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New Marine Corp commercial....."Towards the Sound of Chaos"



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 28th 12, 04:07 PM posted to sci.military.naval,alt.military,sci.space.policy
Jonathan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 197
Default New Marine Corp commercial....."Towards the Sound of Chaos"


"Bill" wrote in message
...
In article bac94bf8-eab7-469d-9748-afc277a4d688
@er9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com, says...

On Mar 27, 7:17 am, Bill wrote:
In article 7e65b734-93fa-4a45-b79d-f214dcf585a8
@l18g2000vbx.googlegroups.com, says...

Afghanistan is politically messed up. It can be won on the ground as
Iraq was if the same policy is followed.

You know every imperial general since Alexander the Great thought that.

So far the Afghans have beaten them all...


Except it isn't imperial in the traditional sense.


Not from an Afghan's point of view.

Where they're standing there's absolutely no difference between NATO now
and the British a hundred years ago. We're just a lot less nasty than
the Russians, but they probably interpret that as weakness...

There is a huge
Afghan contingent with us.


There always is, it's South Asia, you can always find allies.



Isn't this question of what the people there want or need
the big problem? How is anyone to really know what
the public opinion is in a dictatorship? Until the people
can express their opinions in a credible way, no one
can answer that question, even the Afghans.



Alliances in South Asia are usually about who hates who rather than
anyone loving the invaders.

Heck the whole Anti-Taliban Northern
Alliance formed the core of the government that came into place in
2002.


And a right nasty gang of warlords and drug dealers they turned out to
be.

The people backed the Taliban because that lot raped and robbed at will
until a gang of students blew them out. Or don't you know what a
'talib' is?


Convincing the undecided people we're serious is key


What 'undecided people'?

and is what
happened in Iraq. Also, like Iraq, is setting up a gov't that can
continue and defend themselves, and provide training nd support to
them to get there.


They're US puppets.



The spiritual leader of the vast majority in Iraq
is Ayatollah Sistani, his word is still law there.
And from day one he was on our side, he wanted
to see Saddam overthrown and a democracy
in Iraq. In fact he constantly criticized Bush for
not bringing enough troops to keep the peace.
He also decided to have a parliamentary system
over our advice of an American system.

Sistani insisted we clear our Fallujah and for the
Big Push, he also stopped us from capturing Sadr
and on and on. And we're leaving when he tells us to.

Some could say the US military became a ..mercenary
force for the highest ranking Ayatollah in the region.

Who really was the puppet in Iraq?



I thought you were in the 'free and fair elections' business.



--
William Black


"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke
when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how
many Spanish sword and buckler men he could
beat single handed with a quarterstaff.



  #22  
Old March 28th 12, 04:09 PM posted to sci.military.naval,alt.military,sci.space.policy
Jonathan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 197
Default New Marine Corp commercial....."Towards the Sound of Chaos"


"Dennis" wrote in message
. 4.11...
Bill wrote:

Afghanistan is politically messed up. It can be won on the ground as
Iraq was if the same policy is followed.


Every imperial general since Alexander the Great has said as much.

The Afghans beat them all.


A recent Russian general said, 'Taking Tora Bora is quite a feat. I
should
know - I did it three times! But how do you keep it when you've got it?"



The reason we'll succeed where all the rest fails is that
everyone knows we're not planning on 'keeping' anything.




Dennis



  #23  
Old March 28th 12, 04:20 PM posted to sci.military.naval,alt.military.retired,sci.space.policy,alt.war.vietnam
Jonathan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 197
Default New Marine Corp commercial....."Towards the Sound of Chaos"


"Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." wrote in message
m...
bob haller wrote:
On Mar 26, 11:21 pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

Iraq is going OK except for...

Afghanistan is politically messed up. It can be won on the ground as
Iraq was if the same policy is followed.



neither is winnable and iraq is detoriating.


and Iraq is not over...the U.S. will leave...(the wars have cost us 3
trillion)...

but now every nation knows if it dares defy the U.S., it *must* have a
WMD.



And once they do, then the dictatorship can live on and on
like in N Korea. So when some dictatorship begins building
nukes, should we just look the other way and let the
people there suffer endlessly?

Or take that dictatorship out while we can?

Which is better for them and us? A world full
of rogue dictatorships armed with nukes, or
a world full of emerging democracies that
don't even need much of a military?

I know which side I'm on.


s









  #24  
Old March 28th 12, 08:34 PM posted to sci.military.naval,alt.military,sci.space.policy
Bill[_13_]
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Posts: 17
Default New Marine Corp commercial....."Towards the Sound of Chaos"

In article ,
says...

"Bill" wrote in message

There is a huge
Afghan contingent with us.


There always is, it's South Asia, you can always find allies.



Isn't this question of what the people there want or need
the big problem? How is anyone to really know what
the public opinion is in a dictatorship? Until the people
can express their opinions in a credible way, no one
can answer that question, even the Afghans.


True.

However Afghanistan, as I said in 2001 when it started, may be just
too difficult and we may well have to be satisfied with a friendly
dictator.

and is what
happened in Iraq. Also, like Iraq, is setting up a gov't that can
continue and defend themselves, and provide training nd support to
them to get there.


They're US puppets.



The spiritual leader of the vast majority in Iraq
is Ayatollah Sistani, his word is still law there.


Only if you're a Shia.

Of course the Suni population is currently effectively disenfranchised
for the heinous crime of sharing their religion/sect with Saddam.

But that won't last, Iran is Shia and the Saudis are Sunni and the US
traditionally likes its tame Arab tyrants to be Suni..

He also decided to have a parliamentary system
over our advice of an American system.


Ah, well you see presidential systems in Arab countries has only ever
produced tyrants.

A parliamentary system may not.

Possibly...

And there's absolutely no doubt at all that Islamic fanatic clerics do
worse under a murderous tyrant than under some form of representative
government.

Iraq is now more traditional and insular and theocratic than it ever was
under Saddam.

They're rushing back to the Middle Ages after making it to the beginning
of the Renaissance under Saddam...


--
William Black


"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke
when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how
many Spanish sword and buckler men he could
beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
  #26  
Old March 28th 12, 08:39 PM posted to sci.military.naval,alt.military,sci.space.policy
Andrew Swallow[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 83
Default New Marine Corp commercial....."Towards the Sound of Chaos"

On 28/03/2012 16:09, Jonathan wrote:
wrote in message
. 4.11...
Bill wrote:

Afghanistan is politically messed up. It can be won on the ground as
Iraq was if the same policy is followed.

Every imperial general since Alexander the Great has said as much.

The Afghans beat them all.


A recent Russian general said, 'Taking Tora Bora is quite a feat. I
should
know - I did it three times! But how do you keep it when you've got it?"



The reason we'll succeed where all the rest fails is that
everyone knows we're not planning on 'keeping' anything.


It is trivial for the men smoking the opium at the den to convert a boy
shooting a gun at the departing US soldiers into a battle that drove the
invaders away.

Andrew Swallow

  #27  
Old March 28th 12, 08:41 PM posted to sci.military.naval,alt.military.retired,sci.space.policy,alt.war.vietnam
Andrew Swallow[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 83
Default New Marine Corp commercial....."Towards the Sound of Chaos"

On 28/03/2012 16:20, Jonathan wrote:
"Dr. Vincent Quin, wrote in message
m...
bob haller wrote:
On Mar 26, 11:21 pm, "David E.
wrote:

Iraq is going OK except for...

Afghanistan is politically messed up. It can be won on the ground as
Iraq was if the same policy is followed.


neither is winnable and iraq is detoriating.


and Iraq is not over...the U.S. will leave...(the wars have cost us 3
trillion)...

but now every nation knows if it dares defy the U.S., it *must* have a
WMD.



And once they do, then the dictatorship can live on and on
like in N Korea. So when some dictatorship begins building
nukes, should we just look the other way and let the
people there suffer endlessly?


North Korea's turn will come. It is just that the oil states are a
higher priority.

Andrew Swallow


Or take that dictatorship out while we can?

Which is better for them and us? A world full
of rogue dictatorships armed with nukes, or
a world full of emerging democracies that
don't even need much of a military?

I know which side I'm on.


  #28  
Old March 28th 12, 09:31 PM posted to sci.military.naval,alt.military,sci.space.policy
Paul Madarasz[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default New Marine Corp commercial....."Towards the Sound of Chaos"

On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 20:35:50 +0100, Bill
wrote, perhaps among other things:

In article ,
says...

"Dennis" wrote in message
. 4.11...
Bill wrote:

Afghanistan is politically messed up. It can be won on the ground as
Iraq was if the same policy is followed.

Every imperial general since Alexander the Great has said as much.

The Afghans beat them all.

A recent Russian general said, 'Taking Tora Bora is quite a feat. I
should
know - I did it three times! But how do you keep it when you've got it?"



The reason we'll succeed where all the rest fails is that
everyone knows we're not planning on 'keeping' anything.


I hope you're right, I fear your president has decided that 'bringing
the boys home' is more important than winning.


Considering that there's nothing to "win", I (as an American who
served) certainly think that "bringing the boys (and girls) home is
paramount. Not one more death or maiming, please.
  #29  
Old March 28th 12, 09:37 PM posted to sci.military.naval,alt.military.retired,sci.space.policy,alt.war.vietnam
Paul Madarasz[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default New Marine Corp commercial....."Towards the Sound of Chaos"

On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:20:26 -0400, "Jonathan"
wrote, perhaps among other things:


"Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." wrote in message
om...
bob haller wrote:
On Mar 26, 11:21 pm, "David E. Powell"
wrote:

Iraq is going OK except for...

Afghanistan is politically messed up. It can be won on the ground as
Iraq was if the same policy is followed.


neither is winnable and iraq is detoriating.


and Iraq is not over...the U.S. will leave...(the wars have cost us 3
trillion)...

but now every nation knows if it dares defy the U.S., it *must* have a
WMD.



And once they do, then the dictatorship can live on and on
like in N Korea. So when some dictatorship begins building
nukes, should we just look the other way and let the
people there suffer endlessly?


Until we get rid of our nukes, yes. BTW, there are a lot of people
suffering endlessly here in the US. What do we do about them?

Or take that dictatorship out while we can?


I'm sure that a lot of people (me not being one of them) would like to
take us out, too.

Which is better for them and us? A world full
of rogue dictatorships armed with nukes, or
a world full of emerging democracies that
don't even need much of a military?

I know which side I'm on.


Put that way, I would agree. Depends on your definition of
"democracy", of course. We have enough rogue governments with nukes,
my country included.

I like my military (which I was a part of for three and a half years)
to do things like help out during natural disasters. The last war
that I thought was "just" was WWII. Everything since brought nothing
but shame for my country, in my eyes.


s








  #30  
Old March 29th 12, 01:17 AM posted to sci.military.naval,alt.military,sci.space.policy
Bill[_13_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default New Marine Corp commercial....."Towards the Sound of Chaos"

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 20:35:50 +0100, Bill
wrote, perhaps among other things:

In article ,
says...

"Dennis" wrote in message
. 4.11...
Bill wrote:

Afghanistan is politically messed up. It can be won on the ground as
Iraq was if the same policy is followed.

Every imperial general since Alexander the Great has said as much.

The Afghans beat them all.

A recent Russian general said, 'Taking Tora Bora is quite a feat. I
should
know - I did it three times! But how do you keep it when you've got it?"


The reason we'll succeed where all the rest fails is that
everyone knows we're not planning on 'keeping' anything.


I hope you're right, I fear your president has decided that 'bringing
the boys home' is more important than winning.


Considering that there's nothing to "win",


So why on earth did you all bother to go?

I (as an American who
served) certainly think that "bringing the boys (and girls) home is
paramount. Not one more death or maiming, please.


You are part of a representative democracy.

If you wish to change things it is open to you to take part in the
democratic process and do so.

Service in the military, no matter how distinguished, brings no
special powers, rights or responsibilities

--
William Black


"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke
when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how
many Spanish sword and buckler men he could
beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
 




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