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NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)



 
 
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  #91  
Old November 17th 06, 07:47 AM posted to sci.space.shuttle,sci.space.history
Derek Lyons
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Posts: 2,999
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)

"columbiaaccidentinvestigation"
wrote:
I stated "The point of Roger Boisjoly's information and affiliation
with a group such as onlineethics.org is for all of us to benefit from
his personal story to stop the launch of challenger, and prevent the
tragedy that occurred jan 28 1986"

Derek Lyons replied "Except - he didn't actually take any actual action
to stop the launch and prevent the tragedy. When push came to shove -
he folded. His actual message seems to be "you can claim an ethical
victory even if you failed". (Or to put it even finer "it does not
matter if people died, so long as you've done the minimum to salve you
our conscience"

Interesting critique of one mans actions derek, firstly I hope you may
you never be faced with the burden Boisjoly and his colleagues have to
bear for attempting to, but not being able to stop a tragedy from
occurring,


If Boisjoly & Co. had made a serious attempt to stop the launch -
you'd have a point. But, it was work as usual. Slap up a few
viewgraphs, write a few reports, make a few phone calls.

But when push came to shove, and ethics _mattered_, they tossed their
ethics to wind and folded like a house of cards.

Now the historical account in the Rogers commission report
shows boisjoly was talking to the right people, and presenting the
correct evidence to postpone the cold weather launch of sts-51l on jan
28, 1986, but his advice was ignored by people who had the authority to
overrule him, and did.


Ethics isn't about advice - it's about standing firm and standing up.
Boisjoly & Co. did niether. Period.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
  #92  
Old November 17th 06, 08:12 AM posted to sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)



Rand Simberg wrote:

He has in the past. I recall one long one in which he was attempting
to convince us that humans are natural vegetarians, and that we should
switch to an all-fruit diet, based on dentition.



Although I have four fangs that may argue against that fact, hooray for
the Puppeteer effort; since all four of them have pretty much decayed
and eroded away.
Nevertheless, I will have you know that I can struggle one pound of
cheese to the ground with my bare hands, and consume it entirely inside
of an hour.
Such is my innate power.

Flanzan - Lord Of The cheddars
  #93  
Old November 17th 06, 08:22 AM posted to sci.space.history
Dale[_1_]
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Posts: 278
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)

On 16 Nov 2006 13:59:38 -0800, "Eric Chomko" wrote:

Yes, you noticed it too? Yeah well, maybe his hatred for others will
create like-minded allies?


Huh? Why do you need allies? Geez. This is just usenet. If somebody
bothers you, and filtering out their posts makes this a more enjoyable
experience for you, just do it. It's pretty childish to try want to start a
jihad over it. You'll just (rightly) end up in everybody else's killfiles as
a result.

Do what you need to do and then get over it. This kind of thing isn't
very entertaining to disinterested bystanders.

Dale

P.S. If it empowers you to stop talking about it- yes, he is in my killfile.
It wouldn't have been for long, but his idiotic fake e-mail address (he
obviously doesn't actually know Yiddish) made me write him off as
a person stuck in junior high school. I hope I see some evidence to the
contrary one day, because he was often delightful to read (although
several drinks beforehand usually helped- have you tried that?

(apologies to the disinterested bystanders for that last bit)
  #94  
Old November 17th 06, 08:47 AM posted to sci.space.history
[email protected]
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Posts: 278
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)

Charlton Heston was in a movie where he battled zombies, he called
himself Omega Man,- perhaps OM sees him in that role.

Keith Laumer wrote a story called Ultimax Man - which is nearly the
last word in humanity! So, its sort of an Omega Man (OM) Penultimate
Man (PU)?

This story involves a criminal who was secretly abducted by an alien at
the point of the criminals death by gunshot wound in a gangfight. The
criminal is whisked to a retreat off the Northern shores of Greenland.
There the alien revives him (a minor wound given his advanced
technology) and trains him to his ultimate capacity. The reason the
alien does this is that he wants to determine the strengths of humanity
so as to complete a report to his superiors in advance of an invasion
and subjugation of the human race within the next few decades to
support the galactic empire.

Cool descriptions of virtual reality and how its used to continuously
train someone who is incarcerated. I wondered if 12 years or 16 years
or 18 years of schooling could be compressed into 1 or 2 years this
way?

The hero escapes and finds himself roaming the galaxy with a band of
aliens until he stumbles upon one of the first hominid - neanderthals -
which turns out that due to certain capacities of the species, were all
removed from Earth for important work throughout the galaxy iirc. The
neanderthal he meets called Earth 'dirt' as I recall.

Also lots of cool descriptions of aliens and so forth.

The descriptions of an imperial order maintained by military might I
found to be the only negative, since truly weird alien minds billions
of years advanced to us, would likely not use a heirarchical system
based on primate alpha male and lieutenants sytems used by bands of
roaming primates.

More likely a galactic society would operate by emergent systems -
which would be more akin the the operation of an ecology than a social
order.

A 5 credit hour class meets for 5 days a week and has about 40 minutes
of solid training time. That's a total exposure of 3 hours and 20
minutes per week. A 10 week course has a total exposure of 33 hours and
20 minutes. With the right hardware, and 16 hours per day dedicated to
training - this much material could be presented in 2 days. 20 credit
hours could be presented in a week. A year's college training could be
got through in three weeks.

Its interesting that with the right kind of medical/computer/VR
technology, we might be able to get through a year's college training
during our break and leave the rest of the year to party! lol.

Four years of college could be gotten through in 12 weeks. A summer's
vacation.

16 years of college could be gotten through in 48 weeks. Allowing for
meals, exercise, medication and so forth - six months could take anyone
at any level and bring them to any level of training - assuming humans
are infinitely plastic in their behavior - which some might argue they
are not..

If people paid say $10,000 per month for this training - they'd get a
college degree in 3 months.

At this rate of payment, $1 million training machine could be
supported.

Now,

As far as the impracticality of many many rocket nozzles are concerned,
I would suggest those who say such is impractical look at this
counter-proof imaged here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:S...et_engines.jpg

and its flawless operation represented here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:S...A-2_launch.jpg

and its assembly here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:S...t_assembly.jpg





Eric Chomko wrote:
Nicholas Fitzpatrick wrote:
In article .com,
Eric Chomko wrote:
I want to know who has you in their killfile, OM.


A lot of us don't use killfiles ... at least not on people, I admit
I use a killfile for one group that simply deletes all cross-posts.
Besides, neither does OM ... he just spouts on about it, but if you watch,
eventually, he can't resist replying to stuff that someone on his
"killfile" posted.


Yes, that is the fun part.


You seem to have an inflated opinion of yourself.


That he does - he's just a small-minded person full of hate at people,
based on race, colour, creed, sexuality, and if they agree with him
or not.

Your website sucks and you don't use your
real name. I basically think that you are a sheep that tires to act
like a wolf.


Well, in his defence, it's no secret, and he will tell you himself.
OM stands for Omega Man (why I don't know ... perhaps it's part of his
superego), and his real name is Bob Mosley ... with one of those Yankee
number things on the end, or something.


Yankee number things? You mean Roman numerals?

Also I note that you killfile those that don't share your political
views, unless they are Henry that is.


Yes, he does seem to have his tongue rather deep up Henry's ass ... I've
always thought that was a little odd ...


Yes, you noticed it too? Yeah well, maybe his hatred for others will
create like-minded allies?

Eric


Nick


  #95  
Old November 17th 06, 11:21 AM posted to sci.space.shuttle,sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)



Craig Fink wrote:

Since when have Turkeys been added to the export-control hoops? Well, I
guess you could be right?????




I'll say this for you, Mr. Fink... once that hook's set you sure do put
up one mighty spectacular fight.
Hell, Hemingway himself would have been proud of you. :-D

Pat
  #96  
Old November 17th 06, 11:33 AM posted to sci.space.shuttle,sci.space.history
Dave Michelson
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Posts: 512
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)

Derek Lyons wrote:

Except - he didn't actually take any actual action to stop the launch
and prevent the tragedy. When push came to shove - he folded.


With due respect, I suggest that you're confusing engineering certainty
with professional opinion. As a result, you're being a bit harsh.

If Boisjoly and co. had detailed calculations or data in hand from which
any reasonable person skilled in the art would have interpreted to
indicate probable failure due to insufficient or negative design margin,
then they would have been obligated to stay their ground at all cost and
your criticism would be most justified.

The problem, as I understand it, is that the cold temperatures on launch
day were a new scenario and Boisjoly and co. only suspected that a
problem existed. They didn't know for certain. (It was a strong
suspicion, but the trends in what data existed weren't fully appreciated
until after the fact.) In the absence of detailed calculations or data,
others with detailed technical knowledge in the area disagreed. It then
became a matter of professional opinion and, yes, engineers often have
to agree to disagree. And further study might have shown that Boisjoly
and co. had been overcautious.

Had Boisjoly and co. deferred to a client or contractor with less
technical skill than they had in the interests of expediency, then, once
again, your criticism would be justified. Had they not argued loudly
and forcefully that the matter required further attention, your
criticism would be justified. However, they were overruled
by more senior individuals within their own organization and by a
client/customer with considerable expertise of their own in the area.
That Boisjoly and co. had insufficient time to assemble the detailed
calculations or data, convince themselves that their concerns were
justified, and present their case, all in the few hours before the
launch took place cannot be held against them.

--
Dave Michelson

  #97  
Old November 17th 06, 12:13 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle,sci.space.history
Craig Fink
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Posts: 1,858
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)

Three weeks, the CAIB was giving NASA a pop quiz and NASA wanted to do
another Boeing Study.


On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 02:26:27 +0000, Craig Fink wrote:

Three weeks, three days, three hours. If there is a problem, you start by
throwing the most promising things into the test facility first. What was
first, (water), second (tools), third??????

They didn't have three weeks. If they had, then the Turkey might have made
it in the test facility. That is, if they had one. Are you saying it takes
more that three weeks to fire up the testing facility?

--
Craig Fink
Courtesy E-Mail Welcome @



  #98  
Old November 17th 06, 02:47 PM posted to sci.space.history
Neil Gerace
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Posts: 326
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)


"Nicholas Fitzpatrick" wrote in message
...


You know, those odd things Yankees put after their name sometimes that
seems so pretentious. Senior, Junior, IIII, etc.


"If Tuesday Weld married Frederick March's grandson, she'd be Tuesday March
the Second."

-- Fozzie Bear


  #99  
Old November 17th 06, 02:49 PM posted to sci.space.history
Neil Gerace
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Posts: 326
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)


"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...

Although I have four fangs that may argue against that fact, hooray for
the Puppeteer effort; since all four of them have pretty much decayed and
eroded away.
Nevertheless, I will have you know that I can struggle one pound of cheese
to the ground with my bare hands, and consume it entirely inside of an
hour.
Such is my innate power.


The trick there is not to leave it in the fridge for so long that it walks
out by itself.


  #100  
Old November 17th 06, 03:41 PM posted to sci.space.shuttle,sci.space.history
columbiaaccidentinvestigation
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Posts: 1,344
Default NASA Astronaut on Columbia Repair (and others)

Derek stated "If Boisjoly & Co. had made a serious attempt to stop
the launch - you'd have a point. But, it was work as usual. Slap up a
few viewgraphs, write a few reports, make a few phone calls. But when
push came to shove, and ethics _mattered_, they tossed their ethics to
wind and folded like a house of cards .Ethics isn't about advice - it's
about standing firm and standing up. Boisjoly & Co. did niether.
Period."

Monday morning armchair quarterbacking, and using hindsight to say what
should have been done is a rather interesting place to be critiquing
the history of somebodys actions. You present an interesting opinion,
but never the less not it is backed by historical facts, so you might
try a little reading of the rogers commission as you memory is not
serving you properly by decribing the events that took place leading up
to jan 28 1986 tragic loss of challenger in the manner you have. Then
read the diaz report to the Columbia accident board, and lets see what
one man (boisjoly) could have done to change the decision of people of
disagreed with him, and had more authority than him. Both the rogers
report and diaz report document the structural problems that discourage
open communication up the and down the descision making line ( so you
might try to present how you would get around such a structure in your
quarterback playmaking description). Once again I hope you never have
to bear that burden (even though you seem to trivialize others
efforts), as boisjoly has said that a person is only human and can only
do so much, how much would you do dered? Furthermore Derek you might
want to learn a little bit more about ethics from the onlineethics.org
website, as you have some issues confused, so please read the citations
below and post how you might have handeled the situation yourself.

citations

(*1)
http://history.nasa.gov/rogersrep/v1ch4.htm
The Dynamic Characteristics of the Field Joint Seal
"The discussion of static factors which affect joint performance is
based on the assumption that motor segments remain perfectly round, and
that stacked segments are always a perfectly straight column. At launch
the boosters are subjected to forces which bend and twist them. These
forces cause physical changes in the shape of the boosters, actually
squashing them out-of-round and bending them along their entire length.
The dynamic effects of this out-of-roundness are most significant just
after booster ignition when the hold-down bolts have been released
because in the previous 6.6 seconds the boosters have actually been
bent forward by the thrust from the main engines. The elastic energy
stored in the entire system is then released, inducing a bending
vibration in the boosters. This bending causes the case to change its
shape from circular to elliptical, the maximum out-of-roundness
occurring on the 045-315 degree line on the outside of the right
booster. This deflection is a consequence of a vibration and occurs at
a frequency of about 3 cycles per second. The same occurs in the left
booster, only the deflection axis is oriented differently, being a
mirror image of that which takes place in the right side. The dynamic
effects cause an increase in the joint rotation, and, hence, increase
the gap between the tang and clevis by about 10 percent. Another
dynamic load results from the geometry of the struts which attach the
booster to the external tank. Strut P 12 is attached to the booster at
about the 314 degree point and imposes additional inertial forces on
the booster which tend to additionally increase the gap by 10 to 21
percent."


(*2)
Rogers commission report chapter VII Casing Joint Design
page 192 & 193 par
"Upon ignition of the Solid Rocket Motor fuel the operating pressure
increases to 922 psi at 40 degrees F within a little over one half
second (0.648 sec).16 The effect of this pressure increase is to cause
the casings to bulge out around their midsections while being
constrained by the thicker steel sections at the ends, much like a can
of soda after freezing. The casings change shape during the buildup of
motor pressure. This bulging has an effect on the joint. As in the case
of the frozen soda can, the wall of the casing near the joint is no
longer vertical, or perpendicular to the bottom, but angles out to meet
the larger diameter in the center of the casing. NASA calls this change
in angle at the joint "joint rotation." This joint rotation is a
component of an overall spacing problem
that includes: changes caused by casing wear and tear experienced
during refurbishment; case growth (swelling) from pressurizing the
casings; distortion that occurs during shipment of the loaded casings;
and the physical handling of the casings during stacking operations.
The joint rotation problem was aggravated when the steel casings were
made thinner to achieve a reduction in weight and thus an increase in
payload. The rotation problem was further aggravated by changing the
design of the propellant geometry to achieve greater thrust. This
increased the pressure within the casings and thereby increased the
"gap opening"17. These changes compromised the integrity of the
joint seals because joint rotation increases the spacing (gap) between
the tang and the O-ring grooves in the clevis"

17. The Light Weight Casings, first used on STS-6, had thinner casing
walls than the standard steel casings. Light weight casings permitted
flight with heavier payloads. On STS-8, NASA began using the High
Performance Motor (HPM) which developed higher internal pressures while
using the light weight casings. The purpose of the HPM was to further
increase payload capacity"
18 , "Evaluation of TWR-12690 CD, Test Plan for Space Shuttle SRM
Lightweight inter Segment Joint Verification, dated June 10,1980", EP
25 (80-70), June 16, 1980, p. 2."



(*3)
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1992075284.pdf
NSTS-22301, page 4
"SOLID ROCKET BOOSTER
The STS 61-C flight utilized lightweight solid rocket motor (SRM)
cases. SRM
propulsion performance was normal and within specification limits, with
propellant burn rates for both SRM's near predicted values. Solid
rocket booster (SRB) thrust differentials were within specification
throughout the flight....

A postflight evaluation of the SRM structure to determine the extent of
damage
revealed the following significant items:
a. A gas path was noted at the 154-degree position of the aft field
joint of the left S_M. Soot was found from the 140-degree to the
178-degree position, and soot was found in the primary groove from the
68-degree to the 183-degree (115 degrees arc) position. C-ring
damagewas noted at the 154-degree position with a maximumerosion depth
of 0.00_ inch and erosion length of 3.5 inches. The 0-ring was affected
by heat over a 14-inch length in this area.
b. A gas path was found from the 273.6-degree to the 309.6-degree (36
degrees arc) position of the left S_Mnozzle joint. Soot was found in
the primary 0-ring groove over the entire 360-degree circumference. A
potential impingement point was located at the 302.4-degree point;
however, no 0-ring damage was found.
c. A gas path was found at the 162-degree point with soot in the
primary 0-ring groove from the lOS-degree to the 220-degree (112
degrees arc) point on the right SRM nozzle joint. 0-ring damage was
found at the 162-degree point with the maximum erosion depth being
0.011 inch and the erosion length being 8 inches. The 0-rlng was
affected by heat over a 26-1nch length in this area.
d. A gas path was found on the outer surface of the igniter at the
130-degree point of the left SRM. Soot was found on the aft side of the
outer Gaskoseal, approaching the primary sea! over a 70-degree arc (130
to 200 degrees), and on the outer edge of the inner Gasko seal over a
130-degree arc (ii0 to 240 degrees), however, no seal damage was found.
e. A gas path was found on the outer surface of the igniter at the
250-degree point of the right S_. Soot was found on the inside edge of
the outer Gasko seal over the entire 360-degree circumference, however,
it did not progress beyond the edge of the seal. There was a slight
discoloration of the metal on both sides of the seal over the entire
360-degree circumference."


*4
http://www.nasa.gov/columbia/caib/PD...BOOK2/G11A.PDF
page 105


*5
Boijoly's information
http://www.onlineethics.org/moral/bo.../RB-intro.html



Open sharing of information is crucial to improving everybody's
understanding of the universe around us.
Tom
Derek Lyons wrote:
"columbiaaccidentinvestigation"
wrote:
I stated "The point of Roger Boisjoly's information and affiliation
with a group such as onlineethics.org is for all of us to benefit from
his personal story to stop the launch of challenger, and prevent the
tragedy that occurred jan 28 1986"

Derek Lyons replied "Except - he didn't actually take any actual action
to stop the launch and prevent the tragedy. When push came to shove -
he folded. His actual message seems to be "you can claim an ethical
victory even if you failed". (Or to put it even finer "it does not
matter if people died, so long as you've done the minimum to salve you
our conscience"

Interesting critique of one mans actions derek, firstly I hope you may
you never be faced with the burden Boisjoly and his colleagues have to
bear for attempting to, but not being able to stop a tragedy from
occurring,


If Boisjoly & Co. had made a serious attempt to stop the launch -
you'd have a point. But, it was work as usual. Slap up a few
viewgraphs, write a few reports, make a few phone calls.

But when push came to shove, and ethics _mattered_, they tossed their
ethics to wind and folded like a house of cards.

Now the historical account in the Rogers commission report
shows boisjoly was talking to the right people, and presenting the
correct evidence to postpone the cold weather launch of sts-51l on jan
28, 1986, but his advice was ignored by people who had the authority to
overrule him, and did.


Ethics isn't about advice - it's about standing firm and standing up.
Boisjoly & Co. did niether. Period.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL


 




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