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Is empty space infinite?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 12th 03, 08:45 PM
KlingvilleBill
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Default Is empty space infinite?

This is a serious question. Im not trying to be a troll. What is the latest
thinking on the scope of the universe? Does empty space really go on for ever
and ever (infinity)? The thought of it makes me feel very strange.
  #2  
Old December 12th 03, 09:14 PM
Sam Wormley
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Default Is empty space infinite?

KlingvilleBill wrote:

This is a serious question. Im not trying to be a troll. What is the latest
thinking on the scope of the universe? Does empty space really go on for ever
and ever (infinity)? The thought of it makes me feel very strange.



See Ned Wright's Cosmology Tutorial
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html

WMAP: Foundations of the Big Bang theory
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni.html

WMAP: Tests of Big Bang Cosmology
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest.html
  #3  
Old December 12th 03, 09:46 PM
variable magnitude
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Default Is empty space infinite?


"KlingvilleBill" wrote in message
...
This is a serious question. Im not trying to be a troll. What is the

latest
thinking on the scope of the universe?


the scope of the universe? for me that is a 10" equatorial newt at this
moment. ymmv!
:-)


  #4  
Old December 12th 03, 11:17 PM
Carsten A. Arnholm
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Default Is empty space infinite?

KlingvilleBill wrote:
This is a serious question. Im not trying to be a troll. What is the
latest thinking on the scope of the universe? Does empty space really
go on for ever and ever (infinity)? The thought of it makes me feel
very strange.


This is a serious answer. Would space be empty if it didn't go on for ever?
Would the thought of a wall a few million/billion lightyears away make you
feel any better? What would be behind that wall (authentic question asked to
me by my daughter, 10 years old).

Clear skies
Carsten A. Arnholm
http://home.online.no/~arnholm/astro/astro.htm
N59.776 E10.457

  #5  
Old December 13th 03, 07:03 AM
Frank Bov
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Default Is empty space infinite?

First off, the Big Bang created space, so no, space only exists in the
region of the Big Bang. Defining the region of the Big Bang is a
philosophical problem; how can you have a region that doesn't have any
space?

Second, given the Inflationary Theory of the Big Bang, the actual universe
is far larger than the observable universe. The observable universe is
roughly 14B light years in radius, but given that this perception is
independent of your location in the observable universe, the actual universe
must be far larger. You see, an observer 5B light years from us would also
see a 14B ly universe, implying that the universe is at least 19B ly, but
then an observer another 5 B ly from that observer would see a 14B ly
universe, implying that the universe is at least 24B ly, but then an
observer another 5 B ly from that observer . . . ad infinitum.

I wonder, does Inflation give a limit on how much bigger than cT the
universe actually got by 10^-36 sec?

Having fun,
Frank

"KlingvilleBill" wrote in message
...
This is a serious question. Im not trying to be a troll. What is the

latest
thinking on the scope of the universe? Does empty space really go on for

ever
and ever (infinity)? The thought of it makes me feel very strange.



  #6  
Old December 13th 03, 10:07 AM
variable magnitude
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Default Is empty space infinite?


"Frank Bov" wrote in message
...
First off, the Big Bang created space, so no, space only exists in the
region of the Big Bang. Defining the region of the Big Bang is a
philosophical problem; how can you have a region that doesn't have any
space?


region? what is that? never saw "region" defined in physics.

Second, given the Inflationary Theory of the Big Bang, the actual universe
is far larger than the observable universe.


according to that _theory_.

The observable universe is
roughly 14B light years in radius, but given that this perception is
independent of your location in the observable universe,
the actual universe
must be far larger.


why? can you explain this (I think not, as it is not true)

You see, an observer 5B light years from us would also
see a 14B ly universe, implying that the universe is at least 19B ly, but
then an observer another 5 B ly from that observer would see a 14B ly
universe, implying that the universe is at least 24B ly, but then an
observer another 5 B ly from that observer . . . ad infinitum.


no. think about living on a sphere (like we all do). the same argument is
valid: we can all see around us with a horizon say 10 km away, does that
mean the earth is infinite?



  #8  
Old December 13th 03, 12:19 PM
Bluewater
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Default Is empty space infinite?


"variable magnitude" wrote in message
...

"Frank Bov" wrote in message
...
First off, the Big Bang created space, so no, space only exists in the
region of the Big Bang. Defining the region of the Big Bang is a
philosophical problem; how can you have a region that doesn't have any
space?


region? what is that? never saw "region" defined in physics.

Second, given the Inflationary Theory of the Big Bang, the actual

universe
is far larger than the observable universe.


according to that _theory_.

The observable universe is
roughly 14B light years in radius, but given that this perception is
independent of your location in the observable universe,
the actual universe
must be far larger.


why? can you explain this (I think not, as it is not true)

You see, an observer 5B light years from us would also
see a 14B ly universe, implying that the universe is at least 19B ly,

but
then an observer another 5 B ly from that observer would see a 14B ly
universe, implying that the universe is at least 24B ly, but then an
observer another 5 B ly from that observer . . . ad infinitum.


no. think about living on a sphere (like we all do). the same argument is
valid: we can all see around us with a horizon say 10 km away, does that
mean the earth is infinite?


I am no expert on this one but I don't like this sort of argument simply
because you are rebutting without valid argument of your own. All you have
said is simple statement without supporting argument.

Your claims a

1. There is no region defined in physics.
Does that mean that no definition is non-existence

2. What's the other story that says about the size of universe?

3. Why do you think actual universe is not larger than we can observe?
You are saying it's not true then what is the truth

4. We know as a fact that the earth is not infinite.
You presuppose the fact we already know.
What is the fact you already know about universe regarding the size of
it?

I don't have any intention to inflame you but I really want you to enlighten
us with your theories and facts other than 10" equatorial newt.

Please don't say that anyone doesn't knows anything about the size so you
don't know.

Regards


  #9  
Old December 13th 03, 01:14 PM
variable magnitude
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Default Is empty space infinite?


"Bluewater" wrote in message
...

"variable magnitude" wrote in message
...

"Frank Bov" wrote in message
...
First off, the Big Bang created space, so no, space only exists in the
region of the Big Bang. Defining the region of the Big Bang is a
philosophical problem; how can you have a region that doesn't have any
space?


region? what is that? never saw "region" defined in physics.

Second, given the Inflationary Theory of the Big Bang, the actual

universe
is far larger than the observable universe.


according to that _theory_.

The observable universe is
roughly 14B light years in radius, but given that this perception is
independent of your location in the observable universe,
the actual universe
must be far larger.


why? can you explain this (I think not, as it is not true)

You see, an observer 5B light years from us would also
see a 14B ly universe, implying that the universe is at least 19B ly,

but
then an observer another 5 B ly from that observer would see a 14B ly
universe, implying that the universe is at least 24B ly, but then an
observer another 5 B ly from that observer . . . ad infinitum.


no. think about living on a sphere (like we all do). the same argument

is
valid: we can all see around us with a horizon say 10 km away, does that
mean the earth is infinite?


I am no expert on this one but I don't like this sort of argument simply
because you are rebutting without valid argument of your own. All you have
said is simple statement without supporting argument.

Your claims a

1. There is no region defined in physics.
Does that mean that no definition is non-existence


no, and I did not "claim" that at all. But I was just stating that the
statement about "region" is void, without definition of region. As "region"
is not a well known (if known at all) thing, I was saying to please supply a
definition. Without it, the statement has no meaning.

2. What's the other story that says about the size of universe?


I do not understand this question. There are many theories about the size of
the universe.

3. Why do you think actual universe is not larger than we can observe?
You are saying it's not true then what is the truth


I never claimed that the universe can not be larger than what we can
observe, please read more carefully. I was just showing a flaw in the given
argument. that is something different than saying the conclusion is untrue.
But the argument given did not support the conclusion.

4. We know as a fact that the earth is not infinite.
You presuppose the fact we already know.
What is the fact you already know about universe regarding the size

of
it?


I was just showing that the reasoning given is false, by showing that if you
apply the same reasoning to the situation on earth, you obtain an obviously
untrue conclusion.

I don't have any intention to inflame you but I really want you to

enlighten
us with your theories and facts other than 10" equatorial newt.


that was a joke. you seem to have misunderstood that one also.

Please don't say that anyone doesn't knows anything about the size so you
don't know.


I hope this helps.

perhaps reading a little about cosmology and some basic logic and reasoning
will also be helpful for you?



  #10  
Old December 13th 03, 04:36 PM
Mitch Alsup
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Default Is empty space infinite?

Finite but unbounded is the term used to describe the extent of space.

Space is not empty; and based on particle theory, if it were truely empty
it would create its own virtual partilce pairs. Every once in a while these
would interract and you would end end up with real particles in space.
Therefore, there is a minimum lowest pressure in a vacuum.
 




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