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#31
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...Lesson for Nasa! US Airmail and Aviation
Rand Simberg wrote:
Derek Lyons wrote: So....what is the market/cargo for space? That is, of course, the heart of the problem. Where there is a market - comsats of various kinds - there is substantial investment and interest; where there isn't one, or where at the very least no one has thought of one, there's no investment and no interest (in the financial world). And there has been about a billion dollars of investment in private space vehicles recently. So? So, significant money disagrees with Mr. Oldover (not surprising, since most sensible people do). Significant money disagreed with those who thought the dot com era might become the dot bomb era. (And your reply, as quoted below, indicates that Mr Oldover is in fact correct, the money didn't come from the financial world - it came from the goverment.) And I find it fascinating how you define 'sensible people' as 'people who agree with your world view'. Furthermore, much of the investment in private space is represented by a few individuals - not the broader financial world. Much of that money is state government money. Oh? What private vehicles did which states invest in? D. -- Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
#32
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...Lesson for Nasa! US Airmail and Aviation
Rand Simberg wrote: wrote: If space can provide something else cheaper and better than you can get it on Earth, that will attract investment too. What it might be I can't imagine, but where you need to focus energy on is imagining it. That says much more about the paucity of your imagination than about the nature or reality of space markets. Lacking anything valid to say, you just hurl insults. That kind of speaks for itself. |
#33
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...Lesson for Nasa! US Airmail and Aviation
Significant money disagreed with those who thought the dot com era might become the dot bomb era. I'm on record as opposing investment in dot coms too - I in fact forbade my broker from going near them. From the beginning I said that IMHO the web is a publicity tool, an indexing tool, and a catalogue service, and not much else. So far that has proven true. Even successful companies like eBay and Google are cataloguing and indexing services and nothing else. |
#34
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...Lesson for Nasa! US Airmail and Aviation
Derek Lyons wrote:
And there has been about a billion dollars of investment in private space vehicles recently. So? So, significant money disagrees with Mr. Oldover (not surprising, since most sensible people do). Significant money disagreed with those who thought the dot com era might become the dot bomb era. (And your reply, as quoted below, indicates that Mr Oldover is in fact correct, the money didn't come from the financial world - it came from the goverment.) It came from both. And I find it fascinating how you define 'sensible people' as 'people who agree with your world view'. That is not how I define 'sensible people. I find it fascinating that you think that it is. Ordover has a long history of being a non-sensible person. Furthermore, much of the investment in private space is represented by a few individuals - not the broader financial world. Much of that money is state government money. Oh? What private vehicles did which states invest in? I misstated it. I meant private space industry more generally, not just vehicles. I was referring to spaceports. |
#35
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...Lesson for Nasa! US Airmail and Aviation
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#36
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...Lesson for Nasa! US Airmail and Aviation
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#37
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...Lesson for Nasa! US Airmail and Aviation
That money is from billionaire hobbyists, not investors. It is from both. It is also from state governments. Though, as Derek Lyons noted, I should have said private space industry, not just vehicles. So let's talk vehicles, since I've never said there isn't investment in space industry - comsats are responsible for a lot of investment - just that I haven't seen any significant investment in space vehciles outside of government "boutique" projects and billionaire hobbyists. My friends in the financial industry say there is basically none. If you're claiming there is, please provide the source of your evidence so it can be evaluated. Just as a side note, multiple billions were poured down the Enron drain, and that's just one example. You can't judge the viability of something on the basis of how much investment it attracts, which is what the poster above was talking about when he brought up dotcoms. The amount of money "invested" in gambling by patrons of Las Vegas casinos despite posted odds against them kind of proves that. |
#38
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...Lesson for Nasa! US Airmail and Aviation
wrote in message ups.com... I'm on record as opposing investment in dot coms too - I in fact forbade my broker from going near them. From the beginning I said that IMHO the web is a publicity tool, an indexing tool, and a catalogue service, and not much else. So far that has proven true. Even successful companies like eBay and Google are cataloguing and indexing services and nothing else. I think that "cataloguing and indexing services and nothing else" is an extremely narrow view of how money is being made on the Internet. Many people like myself have completely replaced ordering from catalogs with ordering from the web. While many people do sell and buy things on eBay, the web is also to be the easiest way to book vacations, search for houses, and buy specialty items that may not be available locally. These sorts of activities deprive middle men like travel agents and real estate agents of income. But I doubt these sources of direct income from the Internet account for most of the money being "made on the Internet". I suspect that most of the income being made from the Internet is indirect. Many companies use the Internet to enable "24 hour development", which really means, move US jobs to India and China. These companies may not directly profit from sales on the Internet, but they do profit from outsourcing jobs overseas. Just about any job that involves working with a computer all day can be moved overseas. I ought to know since the company I work for has been moving jobs overseas for years. We just opened a brand new building in India, while the Cincinnati office I work at has shrunk from two buildings down to one, and we've got a lot of empty offices and cubicles in this building. I'd guess the money made from the Internet enabled outsourcing of jobs to countries outside the US is more than the money being made by "cataloguing and indexing services", which would include Internet sales and companies like Google that make money from online ads. Unfortunately, it's really hard to say how much outsourcing of jobs overseas is enabled by the Internet. US companies tend to be tight lipped about how much money they're really spending on outsourcing overseas due to the public backlash over things like call centers and customer support centers in India. Jeff -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919) |
#39
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...Lesson for Nasa! US Airmail and Aviation
In article ,
Derek Lyons wrote: Much of that money is state government money. Oh? What private vehicles did which states invest in? For starters, much of Rocketplane's funding came from a state tax credit. (In Oklahoma, such credits are transferable, meaning that they are salable assets with substantial cash value.) -- spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. | |
#40
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...Lesson for Nasa! US Airmail and Aviation
Derek Lyons ) wrote:
: Rand Simberg wrote: : wrote: : v : : A market! A cargo! The US Airmail. : : So....what is the market/cargo for space? : : : That is, of course, the heart of the problem. Where there is a market : - comsats of various kinds - there is substantial investment and : interest; where there isn't one, or where at the very least no one has : thought of one, there's no investment and no interest (in the financial : world). : : And there has been about a billion dollars of investment in private : space vehicles recently. : So? There was a massive amount of capital invested in railroads too : back in day. (Much of it lost.) There was also massive amounts of : capital invested in the dot-bombs, (and much of it too was lost). : Furthermore, much of the investment in private space is represented by : a few individuals - not the broader financial world. : (But then, such facts and complications don't fit neatly into a : typical Randian one-liner sound bite.) Yes, Rand does use the KISS theory doesn't he? With the emphasis on 'stupid'. hahaha Eric : D. : -- : Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh. : -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings. : Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
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