Newbie Question about Star Catalogs

Actually, I'm not really even a newbie, just a science fiction fan with a
vague interest in astronomy.

But, as it happens, I'm reading a novel which gives a catalog reference to a
particular star and I would like to know where this star is and what it's
called. I know the novel will tell me this eventually but I'd like to know
*now* :-)

The star mentioned in the book is identified as "NGS 549672"; if I'm not
mistaken, "NGS" refers to a particular star catalog (National Galactic
Survey?) and "549672" uniquely identifies a specific star. I googled on "NGS
549672" but found nothing useful. Then I googled on "star catalog" and found
tons of hits and discovered that there are apparently a number of popular
star charts. Unfortunately, I don't know how to use *any* of them to
discover what the name of this particular star is.

Now, I am NOT asking anyone to simply tell me the star's name is; I'd like
to learn a little something along the way :-) So, can anyone tell me what
catalog to use to find this star and where I can find an online tool (or
program) that will enable me to do this lookup? For example: "use the XYZ
Star Catalog, which can be found at http://xyz.com and has a
self-explanatory interface where you can specify the star's identifier."

I should mention that the book was written in 1953 so the catalog in
question, NGS, may not exist any more, having been superseded by something
newer. If that is the case, I assume there is some way to translate my
reference to the name used in the later catalog(s) so I'd appreciate some
guidance in how to find a conversion tool.

See, I *am* trying to learn something, not just have all the answers handed
to me on a silver platter :-)

--
Rhino

Rhino wrote:
The star mentioned in the book is identified as "NGS 549672"; if I'm not
mistaken, "NGS" refers to a particular star catalog (National Galactic
Survey?) and "549672" uniquely identifies a specific star.

I work with astronomical catalogs a lot and I'm sorry to say that there
doesn't seem to be any NGS catalog. The number is also way too big for
a catalog from the 50's (remember that's the pre-computer era), so I
think it's safe to say that it was simply made up. You are right about
how it would work though.

Some links if you are still curious:
SIMBAD http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/
NED http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/

--
Greg Crinklaw
Astronomical Software Developer
Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

SkyTools: http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
Observing: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
Comets: http://www.skyhound.com/sh/comets.html

To reply have a physician remove your spleen

"Greg Crinklaw" wrote in message
...
Rhino wrote:
The star mentioned in the book is identified as "NGS 549672"; if I'm not
mistaken, "NGS" refers to a particular star catalog (National Galactic
Survey?) and "549672" uniquely identifies a specific star.

I work with astronomical catalogs a lot and I'm sorry to say that there
doesn't seem to be any NGS catalog. The number is also way too big for
a catalog from the 50's (remember that's the pre-computer era), so I
think it's safe to say that it was simply made up. You are right about
how it would work though.

Some links if you are still curious:
SIMBAD http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/
NED http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/

Really? The novel, Childhood's End, is by Arthur C. Clarke. I always thought
Clarke had a reputation as a genuine scientist, not just a novelist. I had
expected accuracy from him.

In 1953, looking up something like that catalog number would probably have
been something you could only do at a major metropolitan library or
university with an astrophysics department. I assumed this reference was
basically an inside joke for the readers he had who were actually
astronomers....

Well, I guess I was wrong and the reference is bogus.

Thank you for clearing that up! Your note probably also explains why my
google search on the NGS number failed to work.

Rhino

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:50:20 -0400, Rhino wrote:

"Greg Crinklaw" wrote in message
...
Rhino wrote:
The star mentioned in the book is identified as "NGS 549672"; if I'm not
mistaken, "NGS" refers to a particular star catalog (National Galactic
Survey?) and "549672" uniquely identifies a specific star.

I work with astronomical catalogs a lot and I'm sorry to say that there
doesn't seem to be any NGS catalog. The number is also way too big for
a catalog from the 50's (remember that's the pre-computer era), so I
think it's safe to say that it was simply made up. You are right about
how it would work though.

Some links if you are still curious:
SIMBAD http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/
NED http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/

Really? The novel, Childhood's End, is by Arthur C. Clarke. I always thought
Clarke had a reputation as a genuine scientist, not just a novelist. I had
expected accuracy from him.

In 1953, looking up something like that catalog number would probably have
been something you could only do at a major metropolitan library or
university with an astrophysics department. I assumed this reference was
basically an inside joke for the readers he had who were actually
astronomers....

Well, I guess I was wrong and the reference is bogus.

Thank you for clearing that up! Your note probably also explains why my
google search on the NGS number failed to work.

Rhino

There's a chance Clarke was using a designation that might have made sense
at the time, based on your speculation that "NGS" could stand for the
National Geographic Society. What is now referred to as the Palomar
Observatory Sky Survey (POSS) had begun in 1949 and was at the time
referred to as the National Geographic Society-Palomar Observatory Sky
Survey (for the sponsor of the survey). Thus Clarke might have used "NGS"
as a catalog designation in anticipation of the publication of a catalog he
might have expected many years in the future (the survey was completed in
1958 but any catalog that might have resulted would have taken many more
years to reduce from the glass photographic plates. No such systematic
catalog was ever produced and I don't think such a project was ever planned
but this could have been something from Clarke's rather fertile
imagination.

This is all speculation and only Clarke could say if there's any truth to
it. Of course, you could always write to him and ask -- there's nothing to
lose by trying but a few minutes of your time. But even if the above was
correct (and it seems like a long-shot) the star designation is clearly
made up.

I wouldn't fault Clarke for that, though. Since he was writing about the
future he could just as easily use a star catalog that had yet to be
developed. His use of it seems to be in line with common usage and the
high number that Greg points out is consistent with future, advanced
technologies. Besides, Clarke undoubtedly was familiar with the problems
associated with naming a real star. He'd probably encountered plenty of
people who take such things literally, assuming that the government is
hiding something that has to do with that star. Many of the rest of us
have encountered such people.

Mike Simmons

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:08:02 -0700, Mike Simmons
wrote:

There's a chance Clarke was using a designation that might have made sense
at the time, based on your speculation that "NGS" could stand for the
National Geographic Society. What is now referred to as the Palomar
Observatory Sky Survey (POSS) had begun in 1949 and was at the time
referred to as the National Geographic Society-Palomar Observatory Sky
Survey (for the sponsor of the survey). Thus Clarke might have used "NGS"
as a catalog designation in anticipation of the publication of a catalog he
might have expected many years in the future (the survey was completed in
1958 but any catalog that might have resulted would have taken many more
years to reduce from the glass photographic plates.

Interesting. That sounds very much like something Clarke would do (and
he does identify NGS in the book as the National Geographic Survey).

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

"Mike Simmons" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:50:20 -0400, Rhino wrote:

"Greg Crinklaw" wrote in message
...
Rhino wrote:
The star mentioned in the book is identified as "NGS 549672"; if I'm
not
mistaken, "NGS" refers to a particular star catalog (National Galactic
Survey?) and "549672" uniquely identifies a specific star.

I work with astronomical catalogs a lot and I'm sorry to say that there
doesn't seem to be any NGS catalog. The number is also way too big for
a catalog from the 50's (remember that's the pre-computer era), so I
think it's safe to say that it was simply made up. You are right about
how it would work though.

Some links if you are still curious:
SIMBAD http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/
NED http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/

Really? The novel, Childhood's End, is by Arthur C. Clarke. I always
thought
Clarke had a reputation as a genuine scientist, not just a novelist. I
had
expected accuracy from him.

In 1953, looking up something like that catalog number would probably
have
been something you could only do at a major metropolitan library or
university with an astrophysics department. I assumed this reference was
basically an inside joke for the readers he had who were actually
astronomers....

Well, I guess I was wrong and the reference is bogus.

Thank you for clearing that up! Your note probably also explains why my
google search on the NGS number failed to work.

Rhino

There's a chance Clarke was using a designation that might have made sense
at the time, based on your speculation that "NGS" could stand for the
National Geographic Society. What is now referred to as the Palomar
Observatory Sky Survey (POSS) had begun in 1949 and was at the time
referred to as the National Geographic Society-Palomar Observatory Sky
Survey (for the sponsor of the survey). Thus Clarke might have used "NGS"
as a catalog designation in anticipation of the publication of a catalog
he
might have expected many years in the future (the survey was completed in
1958 but any catalog that might have resulted would have taken many more
years to reduce from the glass photographic plates. No such systematic
catalog was ever produced and I don't think such a project was ever
planned
but this could have been something from Clarke's rather fertile
imagination.

This is all speculation and only Clarke could say if there's any truth to
it. Of course, you could always write to him and ask -- there's nothing
to
lose by trying but a few minutes of your time. But even if the above was
correct (and it seems like a long-shot) the star designation is clearly
made up.

I wouldn't fault Clarke for that, though. Since he was writing about the
future he could just as easily use a star catalog that had yet to be
developed. His use of it seems to be in line with common usage and the
high number that Greg points out is consistent with future, advanced
technologies. Besides, Clarke undoubtedly was familiar with the problems
associated with naming a real star. He'd probably encountered plenty of
people who take such things literally, assuming that the government is
hiding something that has to do with that star. Many of the rest of us
have encountered such people.

I wasn't born until a few years after Childhood's End came out so I can't
speak from experience on that. I wonder if as many people believed in
conspiracy theories then as do now? I'm amazed by all of the really bizarre
theories I see in various newsgroups in Usenet! Then again, maybe I
shouldn't be surprised for the political newsgroups; they tend to bring out
the whackos!

I'm not saying that there have never been any real conspiracies but I
seriously doubt that there have been nearly as many as some people seem to
believe. I can remember anxieties and concerns from when I was a kid -
people worried about nuclear war with the Soviets and some people speculated
that Hitler or Bormann might still be alive somewhere, plotting to resurrect
the Third Reich - but even these weren't full scale conspiracy theories
involving sneaky plots and coverups by national governments.

Oh well, it takes all kinds of people to make up a world.....

Rhino

On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:12:06 -0400, Rhino wrote:

I wouldn't fault Clarke for that, though. Since he was writing about the
future he could just as easily use a star catalog that had yet to be
developed. His use of it seems to be in line with common usage and the
high number that Greg points out is consistent with future, advanced
technologies. Besides, Clarke undoubtedly was familiar with the problems
associated with naming a real star. He'd probably encountered plenty of
people who take such things literally, assuming that the government is
hiding something that has to do with that star. Many of the rest of us
have encountered such people.

I wasn't born until a few years after Childhood's End came out so I can't
speak from experience on that. I wonder if as many people believed in
conspiracy theories then as do now? I'm amazed by all of the really bizarre
theories I see in various newsgroups in Usenet! Then again, maybe I
shouldn't be surprised for the political newsgroups; they tend to bring out
the whackos!

I'm not saying that there have never been any real conspiracies but I
seriously doubt that there have been nearly as many as some people seem to
believe. I can remember anxieties and concerns from when I was a kid -
people worried about nuclear war with the Soviets and some people speculated
that Hitler or Bormann might still be alive somewhere, plotting to resurrect
the Third Reich - but even these weren't full scale conspiracy theories
involving sneaky plots and coverups by national governments.

Oh well, it takes all kinds of people to make up a world.....

Rhino

When Clarke wrote Childhood's End in 1953 the US was in the grip of the
biggest conspiracy-theory period ever -- The Red Scare. Consider Sen. Joe
McCarthy and how he could terrorize citizens, the FBI's anti-Communist
actions, etc. There were UFO's as well and one movie after another playing
on people's fears by showing us being invaded.

The only difference I'm aware of is that now Usenet has given the
conspiracy-minded places to congregate and compare notes more easily.

Mike Simmons

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:50:20 -0400, "Rhino"
wrote:

Really? The novel, Childhood's End, is by Arthur C. Clarke. I always thought
Clarke had a reputation as a genuine scientist, not just a novelist. I had
expected accuracy from him.

In fact, Clarke identifies "NGS" as the "great National Geographic
Survey", which was identified as having been completed 50 years before
Jan looks up the reference- and certainly after the date the book was
written. So the reference is to a purely fictional catalog.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Clarke was a Sci-Fi writter and not beyond making something up, like in his
The City and the Stars he tells about the 7 Suns, 6 in a circle and the 7th
as the center and they where man made too.


--

The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Astronomy Net Online Gift Shop
http://www.cafepress.com/astronomy_net



"Rhino" wrote in message
.. .

Really? The novel, Childhood's End, is by Arthur C. Clarke. I always
thought
Clarke had a reputation as a genuine scientist, not just a novelist. I had
expected accuracy from him.

In 1953, looking up something like that catalog number would probably
have
been something you could only do at a major metropolitan library or
university with an astrophysics department. I assumed this reference was
basically an inside joke for the readers he had who were actually
astronomers....

Well, I guess I was wrong and the reference is bogus.

Thank you for clearing that up! Your note probably also explains why my
google search on the NGS number failed to work.

Rhino

On 2005-10-26, Greg Crinklaw wrote:
Rhino wrote:
The star mentioned in the book is identified as "NGS 549672"; if I'm not
mistaken, "NGS" refers to a particular star catalog (National Galactic
Survey?) and "549672" uniquely identifies a specific star.

I work with astronomical catalogs a lot and I'm sorry to say that there
doesn't seem to be any NGS catalog. The number is also way too big for
a catalog from the 50's (remember that's the pre-computer era), so I
think it's safe to say that it was simply made up. You are right about
how it would work though.

NGS 549672 appears to be an imaginary reference, but it isn't a
completely far-fetched idea. The big star catalogs (BD, SBD and CD)
of the 19th century totaled over a million stars and were done by
hand and visually, so a big catalog number is not impossible for 1953.
The National Geographic Society had the National Geographic Society -
Palomar Observatory Sky Survey going by 1953; therefore, the NGS could
be inspired by National Geographic Society. As far as I know a catalog
wasn't produced from the plates until the Hubble Guide Star Catalog
came out. I don't know whether there was any earlier idea to produce
a star catalog from the NGS-POSS plates. The Carte du Ciel project of
the early 20th century was planned to produce an all-sky photographic
atlas and catalog with millions of stars but that as far as I know the
project was never completed.

--
The night is just the shadow of the Earth.