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Titan's black areas : a froozen sea ?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 19th 05, 11:56 PM
Thierry
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Default Titan's black areas : a froozen sea ?

Hi,

I wonder why NASA didn't speak about the possibility that dark areas could
be large icy surfaces.
They speak either of dry surface or liquid. But IMHO there is another
explanation.

If I compare those images with aerial pictures of antarctic or any polar
coastline, the ice recently formed at sea displays a deep black color with a
very smooth surface compared to the old gray ice and bright reliefs.

So it is not impossible that the high and long white prominences we see in
the black area (prominences seem about 40-50m high and a few hundreds
meters slong) are reliefs plunged into a frozen see. As all these gas (N2,
Ch4, NH3, C2H6, etc) are transparent on earth, without analyse with the GCSM
we can not determine its nature.
This froozen sea can be constitued of methan if the temperature drop below
about -183°C, its fusion temp., ethan or even made of dirty ice like
clathrates (hydrates). Nitrogen is not impossible (they must have "riviers"
of nitrogen) if the temperature drop locally below -210°C. If there are
winters, why not.
That said, the most probable explanation is a dry terrain but the idea of a
froozen sea must not be rejected.

Remain to know exactly what are the fusion temperature of methan and ethan
on titan, under 1500 Hpa and -180°C.
NB. These possible lakes can not be of N2 because its fusion temp. is -190°C
on titan and can't thus freeze, excepting in deep gorges close to the
aquifere layer (a suggestion).

Thierry
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/titan-brumes.htm


  #2  
Old January 20th 05, 02:12 AM
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Thierry wrote:
Hi,

I wonder why NASA didn't speak about the possibility that dark areas

could
be large icy surfaces.
They speak either of dry surface or liquid. But IMHO there is another
explanation.


Note that in hydrocarbons like methane and ethane, the liquid phase has
a lower density than the solid you get when it freezes. This means
that the "hydrocarbon seas" would not acquire a top coating of "ice"
when freezing began, but would freeze from the bottom up. Any ice
forming on the surface would sink. Water is almost unique in having a
solid form lighter than its liquid. Sorry, no ice skating on Titan.
What I think is reasonable would be a sea of tar or crude oil, what is
left behind when liquid methane rains out of the predominantly nitrogen
atmosphere and carries some of the orange photochemical smog with it
and then later evaporates. Over the eons since the formation of Titan
a lot of the methane and ethane in the primordial atmosphere must have
gotten converted into black goo. That is my bet for what the sea
consists of. I won't bet on the viscosity though. Could be anything
from pretty fluid stuff like crude oil all the way to asphalt.
Clif Ashcraft

  #3  
Old January 20th 05, 08:19 AM
Warm Nights
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Excuse my brain lock but .... Im just amazed. We used to sit around talking

about these things like some intellectual exercise, nowsomething has
actually
landed there and taken images no less and 'that' changes everything. I just

cant get my head around it all yet! Obviously, I dont belong in combat!
smiling ...





wrote:

Thierry wrote:
Hi,

I wonder why NASA didn't speak about the possibility that dark areas

could
be large icy surfaces.
They speak either of dry surface or liquid. But IMHO there is another
explanation.


Note that in hydrocarbons like methane and ethane, the liquid phase has
a lower density than the solid you get when it freezes. This means
that the "hydrocarbon seas" would not acquire a top coating of "ice"
when freezing began, but would freeze from the bottom up. Any ice
forming on the surface would sink. Water is almost unique in having a
solid form lighter than its liquid. Sorry, no ice skating on Titan.
What I think is reasonable would be a sea of tar or crude oil, what is
left behind when liquid methane rains out of the predominantly nitrogen
atmosphere and carries some of the orange photochemical smog with it
and then later evaporates. Over the eons since the formation of Titan
a lot of the methane and ethane in the primordial atmosphere must have
gotten converted into black goo. That is my bet for what the sea
consists of. I won't bet on the viscosity though. Could be anything
from pretty fluid stuff like crude oil all the way to asphalt.
Clif Ashcraft


  #4  
Old January 20th 05, 09:16 AM
Stuart Chapman
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Thierry wrote:
Hi,

I wonder why NASA didn't speak about the possibility that dark areas could
be large icy surfaces.
They speak either of dry surface or liquid. But IMHO there is another
explanation.



I had a thought that the dark areas may be seas composed of something a
little like this:

www.physics.uq.edu.au/pitchdrop/pitchdrop.shtml

I suppose you could call them a sea.

Stupot
  #5  
Old January 20th 05, 12:47 PM
Thierry
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Default


wrote in message
oups.com...
Thierry wrote:
Hi,

I wonder why NASA didn't speak about the possibility that dark areas

could
be large icy surfaces.
They speak either of dry surface or liquid. But IMHO there is another
explanation.


Note that in hydrocarbons like methane and ethane, the liquid phase has
a lower density than the solid you get when it freezes. This means
that the "hydrocarbon seas" would not acquire a top coating of "ice"
when freezing began, but would freeze from the bottom up.


You right. I knew but I had the reflex to transpose what I see on earth...

Any ice
forming on the surface would sink. Water is almost unique in having a
solid form lighter than its liquid. Sorry, no ice skating on Titan.
What I think is reasonable would be a sea of tar or crude oil,


Yea that make sense. hence maybe the strong smell of gas on titan...
I 'ld be curious to know.

what is
left behind when liquid methane rains out of the predominantly nitrogen
atmosphere and carries some of the orange photochemical smog with it
and then later evaporates. Over the eons since the formation of Titan
a lot of the methane and ethane in the primordial atmosphere must have
gotten converted into black goo. That is my bet for what the sea
consists of. I won't bet on the viscosity though. Could be anything
from pretty fluid stuff like crude oil all the way to asphalt.


A very strange country... just good for Q8, Total or BP ;-)

Thierry

Clif Ashcraft



  #6  
Old January 20th 05, 05:22 PM
Thierry
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Default


"Stuart Chapman" wrote in message
...
Thierry wrote:
Hi,
...

I had a thought that the dark areas may be seas composed of something a
little like this:
www.physics.uq.edu.au/pitchdrop/pitchdrop.shtml

I suppose you could call them a sea.

Hi,

Stunning and very interesting.
For what you told and I see about tar or picth, and from what we know about
Titan, here is a rendering of Titan surface near a canyon I just did...
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Scie...-rendering.jpg
The lake almost black. Now, the lake is maybe more viscous, "harder" or less
reflective, I don't know.
Clouds, not numerous are constitued of methane melted with organic
components
(Image extract from my French page
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/titan-brumes.htm )


Thierry

Stupot



  #7  
Old January 20th 05, 09:35 PM
PaulCsouls
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Default

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:22:31 +0100, "Thierry" . wrote:


"Stuart Chapman" wrote in message
...
Thierry wrote:
Hi,
...

I had a thought that the dark areas may be seas composed of something a
little like this:
www.physics.uq.edu.au/pitchdrop/pitchdrop.shtml

I suppose you could call them a sea.

Hi,

Stunning and very interesting.
For what you told and I see about tar or picth, and from what we know about
Titan, here is a rendering of Titan surface near a canyon I just did...
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Scie...-rendering.jpg
The lake almost black. Now, the lake is maybe more viscous, "harder" or less
reflective, I don't know.
Clouds, not numerous are constitued of methane melted with organic
components
(Image extract from my French page
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/titan-brumes.htm )


Thierry

Stupot


With what they are saying about landing in Titan mud, I think it might
be a mixture of tar and water crystals that has the consistancy of ice
cream. The water crystals get absorbed in the ethane/methane rains and
recrystalize in the sediments when the ethane/methane evaporates,
making tar sorbet.

Paul C
  #8  
Old January 20th 05, 11:54 PM
Thierry
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Default


"PaulCsouls" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:22:31 +0100, "Thierry" . wrote:


Hi,

Here is a better image I just enhanced. It replace the previous one.
I tried to represent a canon on Titan at the bottom of which formed a lake
of methan. Clouds, dense, are constitued of methan and dissolved nitrogen
mixed with organic components synthetized by the solar radiation, given them
this orangeous color.

NB.This photo-realistic illustration was created from an original picture
taken near Mexican Hat canyon in Utah and is thus not based on raw Huygens
data but I tried to create a landscape that looked close to its landing
site.
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Scie...-landscape.jpg


With what they are saying about landing in Titan mud, I think it might
be a mixture of tar and water crystals that has the consistancy of ice
cream. The water crystals get absorbed in the ethane/methane rains and
recrystalize in the sediments when the ethane/methane evaporates,
making tar sorbet.


Not for me. Nothing will replace the sorbet "made on earth" ;-)

Thierry

Paul C



 




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