Mercury swallowed by Sun, loss of solar radiation?? Theory of Mass Extinctions due to decline of SolarRadiation

The Krakatoa volcanic activity is a great gauge to use on estimating
the Siberian
flats and the Deccan flats activities of the Permian and Cretaceous.

But we lack a gauge for estimating how much cooler the Sun shines and
how much
less radiation should a comet stream be swallowed by the Sun. What if
Shoemaker-Levy comet stream had been swallowed by the Sun vice Jupiter
then would we
now have experienced colder winters and cooler summers due to the
decrease of
Solar radiation as the Sun digests the comet stream?

How much of a decrease in Solar Radiation would occur if one of the
largest
asteroids were swallowed by the Sun? Would Earth then begin a Ice Age?

And the big question, what if Mercury were swallowed by the Sun, would
that trigger such a loss of Solar Radiation as the Sun cooled down
that Earth would
begin experiencing mass extinction on the order of the Permian mass
extinction where more than 60% of species gone.

I do not know if physics has equations for telling how a fusion ball
like the Sun would cool down and emit less radiation if a ball were
dropped into the fusion
fire? I suppose TFTR still operates and can provide some calculations
of cool down when a foreign object scaled to the size of Mercury
versus Sun were dropped
into TFTR. I suppose physics has all sorts of answers as to the cool
down of a
chemical fire when a cold object is dropped. We can simulate a fusion
fire and
the dropping of a scaled down Mercury and observe what happens.

Has there ever been an astronomical observation of the Sun swallowing
massive objects such as a set of comets and has anyone observed
whether the Earth cooled
down as a result of the Sun cooling down?

Another test would be to observe whether a small spacecraft that is
swallowed by the Sun actually decreases Solar radiation? Have any of
our spacecraft been swallowed by the Sun and any recording of whether
the temperature of the Sun lowered and whether Solar radiation
decreased?

Archimedes Plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

In sci.physics, Archimedes Plutonium

wrote
on 11 Aug 2003 02:40:41 -0700
:
The Krakatoa volcanic activity is a great gauge to use on estimating
the Siberian
flats and the Deccan flats activities of the Permian and Cretaceous.

But we lack a gauge for estimating how much cooler the Sun shines and
how much
less radiation should a comet stream be swallowed by the Sun. What if
Shoemaker-Levy comet stream had been swallowed by the Sun vice Jupiter
then would we
now have experienced colder winters and cooler summers due to the
decrease of
Solar radiation as the Sun digests the comet stream?

How much of a decrease in Solar Radiation would occur if one of the
largest
asteroids were swallowed by the Sun? Would Earth then begin a Ice Age?

Good question.

Time to crunch a comet -- and some numbers relating thereto.

Sun: 1.99 * 10^30 kg.

Sun solar output (total): 3.94 * 10^26 W.

Sun temperatu 5800 K.

Sun radius: 6.95 * 10^8 m.

Comet: various but probably a few km in diameter; ice core would
probably vaporize near the Sun anyway but let's pretend.

OK, 3 km radius comet hurtling towards certain disaster somewhere
in the Sun's photosphere. Time to evacuate humanity? 3 km radius,
1.13 * 10^14 m^3 of material. Since ice is 0.92 g/mL, or 920 kg
per m^3, we get 1.04 * 10^17 kg.

That's quite a bit of ice by Earthly standards, but the Sun would
barely notice it, masswise.

Now let's vaporize that ice and heat it to 5800 K. We'll assume
0 C, even though this is laughable anyway (quick, how hot is
Mercury's day side?).

Heat of fusion: 3.33 * 10^5 J/kg, or 3.46 * 10^22 J.

Since pressure is very low this is almost immediately followed
by heat of vaporization.

Heat of vaporization: 2.26 * 10^6 J/kg, or 2.35 * 10^23 J

We are now at 373 K at the very most.

The specific heat of steam is 2.02 * 10^3 J/kg K. The amount
of energy:

(5800K - 373K) * (2.02 * 10^3 J/kg K) * 1.04 * 10^17 kg = 1.14E24 J

Total: 1.41E24 J.

Now, there are some issues with the Sun itself. Were this
distributed uniformly across the Sun's surface the Sun
might decrease power output for a few microseconds, but
it's not. We therefore have to compute the insolation
across the comet; as an approximation we merely compare
cross-sectional areas at a certain radius.

The Sun's total surface area (assuming the Sun is a hot, monstrous
billiard ball, which is OK for this problem) is 6.07 * 10^18 m^2.
The comet's cross-sectional area is 1/4 its total surface
area (area of circle = pi * r^2; area of sphere = 4 * pi * r^2)
and is 2.83 * 10^7 m^2. Insolation across that surface area as
the comet smacks the billiard ball is
(2.83 * 10^7 / 6.07 * 10^18) * 3.94 * 10^26 W = 1.84 * 10^15 W.

Comet? What comet? Maybe one might notice something for
a significant fraction of a year if one's looking at the
right place. It certainly wouldn't cause an Ice Age.

[rest crunched as well]

--
#191,
It's still legal to go .sigless.

Stelios Zacharias wrote in message . ..
On 11 Aug 2003 02:40:41 -0700,
(Archimedes Plutonium) wrote:


And the big question, what if Mercury were swallowed by the Sun, would
that trigger such a loss of Solar Radiation as the Sun cooled down
that Earth would
begin experiencing mass extinction on the order of the Permian mass
extinction where more than 60% of species gone.

May I? Thanks.

The sun is very very big. Comets, spacecraft and Mercury are very
very small. The sun is also very very hot.

From http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/features...s/sun/sun.html ,
we get that the sun has a mass of:

1.989 x 10^33 g

and a mean temperature of:

5777 K


Mercury, from
http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/features...y/mercury.html
has a mass of:

0.3302 x 10^27 g

and a temperature of:

440 K


If the sun were a bath-tub of hot water, and mercury an ice-cube,
(ie - if we ignore the sun's creation of heat from fusion, etc.)
the effect of introducing a body six million times less massive
and having a temperature about 13 times less, will reduce the
overall temperature of the sun by one 450,000 th - or by 0.0125
K.

Not really too much. Comets may be colder than Mercury - but they
are a hell of a lot smaller. Even so - let's posit a comet at 10
K but the mass of Mercury, entering the sun.

Mass difference remains at about 6 million time, temperature is
now 600 times different, thereby reducing the sun's temperature
by 0.55 K. Again, a tiny amount - but note that 10 K is very very
cold, and a Mercury sized comet is pretty unlikely.

Hope this helps. Although not sure what it has got to do with
Geology.

Cheers,
Stelios

A good problem thinker and solver does not look at a problem and says
to himself what numbers do I crunch in order to get the desired result
pleased with at the end.

We do not take the case of a bathtub full of boiling water and add one
ice cube. We do take the case of a fusion tokamak where you enter into
the hot plasma a BB sized object and see how much of the temperature
drops.

The proper analogy for the Sun is that of a hot outdoor barbeque grill
with its hot charcoal. Now, if you drop some ashes from a cigarette or
cigar onto the hot charcoal it will cool them slightly. That is probably
what happens in the daily swallowing up by the Sun of dust and debris
in its daily traverse. But, now, if you drop the ashes of an ashtray
into the charcoal it is going to cool them down considerably.

So if Mercury is swallowed by the Sun and given the huge amount of metal
that Mercury contains then the heat of the Sun will vaporize some of that
metal and Mercury will act like that ashtray of many ashes dropped into
a charcoal barbecue grill.

If a large metallic asteroid was swallowed by the Sun would also decrease the
Sun temperature considerably.

Archimedes Plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

The Ghost In The Machine wrote in message ...
In sci.physics, Archimedes Plutonium

wrote
on 11 Aug 2003 02:40:41 -0700
:
The Krakatoa volcanic activity is a great gauge to use on estimating
the Siberian
flats and the Deccan flats activities of the Permian and Cretaceous.

But we lack a gauge for estimating how much cooler the Sun shines and
how much
less radiation should a comet stream be swallowed by the Sun. What if
Shoemaker-Levy comet stream had been swallowed by the Sun vice Jupiter
then would we
now have experienced colder winters and cooler summers due to the
decrease of
Solar radiation as the Sun digests the comet stream?

How much of a decrease in Solar Radiation would occur if one of the
largest
asteroids were swallowed by the Sun? Would Earth then begin a Ice Age?

Good question.

Time to crunch a comet -- and some numbers relating thereto.

Sun: 1.99 * 10^30 kg.

Sun solar output (total): 3.94 * 10^26 W.

Sun temperatu 5800 K.

Sun radius: 6.95 * 10^8 m.

Comet: various but probably a few km in diameter; ice core would
probably vaporize near the Sun anyway but let's pretend.

OK, 3 km radius comet hurtling towards certain disaster somewhere
in the Sun's photosphere. Time to evacuate humanity? 3 km radius,
1.13 * 10^14 m^3 of material. Since ice is 0.92 g/mL, or 920 kg
per m^3, we get 1.04 * 10^17 kg.

That's quite a bit of ice by Earthly standards, but the Sun would
barely notice it, masswise.

Now let's vaporize that ice and heat it to 5800 K. We'll assume
0 C, even though this is laughable anyway (quick, how hot is
Mercury's day side?).

Heat of fusion: 3.33 * 10^5 J/kg, or 3.46 * 10^22 J.

Since pressure is very low this is almost immediately followed
by heat of vaporization.

Heat of vaporization: 2.26 * 10^6 J/kg, or 2.35 * 10^23 J

We are now at 373 K at the very most.

The specific heat of steam is 2.02 * 10^3 J/kg K. The amount
of energy:

(5800K - 373K) * (2.02 * 10^3 J/kg K) * 1.04 * 10^17 kg = 1.14E24 J

Total: 1.41E24 J.

Now, there are some issues with the Sun itself. Were this
distributed uniformly across the Sun's surface the Sun
might decrease power output for a few microseconds, but
it's not. We therefore have to compute the insolation
across the comet; as an approximation we merely compare
cross-sectional areas at a certain radius.

The Sun's total surface area (assuming the Sun is a hot, monstrous
billiard ball, which is OK for this problem) is 6.07 * 10^18 m^2.
The comet's cross-sectional area is 1/4 its total surface
area (area of circle = pi * r^2; area of sphere = 4 * pi * r^2)
and is 2.83 * 10^7 m^2. Insolation across that surface area as
the comet smacks the billiard ball is
(2.83 * 10^7 / 6.07 * 10^18) * 3.94 * 10^26 W = 1.84 * 10^15 W.

Comet? What comet? Maybe one might notice something for
a significant fraction of a year if one's looking at the
right place. It certainly wouldn't cause an Ice Age.

[rest crunched as well]

Like the other poster, it seems as though before you wrote your reply you
had your mind made up as to what the end result you like it to be and
give numbers for that conclusion.

Where you should start at is Tokamak fusion plasma machines and how much
they are affected by a single BB entered into the chamber once it is at
peak temperatures. It affects it so much that the Tokamak temperature drops
by more than 1/2.

I am not saying that a comet plunging into the Sun is going to drop the Sun's
radiation by 1/2.

What I am saying is that if you plunge a heavy metal asteroid or the planet
Mercury into the Sun and as the sun melts and vaporizes that metal it begins
to gum up the Sun's interior fusion nuclear furnace. And although it may not
drop the Solar radiation by 1/2 which all the metal of Mercury could possible
achieve. Anyway, such a physical act is way more than enough to drop the Sun's
temperature and create a global Ice Age on Earth.

Shoemaker-Levy was not metallic and was small compared to say the largest
metallic asteroid.

You should redo your calculations with a large metallic asteroid and once it
plunges into the Sun compute its melting and then vaporization as to gumming
up the Sun's interior to the point where it interfers with the fusion of hydrogen
and once this cooling of the Sun begins then it has a rippling cascade effect
upon other fusion processes such that the Solar Radiation is significantly cut.

Archimedes Plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

"Archimedes Plutonium" wrote in message
m...
The Ghost In The Machine wrote in
message ...

Stop this crap. You have no idea what you are talking about! Comets strike
the sun many times during the year. They have no effect whatsoever on the
sun's output. Go find a career in a field about which you actually know
something and stop posting these troll messages.

(Archimedes Plutonium) writes:

The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
In sci.physics, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
(snip)
How much of a decrease in Solar Radiation would occur if one of the
largest asteroids were swallowed by the Sun? Would Earth then begin a
Ice Age?

Good question.

Time to crunch a comet -- and some numbers relating thereto.

Sun: 1.99 * 10^30 kg.

Sun solar output (total): 3.94 * 10^26 W.

Sun temperatu 5800 K.

Sun radius: 6.95 * 10^8 m.

Comet: various but probably a few km in diameter; ice core would
probably vaporize near the Sun anyway but let's pretend.

OK, 3 km radius comet hurtling towards certain disaster somewhere
in the Sun's photosphere. Time to evacuate humanity? 3 km radius,
1.13 * 10^14 m^3 of material. Since ice is 0.92 g/mL, or 920 kg
per m^3, we get 1.04 * 10^17 kg.

That's quite a bit of ice by Earthly standards, but the Sun would
barely notice it, masswise.

Now let's vaporize that ice and heat it to 5800 K. We'll assume
0 C, even though this is laughable anyway (quick, how hot is
Mercury's day side?).

Heat of fusion: 3.33 * 10^5 J/kg, or 3.46 * 10^22 J.

Since pressure is very low this is almost immediately followed
by heat of vaporization.

Heat of vaporization: 2.26 * 10^6 J/kg, or 2.35 * 10^23 J

We are now at 373 K at the very most.

The specific heat of steam is 2.02 * 10^3 J/kg K. The amount
of energy:

(5800K - 373K) * (2.02 * 10^3 J/kg K) * 1.04 * 10^17 kg = 1.14E24 J

Total: 1.41E24 J.

Now, there are some issues with the Sun itself. Were this
distributed uniformly across the Sun's surface the Sun
might decrease power output for a few microseconds, but
it's not. We therefore have to compute the insolation
across the comet; as an approximation we merely compare
cross-sectional areas at a certain radius.

The Sun's total surface area (assuming the Sun is a hot, monstrous
billiard ball, which is OK for this problem) is 6.07 * 10^18 m^2.
The comet's cross-sectional area is 1/4 its total surface
area (area of circle = pi * r^2; area of sphere = 4 * pi * r^2)
and is 2.83 * 10^7 m^2. Insolation across that surface area as
the comet smacks the billiard ball is
(2.83 * 10^7 / 6.07 * 10^18) * 3.94 * 10^26 W = 1.84 * 10^15 W.

Comet? What comet? Maybe one might notice something for
a significant fraction of a year if one's looking at the
right place. It certainly wouldn't cause an Ice Age.

[rest crunched as well]

Like the other poster, it seems as though before you wrote your reply you
had your mind made up as to what the end result you like it to be and
give numbers for that conclusion.

No doubt he did indeed know what the result would be before he did the math;
it's rather obvious to anyone who's got any kind of a grasp on the relative
sizes of the various solar system objects. The numbers he gave are
presumably [caveat: I haven't double-checked the math] the *actual* numbers.

Where you should start at is Tokamak fusion plasma machines and how much
they are affected by a single BB entered into the chamber once it is at
peak temperatures. It affects it so much that the Tokamak temperature drops
by more than 1/2.

BBs in tokamak reactors seems like a complete non-sequitur, but what the hey,
let's play another round of your game. Assume for the sake of the argument
that popping a BB in a tokamak is analogous to plunging a large rocky planet
into the sun (which it really isn't in real life).

The mass of the Sun divided by the mass of Mercury is about 6 million.
A typical BB weighs perhaps a fifth of a gram.
Do you have 1200 kg of plasma in your tokamak?
Oh dear... well, how much plasma do you in fact have?
And how big would Mercury have to be to have an analogous effect?

I am not saying that a comet plunging into the Sun is going to drop the
Sun's radiation by 1/2.

Good!

What I am saying is that if you plunge a heavy metal asteroid or the planet
Mercury into the Sun and as the sun melts and vaporizes that metal it
begins to gum up the Sun's interior fusion nuclear furnace. And although it
may not drop the Solar radiation by 1/2 which all the metal of Mercury
could possible achieve. Anyway, such a physical act is way more than enough
to drop the Sun's temperature and create a global Ice Age on Earth.

No. If Mercury fell into the Sun, it would not affect solar output enough
for anyone to notice. The metal plasmas from Mercury would take time
measured in geological eras to reach to the core, too.

Shoemaker-Levy was not metallic and was small compared to say the largest
metallic asteroid.

True. Not very relevant.

You should redo your calculations with a large metallic asteroid and once
it plunges into the Sun compute its melting and then vaporization as to
gumming up the Sun's interior to the point where it interfers with the
fusion of hydrogen and once this cooling of the Sun begins then it has a
rippling cascade effect upon other fusion processes such that the Solar
Radiation is significantly cut.

Why don't you try it yourself? That was high school math.

Archimedes Plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Methethethethe hethethethethe, Chris Waddle.
--
"the real gems are buried." -- GT

(Archimedes Plutonium) wrote in message om...
(snip)

Where you should start at is Tokamak fusion plasma machines and how much
they are affected by a single BB entered into the chamber once it is at
peak temperatures. It affects it so much that the Tokamak temperature drops
by more than 1/2.


I never thought a day would come where the tokamak machines can answer
important
questions such as how much of a contaminant can lower the temperature
by 50%.

The important question here relates to the mass extinction of the
Permian and
Cretaceous. How big of a ball falling into the Sun will cut the solar
radiation
by 20% and cause Ice Ages on Earth.

And what material is the best to slow down or stop fusion reactions in
the Sun?

Is it lead? And how big of a ball of lead would cut solar radiation by
20%? About the size of Mercury? And how would it work? Would the lead
vaporize and thus form a blanket inside the Sun and impede the fusion
of hydrogen? Or perhaps there is another weak-point in the fusion
reactions in the Sun for which some other material would be best in
achieving a Sun cooldown.

Question: What is the difference in radiation between the summertime
and the wintertime by the Sun. Is it a 20% reduction in Solar
radiation that distinguishes winter from summer (due to the 23 degree
tilt). I am wondering how
much of a loss in Solar radiation would create a global Ice Age which
the Permian
probably was.

Archimedes Plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

"Bored Huge Krill" wrote in message
...
a side question:

I'd seen an earlier post in this thread suggesting that the Sun in fact
swallows many comets. I'm curious as to why that should be.

Because there are a lot of comets that we didn't know about until the SOHO
satellite was put up. It monitors the sun constantly. It has spotted many
comets striking the sun.

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/gallery/LASCO/

George,
thanks for the reply. Actually, I wasn't questioning that such impacts
occur, rather I wanted to understand the mechanics that might cause them to
happen. Are comets typically interacting significantly with other bodies
besides the Sun?

Regards
Krill



"George" wrote in message
news

"Bored Huge Krill" wrote in message
...
a side question:

I'd seen an earlier post in this thread suggesting that the Sun in fact
swallows many comets. I'm curious as to why that should be.

Because there are a lot of comets that we didn't know about until the SOHO
satellite was put up. It monitors the sun constantly. It has spotted
many
comets striking the sun.

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/gallery/LASCO/

The least said in this case the better...
It is like spitting against a strong wind...

Regards,
Joe Rat

George wrote in message
...

"Archimedes Plutonium" wrote in message
m...
The Ghost In The Machine wrote in
message ...

Stop this crap. You have no idea what you are talking about! Comets
strike
the sun many times during the year. They have no effect whatsoever on the
sun's output. Go find a career in a field about which you actually know
something and stop posting these troll messages.