm flexible enough to embrace new evidence, whatever it is. Assuming by St. Albert you mean Albert Einstein. Who of course is dead. If Einstein were somehow still alive I am sure he would not be fundamentally unable to continue inquire should he learn some of his theories were incomplete. I'm sure he's learned a lot since he has died. I don't know what your point is. The Abrahamic religions DO continue "even though" they believe those things you list. You missed my point. Apparently. Accepting that a diety guided the 13 Jewish tribes 13? I thought there were 12 sons. to a promised land because they are a chosen people, that Jesus is divine, and that Mohamed received the Qu'ran from the lips of a diety are fundamental components of those faiths. If one were to accept proof disputing the tenants, that person would no longer be considered among the faithful. This holds even among the more liberal denominations.. And it holds in science, too. Consider Halton Arp, Roy Spencer and others were/are not considered among the "faithful." “Life cannot have had a random beginning … The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in 10^40,000, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup.” – Fred Hoyle There has a been many additions to biochemistry since the 1980s when Hoyle wrote what that quote. So there must be some undiscovered shortcuts or life began elsewhere long, long, long ago. Maybe even before the Big Bang? Not likely. "Likely" or "not likely" are human-cognitive but not necessarily related to the universe. https://physicsworld.com/a/new-evide...nd-colleagues/ |
#64
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 4:13:33 PM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 12:37:19 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel wrote: No. I simply recognize reality. Faith-based thinking has never produced a truth. "Faith-based thinking" is a slippery phrase. What does it even mean? No, it's rigorously defined. It means accepting as true that which is not supported by evidence. In many cases (for instance most religion) it means accepting as true that which is contradicted by evidence. Ignoring evidence is practiced in both religion AND science. As P. Pilate said, "What is truth?" Faith-based thinking is the opposite of evidence-based thinking. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I see a lot of faith-based thinking in science, particularly in AGW. And you yourself have expressed "faith-based thinking." You believe (without evidence) that all alien civilizations destroy themselves before they can become god-like. Remember? :-) "truth" is also a bit slippery. Science doesn't deal in truths. We used to think it did, but today we understand that science deals with models that predict observables. Pragmatically, science very much does deal in truths, That is VERY old-school. where we define that as things which accurately describe how nature works. We don't know how nature REALLY works. We build models that allow us to predict outcomes, but models are maps of nature, not nature herself. "Models are of central importance in many scientific contexts. The centrality of models such as the billiard ball model of a gas, the Bohr model of the atom, the MIT bag model of the nucleon, ... are cases in point." https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/models-science/ It is to me. I accept scientific models until refuted by experimental observations. I also hold beliefs that are not refuted by such observations. You hold a belief that there is no God, which would be destroyed the moment God showed Himself. Which is why I don't claim there are no gods. But I consider it true beyond reasonable doubt that there are none. It's the same standard I apply to unicorns and leprechauns. Many, many people have had experiences with God, but very, very few with unicorns and leprechauns. Sure it is. "Reality" is unknowable to our senses. We construct models (maps) of reality, but the map is not the territory. It is entirely reasonable to see the model and reality as being one and the same. Not "reasonable" at all. It is a human trait to believe that one has found "The Secrets of the Universe" in one's own experiences, but wisdom is more circumspect. “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.” -- Richard P. Feynman |
#65
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:11:53 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote: No, it's rigorously defined. It means accepting as true that which is not supported by evidence. In many cases (for instance most religion) it means accepting as true that which is contradicted by evidence. Ignoring evidence is practiced in both religion AND science. As P. Pilate said, "What is truth?" No, it is NEVER ignored by science. Sure, by individual scientists, who are fallible and never operate with perfect reason. But by science itself? Never. Which is why science never fails to lead us closer to truth (and in so doing, isolates more and more religious dogma as objectively false). We'll just have to agree to disagree. I see a lot of faith-based thinking in science, particularly in AGW. Of course you do. Because you don't understand science, and because you can't overcome your dogma when science demonstrates things that you have philosophical problems with. And you yourself have expressed "faith-based thinking." You believe (without evidence) that all alien civilizations destroy themselves before they can become god-like. Remember? :-) I don't "believe" this. I offer it as a plausible hypothesis to answer the Fermi paradox, based on observation of human behavior. That's all. Many, many people have had experiences with God, but very, very few with unicorns and leprechauns. Nobody, of course, has had an experience with God. While it is possible some god might exist, God (the Abrahamic monster) does not, beyond all reasonable doubt. Of course, we now understand a lot about the brain states and dysfunctions that lead to such experiences, and our degree of understanding in that area is growing rapidly. |
#66
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Saturday, September 15, 2018 at 9:15:34 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:11:53 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel wrote: No, it's rigorously defined. It means accepting as true that which is not supported by evidence. In many cases (for instance most religion) it means accepting as true that which is contradicted by evidence. Ignoring evidence is practiced in both religion AND science. As P. Pilate said, "What is truth?" No, it is NEVER ignored by science. NEVER? You are sounding like an absolutist. :-) Sure, by individual scientists, who are fallible and never operate with perfect reason. Sometimes by the whole scientific community. But you are right because it tends to be self-correcting. But by science itself? Never. Which is why science never fails to lead us closer to truth (and in so doing, isolates more and more religious dogma as objectively false). And that's a good thing since "dogma" is a creation of man, not of God. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I see a lot of faith-based thinking in science, particularly in AGW. Of course you do. Because you don't understand science, and because you can't overcome your dogma when science demonstrates things that you have philosophical problems with. You completely misrepresent me with that straw-man allegation. Since you believe science seeks "truth" it is YOU that embraces "dogma" and YOU that misunderstands science. And you yourself have expressed "faith-based thinking." You believe (without evidence) that all alien civilizations destroy themselves before they can become god-like. Remember? :-) I don't "believe" this. I offer it as a plausible hypothesis to answer the Fermi paradox, based on observation of human behavior. That's all. And why would "human behavior apply to aliens? And "plausible" can only have one meaning in a universe composed of billions of galaxies that have existed three times longer than our solar system, each with billions of stars and billions of planets: If something CAN happen, it has already happened. Many, many people have had experiences with God, but very, very few with unicorns and leprechauns. Nobody, of course, has had an experience with God. This is YOUR dogma. Many, many people have had such experiences. They are quite common. My grandmother did, my aunt did, as well as other members of my family. You, of course, would label such things as hallucinations or tricks of the mind, but doing so just exposes your own dogma. While it is possible some god might exist, God (the Abrahamic monster) does not, beyond all reasonable doubt. My, but you are SO vociferous in your dogma :-) Of course, we now understand a lot about the brain states and dysfunctions that lead to such experiences, and our degree of understanding in that area is growing rapidly. See? |
#67
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
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Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! Bark! -- Terry Austin "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole." -- David Bilek Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals. |
#68
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
People who can be inspired by nature at a local level will be inspired at our celestial neighbourhood and all the events we participate in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auSo1MyWf8g |
#69
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 09:53:03 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote: On Saturday, September 15, 2018 at 9:15:34 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote: On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 06:11:53 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel wrote: No, it's rigorously defined. It means accepting as true that which is not supported by evidence. In many cases (for instance most religion) it means accepting as true that which is contradicted by evidence. Ignoring evidence is practiced in both religion AND science. As P. Pilate said, "What is truth?" No, it is NEVER ignored by science. NEVER? You are sounding like an absolutist. :-) Sure, by individual scientists, who are fallible and never operate with perfect reason. Sometimes by the whole scientific community. But you are right because it tends to be self-correcting. Never. But by science itself? Never. Which is why science never fails to lead us closer to truth (and in so doing, isolates more and more religious dogma as objectively false). And that's a good thing since "dogma" is a creation of man, not of God. Of course, since there is no reason to believe in a god. It's an absurd belief for anybody living in our times. A belief that removes a person from credibility. And you yourself have expressed "faith-based thinking." You believe (without evidence) that all alien civilizations destroy themselves before they can become god-like. Remember? :-) I don't "believe" this. I offer it as a plausible hypothesis to answer the Fermi paradox, based on observation of human behavior. That's all. And why would "human behavior apply to aliens? It may not. But we can observe the things that allowed us to become a technological species, including our tribalism, which is currently at the core of our potential extinction, and recognize that this could be characteristic of most species that follow our path. Again, a hypothesis only needs to be plausible. |
#70
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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?
On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 8:57:50 AM UTC-6, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
There is a curious bunch of Americans who adopted the term 'Abrahamic' religion This term is used to distinguish Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, which include in their basis strong exclusive claims to being the sole truth, with all other religions beinng wrong, and religions like Hinduism and Buddhism, which tend towards the syncretic. John Savard |
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