Before the Big Bang?

"Ahmed Ouahi, Architect" wrote in message
...
Mr English!

English!?... Does it belongs to your mother, whether, what about yours,
or
you do a just see an Arab, ...

Whether you are an Arab or not is not of the slightest
concern to me, if you are curious about astronomy or
cosmology then we share that interest and I will be
_delighted_ to discuss those subjects with you.

... with an extremelly great visions than ever you
could get in your existence, no matter what you would try, because, it is
a
very simple, Arabs, they have had learned you everything, and shows to all
of you, what the life is all about, no matter the way, you are a
definitely
trying to turn the human minds, along your stupidity.

However, do you see, in the meantime, how and the way, that the things are
so simple, to skip any psychological problem!?

If you want to discuss astronomy, cosmology or nucleogenesis
(or abiogenesis as it is relevant to this thread) then I
will be happy to do so. As it is there is nothing on any of
those topics or anything else of relevance to this astronomy
group in what you have written above.

George

"Ioannis" wrote in message
news:1158001258.528482@athprx04...
"Radium" wrote in message
oups.com...

Hi:

What happened before the big bang?

Sadly, its a question that can't be answered, yet its so interesting.

Troll-o-Meter:

-----------------
| | | | | | | | | |

For those interested in a serious look at the question:

http://www.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0301199

George

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:24:46 -0500, in uk.sci.astronomy , "Mark
Earnest" wrote:

Something like this question may be answerable. Time is a property of
our universe,

It is not! Time marches on independently of the universe!

Er, no.


and it began when the universe began, so the concept of
"before" isn't easily defined.

Totally warped thinking, to think time did not exist until the Big Bang.
There was a bang, wasn't there?
What set off the bang!
Something in time.

You probably want to read up on what the big bang actually would have
been.
--
Mark McIntyre

Chris L Peterson wrote:
On 11 Sep 2006 09:20:06 -0700, "tomgee" wrote:

No, that is not true, IMO. There is only one BBT that I know
of, and if space existed and came out of the BB, how was it
compressed? What mechanism or process could you imagine
can compress space and matter into a singularity? Matter,
yes, but just how do you compress space? And how much
space are you talking about? When will the BB run out of space
to eject? And what about the Great Void? Human brains are
not yet evolved to the point where we can imagine such a
thing, let alone visualize it (although some dolts have responded
to this same statement by saying they can imagine it!).

I'm sorry your imagination is so limited.

Oh, and yours is not, since you seem to be claiming you
can imagine such a thing. Apparently you believe in the
Great Pumpkin, too, eh? Well, then, let's have it. Explain
what it is you can imagine, you're so intelligent and all.
Remember, it has no space in it, it is infinite in extent, and
you claim there is nothing else in it but our universe. It is
not empty space because space came out of the BB, as
you claim.

I don't believe you will answer, because you can't. That is
where your unlimited imagination has led you, into fairytale
land, where anything you want is possible. But even there,
it cannot exist because for anything to exist in our
imaginations requires our being able to explain what it is we
are imagining. Just saying you are imagining it is not enough
to show you are imagining it, because talk is cheap. What do
you see in your mind's eye? What does it look like? What
are some of its visual characteristics?

The simple fact is that these
things aren't beyond human comprehension,

What "these things"? I only asked about the Great Void, not
anything else. If by "human comprehension" you mean you
can comprehend it, then explain it to us.

and for those who have spent
some time studying cosmology, they aren't as hard to imagine as you
suppose.

Yes, it is. In fact, it is impossible.

And there are many BB theories.

Well, you doesn't has ta give us many, just name a couple.

You claim to be a physicist and you think they are testable and
falsifiable? That is impossible, friend, unless you know
something about that no one else knows.

I know what makes a theory, and I'm hardly the only one! And there are
theories that go beyond the BB (branes, for example) that can be tested
by observation and that can be falsified. That makes them valid
theories. Any theory that doesn't meet that criteria, however, is just
so much mental masturbation.

No no, we're not saying there are no other theories that "go beyond"
the BB. We are just talking about the BB now. But since you claim
those others are testable and falsifiable, tell us why you think they
are, or who told you they are.

PD wrote:
tomgee wrote:
Chris L Peterson wrote:
On 11 Sep 2006 05:23:51 -0700, "tomgee" wrote:

No, he's right, nothing prior to the BB has been discovered as yet,
unless you know about something that has been discovered as such.

Everything we know about physics breaks down very close
to the BB, including time.

Okay, but that is after, not before.

Time is generally seen as a component of our
universe just as the spatial dimensions are.

Yes, you're right.

It really makes no sense to
consider time as something which existed "before" the BB, anymore than
it makes sense to consider space as having existed.

On the contrary, since space exists in our universe, so it really
makes more sense to think it can exist outside of our universe.

It makes more sense to ask whether matter exists elsewhere
and if ever we can assume that it does, we can assume time
would exist as well.

These things may "make sense" to your intuition, but that is all. There
is no other reason for something to exist outside the universe.

I did not say there was a reason. I said there is no reason to think
it is more likely that time exists in another universe since it exists
here, than for another universe to exist without time.

Right
now, the best supported physical theories tell us that space and time
were both created at the BB, and that neither existed "before" (and that
indeed, "before" is a meaningless concept, as is "outside" the
universe).

No, that is not true, IMO. There is only one BBT that I know
of, and if space existed and came out of the BB, how was it
compressed? What mechanism or process could you imagine
can compress space and matter into a singularity? Matter,
yes, but just how do you compress space?

That's precisely what the Einstein field equations tell you -- what the
relationship is between the curvature of space and time and the mass &
energy in that space. The two go hand in hand. The more mass and
energy, then the more tightly curved the space is. The asymptote of
that process is a singularity, both in terms of the density of mass and
energy, and in terms of the curvature of spacetime.

You are basing your convictions on math constructs, knowing full
well math can prove anything? How dumb is that, PD?

And how much
space are you talking about? When will the BB run out of space
to eject? And what about the Great Void? Human brains are
not yet evolved to the point where we can imagine such a
thing, let alone visualize it (although some dolts have responded
to this same statement by saying they can imagine it!).

The above illustrates what's wrong in physics today. None of
the above silliness was ever questioned like I have above, the
awe-struck student accepts everything as if it were gospel.

I have never read a theory that claims space neither existed
before the BB nor exists external to our universe.

That's because your reading is quite limited.

If you have,
as you so claim, quote it for us. My theory is the only one, AFAIK,
that contends abs. space exists outside the universe.

On 11 Sep 2006 14:43:29 -0700, "tomgee" wrote:

I'm sorry your imagination is so limited.

Oh, and yours is not, since you seem to be claiming you
can imagine such a thing.

Yes, I can. I have a sort of visualization framework based on analogy
and some math. It's only a model, but for me an effective one.

Well, then, let's have it. Explain
what it is you can imagine, you're so intelligent and all.
Remember, it has no space in it, it is infinite in extent, and
you claim there is nothing else in it but our universe. It is
not empty space because space came out of the BB, as
you claim.

Are you talking about a hyperuniverse? I don't particularly believe in
one, although some of the theories are intriguing. But I'll hold off
until more evidence comes in. For now, I am perfectly happy with the
idea that our universe is all there is. There is no "outside", and no
"before". I don't have any real problem visualizing that.


What "these things"? I only asked about the Great Void, not
anything else. If by "human comprehension" you mean you
can comprehend it, then explain it to us.

What "Great Void"? Since I don't believe it exists, I have no need to
try and visualize it. I can easily visualize a higher dimensional
manifold that the universe exists in, but there is no evidence that it
has any physical reality.


And there are many BB theories.

Well, you doesn't has ta give us many, just name a couple.

For example, an inflationary versus non-inflationary model. There are
many variations on the BB theory.


No no, we're not saying there are no other theories that "go beyond"
the BB. We are just talking about the BB now. But since you claim
those others are testable and falsifiable, tell us why you think they
are, or who told you they are.

Do your own research. If you really knew anything about this you
wouldn't have to ask the question. There are experiments currently under
way, and some planned for equipment coming online in the next few years
that are capable of either supporting or disproving several multiverse
theories.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

"Richard Adams" kirjoitti
legroups.com...

Radium wrote:
Hi:

What happened before the big bang?

Sadly, its a question that can't be answered, yet its so interesting.



Regards,

Radium

My a favourite theory is that the prior universe had collapsed in upon
itself, like a big ol' black hole and then exploded. This is a
cyclical thing.

That is a good one, and it means that BB is a start of a galaxy, not start
of the universe.

Henry Haapalainen

tomgee wrote to PD wrote:
My theory is the only one, AFAIK,
that contends abs. space exists outside the universe.

What is that abs. space contained in, then?

--
St. John
Pecor's Health-Food Principle:
Never eat rutabaga on any day of the week that has a "y" in it.

Mdmeenken wrote:
"Richard Adams" schreef in bericht
ups.com...

Radium wrote:
Hi:

What happened before the big bang?

Sadly, its a question that can't be answered, yet its so interesting.



Regards,

Radium

My a favourite theory is that the prior universe had collapsed in upon
itself, like a big ol' black hole and then exploded. This is a
cyclical thing.

may be!!!

Of course, the really big question is... where is all this happening?

"Chris L Peterson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:24:46 -0500, "Mark Earnest"
wrote:

It is not! Time marches on independently of the universe!

I'm glad you're so confident of that. Very few physicists (myself
included) would agree, however.

I'll try to maintain my confidence, then.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com