Titan shoreline?

Take a look at this latest image composite from Huygens:

http://esamultimedia.esa.int/images/...e_050117_H.jpg

With my highly untrained eye, I see a shoreline running from west to south
where the distributaries meet with the large dark area in the middle of the
picture.

To the north and east are clouds or possibly islands.

Am I seeing too much? If the large dark area is a lake, a lake of what
exactly?

Paul.

Wasn't it Paul Neave who wrote:
Take a look at this latest image composite from Huygens:

http://esamultimedia.esa.int/images/...sa_release_050
117_H.jpg

With my highly untrained eye, I see a shoreline running from west to south
where the distributaries meet with the large dark area in the middle of the
picture.

To the north and east are clouds or possibly islands.

Am I seeing too much? If the large dark area is a lake, a lake of what
exactly?

There are a few small offshore spots that look suspiciously like small
craters. If any of them are actually craters, and not imaging artefacts,
then that dark plain isn't liquid.

The current guess is that any liquid present is mainly a mixture of
methane and ethane, and that the solid material is mainly water ice.
We'll know better when the chemistry data from the probe gets analysed.

--
Mike Williams
Gentleman of Leisure

"Paul Neave" wrote in message
...
Take a look at this latest image composite from Huygens:


http://esamultimedia.esa.int/images/...nd/esa_release
_050117_H.jpg

With my highly untrained eye, I see a shoreline running from west to south
where the distributaries meet with the large dark area in the middle of
the
picture.

Hi,

Indeed. But many interpret this in another way.
And I take the opportunity to highlight all the problem.
First what do you define as a shoreline ? You mean the area separating a
solid from a liquid ? You see the presence of liquid ? I don't see that...
Why didn't we use a similar qualifier for the Moon...
Like NASA each of us interpret our way what is on those pictures with the a
priori (that can be right) that thare are liquid on titan, but it not
demonstrated yet, we have some IR evidences nothing more.
Look those pictures of titan talken by huygens:
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Scie...-area-zoom.jpg
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Scie...alsecolors.jpg

What you see and you did right, are areas of bright reliefs including short
drains, even some cratelets surrounding a dark area, much smoother including
some whiter features. What are these white features ? Waves or relief ? We
don't know, but probably relief, to confirm with a next picture.
Now, compare this picture with the same of any mare of the moon...
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Docu...pico-piton.jpg
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Docu...m-copernic.jpg
there is no difference excepting for the drains (although they are some
valley and faults on the moon).
We could also speak of shoreline for the moon, but we know that are is no
liquid.on its surface.

In no case, from these pictures and without more information we can say that
the black area is liquid and I think that NASA did a "mistake of style" in
speaking in term of "shoreline" immediately after have quickly processed
the first raw image.
We need other measurements, specially from the GCMS (spectrometre,
chromatometer) and SSP (surface analyser) and more pictures to detect any
move or particle in the atmosphere for example.

Remember that Lowell also saw canali everywhere on Mars... It worked at the
limit of the resolution of its scope. In our case, this is similar. Due to
their relatively low resolution, pictures can be interpreted much wider that
what they are supposed to represent.
It is a good lesson of planetology and like all of us I am impatient to see
3D rendering and radar measurements of the all set of data received by DSN
and GBT.

Thierry
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/titan-brumes.htm


To the north and east are clouds or possibly islands.

Am I seeing too much? If the large dark area is a lake, a lake of what
exactly?

Paul.

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:56:38 -0000, "Paul Neave"
wrote:

Take a look at this latest image composite from Huygens:

http://esamultimedia.esa.int/images/...e_050117_H.jpg

With my highly untrained eye, I see a shoreline running from west to south
where the distributaries meet with the large dark area in the middle of the
picture.

To the north and east are clouds or possibly islands.

Am I seeing too much? If the large dark area is a lake, a lake of what
exactly?

Paul.


I think it's a lake of goo. It's not like a single substance like
water so it doesn't evaporate neatly. It rains something like dirty
paint thinner. The more volatile substance evaporate, leaving a lake
of tar like stuff. Maybe there are amino acids in that junk. Some wild
organic chemistry is going on down there.

Paul C

Thierry wrote:
"Paul Neave" wrote in message
...

Take a look at this latest image composite from Huygens:



http://esamultimedia.esa.int/images/...nd/esa_release
_050117_H.jpg

With my highly untrained eye, I see a shoreline running from west to south
where the distributaries meet with the large dark area in the middle of

the

picture.


Hi,

Indeed. But many interpret this in another way.
And I take the opportunity to highlight all the problem.
First what do you define as a shoreline ? You mean the area separating a
solid from a liquid ? You see the presence of liquid ? I don't see that...
Why didn't we use a similar qualifier for the Moon...
Like NASA each of us interpret our way what is on those pictures with the a
priori (that can be right) that thare are liquid on titan, but it not
demonstrated yet, we have some IR evidences nothing more.
Look those pictures of titan talken by huygens:
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Scie...-area-zoom.jpg
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Scie...alsecolors.jpg

What you see and you did right, are areas of bright reliefs including short
drains, even some cratelets surrounding a dark area, much smoother including
some whiter features. What are these white features ? Waves or relief ? We
don't know, but probably relief, to confirm with a next picture.
Now, compare this picture with the same of any mare of the moon...
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Docu...pico-piton.jpg
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Docu...m-copernic.jpg
there is no difference excepting for the drains (although they are some
valley and faults on the moon).
We could also speak of shoreline for the moon, but we know that are is no
liquid.on its surface.

In no case, from these pictures and without more information we can say that
the black area is liquid and I think that NASA did a "mistake of style" in
speaking in term of "shoreline" immediately after have quickly processed
the first raw image.
We need other measurements, specially from the GCMS (spectrometre,
chromatometer) and SSP (surface analyser) and more pictures to detect any
move or particle in the atmosphere for example.

Remember that Lowell also saw canali everywhere on Mars... It worked at the
limit of the resolution of its scope. In our case, this is similar. Due to
their relatively low resolution, pictures can be interpreted much wider that
what they are supposed to represent.
It is a good lesson of planetology and like all of us I am impatient to see
3D rendering and radar measurements of the all set of data received by DSN
and GBT.

Thierry
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/titan-brumes.htm


To the north and east are clouds or possibly islands.

Am I seeing too much? If the large dark area is a lake, a lake of what
exactly?

Paul.





The scientists that are working with the decent camera say there are NO
craters visible in any of the images, what "LOOK" like craters are
infact image artefacts, possibly spots on the camera.

"PaulCsouls" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:56:38 -0000, "Paul Neave"
wrote:

...
I think it's a lake of goo. It's not like a single substance like
water so it doesn't evaporate neatly. It rains something like dirty
paint thinner. The more volatile substance evaporate, leaving a lake
of tar like stuff. Maybe there are amino acids in that junk.

Maybe... maybe not. Usually these things need of an environment much warmer.
There are reactions in the cold of space (20 K) due to electric properties
of atoms and molecules but nothing that looks like amino acids. This
structure need processes far more complexes.

All the difference is there. Titan is maybe like the primeral earth but it
has not its warmth (earth was very hot 4 and 3 bn years ago), even if the
ground is warmer that the theoretical model due to a bad internal
convection. This only fact reduces our chance to find something useful to
the pre or even biotic process very unlikely.

And thus the discovery of any cryogenic dynamic process evolving in this
atmosphere or at groun level will be a big event that will extend our list
of hostile spots where live is supposed to not exist much farther to the
cold areas of the Continue habitable zone.
Wait and see. In fact we 'll only get an confirmation of this fact the day
when the man will put his feet on titan. Until then, we 'll have data with
some degrees of confidence but probably not enough and accurate to say it is
black or white, there is live or not of titan.
Remember the Viking mission of Mars: under the detection level of the
various experiments (e.g. GEX, see
http://mars.spherix.com/spie2/Reprint76.htm) there could have millions life
forms undetected (and that created a huge debate in the scientific
communauty at that time).

Thierry
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/titan-brumes.htm

Some wild
organic chemistry is going on down there.

Paul C

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:34:16 +0100, "Thierry" . wrote:

Maybe... maybe not. Usually these things need of an environment much warmer.
There are reactions in the cold of space (20 K) due to electric properties
of atoms and molecules but nothing that looks like amino acids. This
structure need processes far more complexes.

All the difference is there. Titan is maybe like the primeral earth but it
has not its warmth (earth was very hot 4 and 3 bn years ago), even if the
ground is warmer that the theoretical model due to a bad internal
convection. This only fact reduces our chance to find something useful to
the pre or even biotic process very unlikely.

What if you find a hot spot (spring, geyser, lava crack, etc.) where
water is warmed locally to liquid state? Then you have the ingredients
for a potent chemical mix similar to the supposed pre-life conditions
of Earth.

Could complex proto-DNA molecules be lurking on or just below the
surface in such areas?

---
Michael McCulloch

"Karatepe" wrote in message
...
Thierry wrote:
"Paul Neave" wrote in message
...
...

The scientists that are working with the decent camera say there are NO
craters visible in any of the images, what "LOOK" like craters are
infact image artefacts, possibly spots on the camera.

Indeed. In fact my first impression was that theses small features were
artifacts
But a close look (on bad pictures published on the Internet) seems to show
"holes" with shadows, etc and even a small rock running on the draining
channel.
But who could interpret such detail from such images... this is a
performance ! ;-)

Thierry

Thierry wrote:

Indeed. In fact my first impression was that theses small features were
artifacts
But a close look (on bad pictures published on the Internet) seems to show
"holes" with shadows, etc and even a small rock running on the draining
channel.
But who could interpret such detail from such images... this is a
performance ! ;-)

Thierry



That was my first impression - "craters".... but in closer inspection of
the RAW data, they appear in the same place in many different images
which implies they are artefacts of the camera.

"Michael McCulloch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:34:16 +0100, "Thierry" . wrote:

Maybe... maybe not. Usually these things need of an environment much
warmer.
There are reactions in the cold of space (20 K) due to electric
properties
of atoms and molecules but nothing that looks like amino acids. This
structure need processes far more complexes.

All the difference is there. Titan is maybe like the primeral earth but
it
has not its warmth (earth was very hot 4 and 3 bn years ago), even if the
ground is warmer that the theoretical model due to a bad internal
convection. This only fact reduces our chance to find something useful to
the pre or even biotic process very unlikely.

What if you find a hot spot (spring, geyser, lava crack, etc.) where
water is warmed locally to liquid state? Then you have the ingredients
for a potent chemical mix similar to the supposed pre-life conditions
of Earth.

Hot spot ? To see, why not.
But I speak at the spot where landed Huygens. It is cold -179.35 °C and the
atmopshere -202°C
This is not what we call a hot spot...


Could complex proto-DNA molecules be lurking on or just below the
surface in such areas?


The mantel of Titan is like to one of ganymed (and callisto if my memory
don't fails) and displays a layering of ice melted with methan and ammoniac
below a crust relatively hard.
See drawing at
http://www.astrosurf.com/lombry/Scie...terior-dwg.jpg
Like on mars or callisto and other moon, it is not unlike that live
refugiated below the surface where the temperature is fine.
Therefore we need many different experiments to confirm all these
hypothesis.
We know that to find a true live on titan' surface, is really unlike, zero.
Even on earth live does not subsist below -15°C.(Cryptoendoliths,
Antarctic). So the only place where it could survive is below the surface or
like you say close to hot springs.
But most important is to see how at -180°C, knowing that all water cannot
sublimate in the atmosphere and act like on earth, how cryogenic processes
can act. That 'd be a true revolution if we found something useful to the
life at such a low temperature. Under warmer conditions is much less unlike.

Thierry


---
Michael McCulloch