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Let's Colonize the Universe



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 20th 04, 09:17 PM
Rudolph_X
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Default Let's Colonize the Universe

Folks complain about over-population, of too many people and not enough
jobs, resources, etc. Let's face it, people are not going to stop
procreating, so the over-population problem is just going to contine to
escalate.

Historically, the solution governments used to control over population
was to kill off vast numbers of peoples, usually by starting great wars
where millions were culled off untill population levels reached
manageable proportions.

We need to devise methods and provide incentives to governments and
peoples to stop the killing and colonize the Universe instead.

The colonization of Mars would be a great place to start.

Just imagine if all those hundreds of billions of dollars spend annually
on wars and killings were instead used to send folks to Mars. Our
governments would no longer need to be involved in the wholesale
slaughter of human beings... and they could be focusing their creativity
on much nobler purposes instead.

  #2  
Old March 20th 04, 11:09 PM
Tom McDonald
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Default Let's Colonize the Universe

Rudolph_X wrote:
Folks complain about over-population, of too many people and not enough
jobs, resources, etc. Let's face it, people are not going to stop
procreating, so the over-population problem is just going to contine to
escalate.

Historically, the solution governments used to control over population
was to kill off vast numbers of peoples, usually by starting great wars
where millions were culled off untill population levels reached
manageable proportions.


Rudy,

Nope. Historically, when the population grew, ways were found
to increase food production to meet the growing need. Sometimes
great famines put off the need to increase food production; but
in the long run, ways were found to produce more food.

Wars have little if any affect on the rate of population
growth. The two World Wars killed scores of millions of people;
and the result was a population boom after the wars ended.


We need to devise methods and provide incentives to governments and
peoples to stop the killing and colonize the Universe instead.


I don't disagree, but colonizing the solar system isn't going
to soak up significant numbers of people.

Assume that we can get the cost per person of getting to Mars
down to, say, $1 million. Let's take a low estimate of the
increase in population over the next 35 years at 2.5 billion.
That would put the price of shipping them all off-world at $2.5
quadrillion for the lot. That's about $71 trillion per year.

Not going to happen.


The colonization of Mars would be a great place to start.


Yes, but not to reduce surplus population.


Just imagine if all those hundreds of billions of dollars spend annually
on wars and killings were instead used to send folks to Mars. Our
governments would no longer need to be involved in the wholesale
slaughter of human beings... and they could be focusing their creativity
on much nobler purposes instead.


Well, since your predicate ('war=population control') is false,
and you haven't run the numbers, this doesn't seem like a dog
that will hunt.

Tom McDonald
  #3  
Old March 21st 04, 02:16 AM
Rudolph_X
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Default Let's Colonize the Universe



Tom McDonald wrote:

Not going to happen.


Yes, I believe it can be done, and it can be done in an intelligent,
innovative, and affordable way.


  #4  
Old March 21st 04, 06:08 AM
Tom McDonald
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Default Let's Colonize the Universe

Rudolph_X wrote:



Tom McDonald wrote:


Not going to happen.


Yes, I believe it can be done, and it can be done in an intelligent,
innovative, and affordable way.


Rudy,

Please give details of how you think it would go.

Tom McDonald
  #5  
Old March 21st 04, 08:04 AM
Rudolph_X
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Default Let's Colonize the Universe



Tom McDonald wrote:
Rudolph_X wrote:



Tom McDonald wrote:


Not going to happen.


Yes, I believe it can be done, and it can be done in an intelligent,
innovative, and affordable way.


Rudy,

Please give details of how you think it would go.

Tom McDonald


It can be done simply by redirecting our resources and efforts away from
inhumane and destructive activities, and by directing them toward more
creative and humane goals. It is simply a matter of having more
appropriate goals.

However, the problem in the world today is also that our governments are
not responsive to the goals and aspirations of the common people whom
they are supposed to be representing. Our degenerate governments serve
small minded myopic self interest groups instead, and serve their own
greed and lust for sex and power, instead of doing what is good and
right for mankind at large.

The first item on my to do list would be to change the 'image of man'
and bring it in line with the reality of mankind's unlimited potential.

To be heroic we must believe in heroic ideals. Unfortunately, our
'leaders' are mostly spiritual degenerates of the lowest order. But, be
assured efforts are under way to remedy the situation, by a higher
authority.

  #6  
Old March 21st 04, 11:56 AM
George Dishman
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Default Let's Colonize the Universe


"Rudolph_X" wrote in message
...
Folks complain about over-population, of too many people and not enough
jobs, resources, etc. Let's face it, people are not going to stop
procreating, so the over-population problem is just going to contine to
escalate.

Historically, the solution governments used to control over population
was to kill off vast numbers of peoples, usually by starting great wars
where millions were culled off untill population levels reached
manageable proportions.

We need to devise methods and provide incentives to governments and
peoples to stop the killing and colonize the Universe instead.

The colonization of Mars would be a great place to start.


Assuming we could do that tomorrow and put as many people
on Mars as there are on Earth, if the population is doubling
every 50 years then all you have done is postpone the problem
for 50 years, and then you have twice the number of people
procreating and kids to cull. If we could do the same for
another 6 planets in the Solar System, you can buy another
100 years after Mars (8 planets = 2^3 = 3*50 years).

Then what? Another star system of 8 planets in the next 50
years, two more in the following 50 and so on? In the meantime
the people left on each planet still have to solve the social
problems of living in a finite-resource environment. All the
colonisation of Mars would do is give us an excuse for not
facing the real problem and leaving it for the next generation,
something at which politicians are quite good enough already.

In reality population growth is slowing and nobody knows why
so the current concern is a population collapse. You need to
update your doom scenario.

George


  #7  
Old March 21st 04, 02:34 PM
jacob navia
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Default Let's Colonize the Universe

Very good answer George

jacob


  #8  
Old March 21st 04, 05:06 PM
db
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Default Let's Colonize the Universe

Rudolph_X wrote:

Folks complain about over-population, of too many people and not enough
jobs, resources, etc. Let's face it, people are not going to stop
procreating, so the over-population problem is just going to contine to
escalate.

Historically, the solution governments used to control over population
was to kill off vast numbers of peoples, usually by starting great wars
where millions were culled off untill population levels reached
manageable proportions.

We need to devise methods and provide incentives to governments and
peoples to stop the killing and colonize the Universe instead.

The colonization of Mars would be a great place to start.

Just imagine if all those hundreds of billions of dollars spend annually
on wars and killings were instead used to send folks to Mars. Our
governments would no longer need to be involved in the wholesale
slaughter of human beings... and they could be focusing their creativity
on much nobler purposes instead.



the current US president is going to do both: total, perpetual war -and- going
to mars.
money is no object, since "Reagan proved deficits don't matter" (according to
Cheney).

db
  #9  
Old March 21st 04, 09:17 PM
Rudolph_X
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Posts: n/a
Default Let's Colonize the Universe



George Dishman wrote:
"Rudolph_X" wrote in message
...

Folks complain about over-population, of too many people and not enough
jobs, resources, etc. Let's face it, people are not going to stop
procreating, so the over-population problem is just going to contine to
escalate.

Historically, the solution governments used to control over population
was to kill off vast numbers of peoples, usually by starting great wars
where millions were culled off untill population levels reached
manageable proportions.

We need to devise methods and provide incentives to governments and
peoples to stop the killing and colonize the Universe instead.

The colonization of Mars would be a great place to start.



Assuming we could do that tomorrow and put as many people
on Mars as there are on Earth, if the population is doubling
every 50 years then all you have done is postpone the problem
for 50 years, and then you have twice the number of people
procreating and kids to cull. If we could do the same for
another 6 planets in the Solar System, you can buy another
100 years after Mars (8 planets = 2^3 = 3*50 years).

Then what? Another star system of 8 planets in the next 50
years, two more in the following 50 and so on? In the meantime
the people left on each planet still have to solve the social
problems of living in a finite-resource environment. All the
colonisation of Mars would do is give us an excuse for not
facing the real problem and leaving it for the next generation,
something at which politicians are quite good enough already.

In reality population growth is slowing and nobody knows why
so the current concern is a population collapse. You need to
update your doom scenario.

George



You have to take into account that new innovations will change the
formula. Your calculations are based on the old faulty premise that no
new innovations will arise to help alleviate the problem.

Also, folks certainly know why population growths might temporarily be
in decline. They delcine for the same reasons now as in the past:
conditions are not right for the populations to grow.

We have vast numbers of peoples who are unemployed, and even more who
are under employed. We have entire generations of youth infested with
rampant venerial diseases, spreading even now as we speak. We have
record breaking numbers of the population incarcerated and engaging in
unspeakable sexual perversions. We have all kinds of new diseases like
AIDS and a whole host of other newer diseases decimating populations
world wide.

We have pesticides and pollution in the air and water, and gender
altering hormones in our foods inhibiting natural reproduction. We are
deluged with drugs of every kind imaginable insidiously altering our
biological functions.

And of course, we have wars, and the crime rates, murders, etc., is
always rising higer and higher. And, the list goes on and on... yet
despite all this, the population continues to grow, with an occasional
dip in growth rates.

Nevertheless, mankind will continue to grow and will colonize the
Universe, or die trying. Where else is there to go? What else is there
to do?

  #10  
Old March 21st 04, 09:56 PM
George Dishman
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Posts: n/a
Default Let's Colonize the Universe


"Rudolph_X" wrote in message
...


George Dishman wrote:
"Rudolph_X" wrote in message
...

Folks complain about over-population, of too many people and not enough
jobs, resources, etc. Let's face it, people are not going to stop
procreating, so the over-population problem is just going to contine to
escalate.

Historically, the solution governments used to control over population
was to kill off vast numbers of peoples, usually by starting great wars
where millions were culled off untill population levels reached
manageable proportions.

We need to devise methods and provide incentives to governments and
peoples to stop the killing and colonize the Universe instead.

The colonization of Mars would be a great place to start.



Assuming we could do that tomorrow and put as many people
on Mars as there are on Earth, if the population is doubling
every 50 years then all you have done is postpone the problem
for 50 years, and then you have twice the number of people
procreating and kids to cull. If we could do the same for
another 6 planets in the Solar System, you can buy another
100 years after Mars (8 planets = 2^3 = 3*50 years).

Then what? Another star system of 8 planets in the next 50
years, two more in the following 50 and so on? In the meantime
the people left on each planet still have to solve the social
problems of living in a finite-resource environment. All the
colonisation of Mars would do is give us an excuse for not
facing the real problem and leaving it for the next generation,
something at which politicians are quite good enough already.

In reality population growth is slowing and nobody knows why
so the current concern is a population collapse. You need to
update your doom scenario.


You have to take into account that new innovations will change the
formula. Your calculations are based on the old faulty premise that no
new innovations will arise to help alleviate the problem.


No, they merely demonstrate that colonisation of other planets
could never be a solution to overpopulation. If it does turn
into a problem then we must find other approaches, "new
innovations" as you call them, to solve it.

Also, folks certainly know why population growths might temporarily be
in decline.


There is evidence of a significant and progressive decrease in
male fertility worldwide lasting for many decades and nobody
knows why. Other factors are known, for example:

They delcine for the same reasons now as in the past:
conditions are not right for the populations to grow.

We have vast numbers of peoples who are unemployed, and even more who
are under employed. We have entire generations of youth infested with
rampant venerial diseases, spreading even now as we speak. We have
record breaking numbers of the population incarcerated and engaging in
unspeakable sexual perversions. We have all kinds of new diseases like
AIDS and a whole host of other newer diseases decimating populations
world wide.


When I last saw a documentary on this a few years ago, the
lowest birth rate was in Italy, and it was primarily because
young 'professional' couples were choosing to have only one
or even no children in order not to disrupt their careers.
The problem was worst with top salary female managers. You
really should find out about your subject before airing your
prejudices.

We have pesticides and pollution in the air and water, and gender
altering hormones in our foods inhibiting natural reproduction. We are
deluged with drugs of every kind imaginable insidiously altering our
biological functions.


That is where the search for a cause of the fertility problems
was focussing, last I heard.

And of course, we have wars, and the crime rates, murders, etc., is
always rising higer and higher. And, the list goes on and on... yet
despite all this, the population continues to grow, with an occasional
dip in growth rates.


It is not an "occasional dip" the evidence was for a steady
decline in the rate over some 40 to 50 years which was still
continuing and unless checked would result in a population
that would start to shrink around the middle of this century.
As I say though, this was a few years ago so I may be out of
date.

Nevertheless, mankind will continue to grow and will colonize the
Universe, or die trying. Where else is there to go? What else is there
to do?


Humans have lived on a single planet for their entire history
and it hasn't been a problem, and the vast majority of the
population will be quite happy to go on doing that. I am sure
we will eventually send out probes and explore beyond our
system, but in the meantime we still have to alter our social,
economic and political structures to come to terms with the
fact that we live on a finite surface.

George


 




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