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NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)
"columbiaaccidentinvestigation"
wrote: I stated "The point of Roger Boisjoly's information and affiliation with a group such as onlineethics.org is for all of us to benefit from his personal story to stop the launch of challenger, and prevent the tragedy that occurred jan 28 1986" Derek Lyons replied "Except - he didn't actually take any actual action to stop the launch and prevent the tragedy. When push came to shove - he folded. His actual message seems to be "you can claim an ethical victory even if you failed". (Or to put it even finer "it does not matter if people died, so long as you've done the minimum to salve you our conscience" Interesting critique of one mans actions derek, firstly I hope you may you never be faced with the burden Boisjoly and his colleagues have to bear for attempting to, but not being able to stop a tragedy from occurring, If Boisjoly & Co. had made a serious attempt to stop the launch - you'd have a point. But, it was work as usual. Slap up a few viewgraphs, write a few reports, make a few phone calls. But when push came to shove, and ethics _mattered_, they tossed their ethics to wind and folded like a house of cards. Now the historical account in the Rogers commission report shows boisjoly was talking to the right people, and presenting the correct evidence to postpone the cold weather launch of sts-51l on jan 28, 1986, but his advice was ignored by people who had the authority to overrule him, and did. Ethics isn't about advice - it's about standing firm and standing up. Boisjoly & Co. did niether. Period. D. -- Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
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NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)
Rand Simberg wrote: He has in the past. I recall one long one in which he was attempting to convince us that humans are natural vegetarians, and that we should switch to an all-fruit diet, based on dentition. Although I have four fangs that may argue against that fact, hooray for the Puppeteer effort; since all four of them have pretty much decayed and eroded away. Nevertheless, I will have you know that I can struggle one pound of cheese to the ground with my bare hands, and consume it entirely inside of an hour. Such is my innate power. Flanzan - Lord Of The cheddars |
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NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)
On 16 Nov 2006 13:59:38 -0800, "Eric Chomko" wrote:
Yes, you noticed it too? Yeah well, maybe his hatred for others will create like-minded allies? Huh? Why do you need allies? Geez. This is just usenet. If somebody bothers you, and filtering out their posts makes this a more enjoyable experience for you, just do it. It's pretty childish to try want to start a jihad over it. You'll just (rightly) end up in everybody else's killfiles as a result. Do what you need to do and then get over it. This kind of thing isn't very entertaining to disinterested bystanders. Dale P.S. If it empowers you to stop talking about it- yes, he is in my killfile. It wouldn't have been for long, but his idiotic fake e-mail address (he obviously doesn't actually know Yiddish) made me write him off as a person stuck in junior high school. I hope I see some evidence to the contrary one day, because he was often delightful to read (although several drinks beforehand usually helped- have you tried that? (apologies to the disinterested bystanders for that last bit) |
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NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)
Charlton Heston was in a movie where he battled zombies, he called
himself Omega Man,- perhaps OM sees him in that role. Keith Laumer wrote a story called Ultimax Man - which is nearly the last word in humanity! So, its sort of an Omega Man (OM) Penultimate Man (PU)? This story involves a criminal who was secretly abducted by an alien at the point of the criminals death by gunshot wound in a gangfight. The criminal is whisked to a retreat off the Northern shores of Greenland. There the alien revives him (a minor wound given his advanced technology) and trains him to his ultimate capacity. The reason the alien does this is that he wants to determine the strengths of humanity so as to complete a report to his superiors in advance of an invasion and subjugation of the human race within the next few decades to support the galactic empire. Cool descriptions of virtual reality and how its used to continuously train someone who is incarcerated. I wondered if 12 years or 16 years or 18 years of schooling could be compressed into 1 or 2 years this way? The hero escapes and finds himself roaming the galaxy with a band of aliens until he stumbles upon one of the first hominid - neanderthals - which turns out that due to certain capacities of the species, were all removed from Earth for important work throughout the galaxy iirc. The neanderthal he meets called Earth 'dirt' as I recall. Also lots of cool descriptions of aliens and so forth. The descriptions of an imperial order maintained by military might I found to be the only negative, since truly weird alien minds billions of years advanced to us, would likely not use a heirarchical system based on primate alpha male and lieutenants sytems used by bands of roaming primates. More likely a galactic society would operate by emergent systems - which would be more akin the the operation of an ecology than a social order. A 5 credit hour class meets for 5 days a week and has about 40 minutes of solid training time. That's a total exposure of 3 hours and 20 minutes per week. A 10 week course has a total exposure of 33 hours and 20 minutes. With the right hardware, and 16 hours per day dedicated to training - this much material could be presented in 2 days. 20 credit hours could be presented in a week. A year's college training could be got through in three weeks. Its interesting that with the right kind of medical/computer/VR technology, we might be able to get through a year's college training during our break and leave the rest of the year to party! lol. Four years of college could be gotten through in 12 weeks. A summer's vacation. 16 years of college could be gotten through in 48 weeks. Allowing for meals, exercise, medication and so forth - six months could take anyone at any level and bring them to any level of training - assuming humans are infinitely plastic in their behavior - which some might argue they are not.. If people paid say $10,000 per month for this training - they'd get a college degree in 3 months. At this rate of payment, $1 million training machine could be supported. Now, As far as the impracticality of many many rocket nozzles are concerned, I would suggest those who say such is impractical look at this counter-proof imaged here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:S...et_engines.jpg and its flawless operation represented here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:S...A-2_launch.jpg and its assembly here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:S...t_assembly.jpg Eric Chomko wrote: Nicholas Fitzpatrick wrote: In article .com, Eric Chomko wrote: I want to know who has you in their killfile, OM. A lot of us don't use killfiles ... at least not on people, I admit I use a killfile for one group that simply deletes all cross-posts. Besides, neither does OM ... he just spouts on about it, but if you watch, eventually, he can't resist replying to stuff that someone on his "killfile" posted. Yes, that is the fun part. You seem to have an inflated opinion of yourself. That he does - he's just a small-minded person full of hate at people, based on race, colour, creed, sexuality, and if they agree with him or not. Your website sucks and you don't use your real name. I basically think that you are a sheep that tires to act like a wolf. Well, in his defence, it's no secret, and he will tell you himself. OM stands for Omega Man (why I don't know ... perhaps it's part of his superego), and his real name is Bob Mosley ... with one of those Yankee number things on the end, or something. Yankee number things? You mean Roman numerals? Also I note that you killfile those that don't share your political views, unless they are Henry that is. Yes, he does seem to have his tongue rather deep up Henry's ass ... I've always thought that was a little odd ... Yes, you noticed it too? Yeah well, maybe his hatred for others will create like-minded allies? Eric Nick |
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NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)
Craig Fink wrote: Since when have Turkeys been added to the export-control hoops? Well, I guess you could be right????? I'll say this for you, Mr. Fink... once that hook's set you sure do put up one mighty spectacular fight. Hell, Hemingway himself would have been proud of you. :-D Pat |
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NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)
Derek Lyons wrote:
Except - he didn't actually take any actual action to stop the launch and prevent the tragedy. When push came to shove - he folded. With due respect, I suggest that you're confusing engineering certainty with professional opinion. As a result, you're being a bit harsh. If Boisjoly and co. had detailed calculations or data in hand from which any reasonable person skilled in the art would have interpreted to indicate probable failure due to insufficient or negative design margin, then they would have been obligated to stay their ground at all cost and your criticism would be most justified. The problem, as I understand it, is that the cold temperatures on launch day were a new scenario and Boisjoly and co. only suspected that a problem existed. They didn't know for certain. (It was a strong suspicion, but the trends in what data existed weren't fully appreciated until after the fact.) In the absence of detailed calculations or data, others with detailed technical knowledge in the area disagreed. It then became a matter of professional opinion and, yes, engineers often have to agree to disagree. And further study might have shown that Boisjoly and co. had been overcautious. Had Boisjoly and co. deferred to a client or contractor with less technical skill than they had in the interests of expediency, then, once again, your criticism would be justified. Had they not argued loudly and forcefully that the matter required further attention, your criticism would be justified. However, they were overruled by more senior individuals within their own organization and by a client/customer with considerable expertise of their own in the area. That Boisjoly and co. had insufficient time to assemble the detailed calculations or data, convince themselves that their concerns were justified, and present their case, all in the few hours before the launch took place cannot be held against them. -- Dave Michelson |
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NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)
Three weeks, the CAIB was giving NASA a pop quiz and NASA wanted to do
another Boeing Study. On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 02:26:27 +0000, Craig Fink wrote: Three weeks, three days, three hours. If there is a problem, you start by throwing the most promising things into the test facility first. What was first, (water), second (tools), third?????? They didn't have three weeks. If they had, then the Turkey might have made it in the test facility. That is, if they had one. Are you saying it takes more that three weeks to fire up the testing facility? -- Craig Fink Courtesy E-Mail Welcome @ |
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NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)
"Nicholas Fitzpatrick" wrote in message ... You know, those odd things Yankees put after their name sometimes that seems so pretentious. Senior, Junior, IIII, etc. "If Tuesday Weld married Frederick March's grandson, she'd be Tuesday March the Second." -- Fozzie Bear |
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NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)
"Pat Flannery" wrote in message ... Although I have four fangs that may argue against that fact, hooray for the Puppeteer effort; since all four of them have pretty much decayed and eroded away. Nevertheless, I will have you know that I can struggle one pound of cheese to the ground with my bare hands, and consume it entirely inside of an hour. Such is my innate power. The trick there is not to leave it in the fridge for so long that it walks out by itself. |
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NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)
Derek stated "If Boisjoly & Co. had made a serious attempt to stop
the launch - you'd have a point. But, it was work as usual. Slap up a few viewgraphs, write a few reports, make a few phone calls. But when push came to shove, and ethics _mattered_, they tossed their ethics to wind and folded like a house of cards .Ethics isn't about advice - it's about standing firm and standing up. Boisjoly & Co. did niether. Period." Monday morning armchair quarterbacking, and using hindsight to say what should have been done is a rather interesting place to be critiquing the history of somebodys actions. You present an interesting opinion, but never the less not it is backed by historical facts, so you might try a little reading of the rogers commission as you memory is not serving you properly by decribing the events that took place leading up to jan 28 1986 tragic loss of challenger in the manner you have. Then read the diaz report to the Columbia accident board, and lets see what one man (boisjoly) could have done to change the decision of people of disagreed with him, and had more authority than him. Both the rogers report and diaz report document the structural problems that discourage open communication up the and down the descision making line ( so you might try to present how you would get around such a structure in your quarterback playmaking description). Once again I hope you never have to bear that burden (even though you seem to trivialize others efforts), as boisjoly has said that a person is only human and can only do so much, how much would you do dered? Furthermore Derek you might want to learn a little bit more about ethics from the onlineethics.org website, as you have some issues confused, so please read the citations below and post how you might have handeled the situation yourself. citations (*1) http://history.nasa.gov/rogersrep/v1ch4.htm The Dynamic Characteristics of the Field Joint Seal "The discussion of static factors which affect joint performance is based on the assumption that motor segments remain perfectly round, and that stacked segments are always a perfectly straight column. At launch the boosters are subjected to forces which bend and twist them. These forces cause physical changes in the shape of the boosters, actually squashing them out-of-round and bending them along their entire length. The dynamic effects of this out-of-roundness are most significant just after booster ignition when the hold-down bolts have been released because in the previous 6.6 seconds the boosters have actually been bent forward by the thrust from the main engines. The elastic energy stored in the entire system is then released, inducing a bending vibration in the boosters. This bending causes the case to change its shape from circular to elliptical, the maximum out-of-roundness occurring on the 045-315 degree line on the outside of the right booster. This deflection is a consequence of a vibration and occurs at a frequency of about 3 cycles per second. The same occurs in the left booster, only the deflection axis is oriented differently, being a mirror image of that which takes place in the right side. The dynamic effects cause an increase in the joint rotation, and, hence, increase the gap between the tang and clevis by about 10 percent. Another dynamic load results from the geometry of the struts which attach the booster to the external tank. Strut P 12 is attached to the booster at about the 314 degree point and imposes additional inertial forces on the booster which tend to additionally increase the gap by 10 to 21 percent." (*2) Rogers commission report chapter VII Casing Joint Design page 192 & 193 par "Upon ignition of the Solid Rocket Motor fuel the operating pressure increases to 922 psi at 40 degrees F within a little over one half second (0.648 sec).16 The effect of this pressure increase is to cause the casings to bulge out around their midsections while being constrained by the thicker steel sections at the ends, much like a can of soda after freezing. The casings change shape during the buildup of motor pressure. This bulging has an effect on the joint. As in the case of the frozen soda can, the wall of the casing near the joint is no longer vertical, or perpendicular to the bottom, but angles out to meet the larger diameter in the center of the casing. NASA calls this change in angle at the joint "joint rotation." This joint rotation is a component of an overall spacing problem that includes: changes caused by casing wear and tear experienced during refurbishment; case growth (swelling) from pressurizing the casings; distortion that occurs during shipment of the loaded casings; and the physical handling of the casings during stacking operations. The joint rotation problem was aggravated when the steel casings were made thinner to achieve a reduction in weight and thus an increase in payload. The rotation problem was further aggravated by changing the design of the propellant geometry to achieve greater thrust. This increased the pressure within the casings and thereby increased the "gap opening"17. These changes compromised the integrity of the joint seals because joint rotation increases the spacing (gap) between the tang and the O-ring grooves in the clevis" 17. The Light Weight Casings, first used on STS-6, had thinner casing walls than the standard steel casings. Light weight casings permitted flight with heavier payloads. On STS-8, NASA began using the High Performance Motor (HPM) which developed higher internal pressures while using the light weight casings. The purpose of the HPM was to further increase payload capacity" 18 , "Evaluation of TWR-12690 CD, Test Plan for Space Shuttle SRM Lightweight inter Segment Joint Verification, dated June 10,1980", EP 25 (80-70), June 16, 1980, p. 2." (*3) http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1992075284.pdf NSTS-22301, page 4 "SOLID ROCKET BOOSTER The STS 61-C flight utilized lightweight solid rocket motor (SRM) cases. SRM propulsion performance was normal and within specification limits, with propellant burn rates for both SRM's near predicted values. Solid rocket booster (SRB) thrust differentials were within specification throughout the flight.... A postflight evaluation of the SRM structure to determine the extent of damage revealed the following significant items: a. A gas path was noted at the 154-degree position of the aft field joint of the left S_M. Soot was found from the 140-degree to the 178-degree position, and soot was found in the primary groove from the 68-degree to the 183-degree (115 degrees arc) position. C-ring damagewas noted at the 154-degree position with a maximumerosion depth of 0.00_ inch and erosion length of 3.5 inches. The 0-ring was affected by heat over a 14-inch length in this area. b. A gas path was found from the 273.6-degree to the 309.6-degree (36 degrees arc) position of the left S_Mnozzle joint. Soot was found in the primary 0-ring groove over the entire 360-degree circumference. A potential impingement point was located at the 302.4-degree point; however, no 0-ring damage was found. c. A gas path was found at the 162-degree point with soot in the primary 0-ring groove from the lOS-degree to the 220-degree (112 degrees arc) point on the right SRM nozzle joint. 0-ring damage was found at the 162-degree point with the maximum erosion depth being 0.011 inch and the erosion length being 8 inches. The 0-rlng was affected by heat over a 26-1nch length in this area. d. A gas path was found on the outer surface of the igniter at the 130-degree point of the left SRM. Soot was found on the aft side of the outer Gaskoseal, approaching the primary sea! over a 70-degree arc (130 to 200 degrees), and on the outer edge of the inner Gasko seal over a 130-degree arc (ii0 to 240 degrees), however, no seal damage was found. e. A gas path was found on the outer surface of the igniter at the 250-degree point of the right S_. Soot was found on the inside edge of the outer Gasko seal over the entire 360-degree circumference, however, it did not progress beyond the edge of the seal. There was a slight discoloration of the metal on both sides of the seal over the entire 360-degree circumference." *4 http://www.nasa.gov/columbia/caib/PD...BOOK2/G11A.PDF page 105 *5 Boijoly's information http://www.onlineethics.org/moral/bo.../RB-intro.html Open sharing of information is crucial to improving everybody's understanding of the universe around us. Tom Derek Lyons wrote: "columbiaaccidentinvestigation" wrote: I stated "The point of Roger Boisjoly's information and affiliation with a group such as onlineethics.org is for all of us to benefit from his personal story to stop the launch of challenger, and prevent the tragedy that occurred jan 28 1986" Derek Lyons replied "Except - he didn't actually take any actual action to stop the launch and prevent the tragedy. When push came to shove - he folded. His actual message seems to be "you can claim an ethical victory even if you failed". (Or to put it even finer "it does not matter if people died, so long as you've done the minimum to salve you our conscience" Interesting critique of one mans actions derek, firstly I hope you may you never be faced with the burden Boisjoly and his colleagues have to bear for attempting to, but not being able to stop a tragedy from occurring, If Boisjoly & Co. had made a serious attempt to stop the launch - you'd have a point. But, it was work as usual. Slap up a few viewgraphs, write a few reports, make a few phone calls. But when push came to shove, and ethics _mattered_, they tossed their ethics to wind and folded like a house of cards. Now the historical account in the Rogers commission report shows boisjoly was talking to the right people, and presenting the correct evidence to postpone the cold weather launch of sts-51l on jan 28, 1986, but his advice was ignored by people who had the authority to overrule him, and did. Ethics isn't about advice - it's about standing firm and standing up. Boisjoly & Co. did niether. Period. D. -- Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
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