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How many degrees in their orbit do the planets travel in one Earth year?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 9th 15, 10:57 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Brian Denzer
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Default How many degrees in their orbit do the planets travel in one Earth year?

In the posthumously-published 18th century manuscript, Descriptio Automati Planetarii, Christian Huygens described the motions of the planets in degrees traveled in one Earth year.

So, for example, he said that Earth travels 359° 45' 40" 31''' in one year, but Saturn travels just 12° 13' 34" 18''' in one year.

What is he talking about, how did he arrive at those numbers, and what is the unit used in the last term (thirds?)?

The degrees traveled by other planets are also listed, but the document is in Latin, so it's very difficult to extract those ratios.

I rather like his approach as an exercise in the math of astronomy. I'd like to understand it better.

Descriptio Automati Planetarii:

https://play.google.com/books/reader...n&pg=GBS.PA139

The reference to degrees traveled by Earth and Saturn:

https://play.google.com/books/reader...n&pg=GBS.PA174

Thanks for any assistance that might be offered.

Kind regards,
Brian


  #2  
Old August 10th 15, 04:45 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
RichA[_6_]
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Posts: 1,076
Default How many degrees in their orbit do the planets travel in oneEarth year?

On Sunday, 9 August 2015 17:57:57 UTC-4, Brian Denzer wrote:
In the posthumously-published 18th century manuscript, Descriptio Automati Planetarii, Christian Huygens described the motions of the planets in degrees traveled in one Earth year.

So, for example, he said that Earth travels 359° 45' 40" 31''' in one year, but Saturn travels just 12° 13' 34" 18''' in one year.

What is he talking about, how did he arrive at those numbers, and what is the unit used in the last term (thirds?)?

The degrees traveled by other planets are also listed, but the document is in Latin, so it's very difficult to extract those ratios.

I rather like his approach as an exercise in the math of astronomy. I'd like to understand it better.

Descriptio Automati Planetarii:

https://play.google.com/books/reader...n&pg=GBS.PA139

The reference to degrees traveled by Earth and Saturn:

https://play.google.com/books/reader...n&pg=GBS.PA174

Thanks for any assistance that might be offered.

Kind regards,
Brian


Find the "year time" of each planet, the time it takes to orbit the sun, and divide to get degrees.
Mars with an almost 700 Earth day orbit would go 192 degrees in an Earth year.
  #3  
Old August 10th 15, 07:22 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default How many degrees in their orbit do the planets travel in oneEarth year?

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 10:57:57 PM UTC+1, Brian Denzer wrote:
In the posthumously-published 18th century manuscript, Descriptio Automati Planetarii, Christian Huygens described the motions of the planets in degrees traveled in one Earth year.

So, for example, he said that Earth travels 359° 45' 40" 31''' in one year, but Saturn travels just 12° 13' 34" 18''' in one year.

What is he talking about, how did he arrive at those numbers, and what is the unit used in the last term (thirds?)?

The degrees traveled by other planets are also listed, but the document is in Latin, so it's very difficult to extract those ratios.

I rather like his approach as an exercise in the math of astronomy. I'd like to understand it better.


There is no reason you should like it, Huygens was using the original geocentric framework where everything moved through the Zodiac including the Sun -

"Here take notice, that the Sun or the Earth passeth the 12. Signes,
or makes an entire revolution in the Ecliptick in 365 days, 5 hours 49
min. or there about, and that those days, reckon'd from noon to noon,
are of different lenghts; as is known to all that are vers'd in
Astronomy.

http://adcs.home.xs4all.nl/Huygens/06/kort-E.html


This is what was known as the periodic times argument where the original heliocentric astronomers switched the time and position of the Sun with the time/motion of the Earth around the Sun and where Isaac was getting his disruptive double modeling from -

"That the fixed stars being at rest, the periodic times of the five
primary planets, and (whether of the sun about the earth, or) of the
earth about the sun, are in the sesquiplicate proportion of their mean
distances from the sun.This proportion, first observed by Kepler, is now received by all astronomers; for the periodic times are the same, and the dimensions of the orbits are the same, whether the sun revolves about the earth, or the earth about the sun." Newton

Kepler said no such thing as the original heliocentric approach to the periodic times was always going to be awkward when dealing with the motions of Venus and Mercury which do not answer to that method.

" The 10th argument,taken from the periodic times, is as follows; the
apparent movement of the Sun has 365 days which is the mean measure
between Venus' period of 225 days and Mars' period of 687
days.Therefore does not the nature of things shout out loud that the
circuits in which those 365 days are taken up has a mean position
between the circuits of Mars and Venus around the Sun and thus this is
not the circuit of the Sun around the Earth -for none of the primary
planets has its orbit arranged around the Earth,as Brahe admits,but the
circuit of the Earth around the resting Sun,just as the other
planets,namely Mars and Venus,complete their own periods by running
around the Sun." Kepler

Seen from a moving Earth, the motion of the inner and outer planets are divided by perspectives and the different type of inputs the Earth supplies to the observed motions of those planets.

The appreciation of the motion of the outer planets around the Sun relies totally on relative speeds of a faster moving Earth overtaking these slower moving planets -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

The inner planets are different as is the input supplied by the orbital motion of the Earth hence the periodic times as understood and used by Kepler and Huygens breaks down.

The major input of the Earth's orbital motion for discerning the heliocentric motion of the inner planets uses the annual motion of the stars behind the Sun thereby setting the Sun up as a central reference for the annual motions of Venus as a grandstand view. There will be a small orbital input from the Earth where the maximum elongations of the inner planets will be accelerated or delayed .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

Pay no attention to these 'year time' magnification dunces who have nothing to say about the actual workings of the original geocentric and heliocentric astronomers even though these things have been up for discussion for a few decades in this forum.





  #4  
Old August 10th 15, 02:15 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Lord Vath
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Default How many degrees in their orbit do the planets travel in one Earth year?

On Sun, 9 Aug 2015 14:57:55 -0700 (PDT), Brian Denzer
wrote this crap:

In the posthumously-published 18th century manuscript,
Descriptio Automati Planetarii, Christian Huygens described
the motions of the planets in degrees traveled in one Earth year.


It depends on your definition of a year.

So, for example, he said that Earth travels
359° 45' 40" 31''' in one year,


That seems reasonable.

but Saturn travels
just 12° 13' 34" 18''' in one year.


That seems reasonable.

What is he talking about, how did he arrive at those
numbers, and what is the unit used in the last term (thirds?)?


That's degrees, minutes, and seconds. That's a standard format.

The degrees traveled by other planets are also listed,
but the document is in Latin, so it's very difficult to
extract those ratios.


Not a problem. I speak fluent Latin, as do a lot of the scientific
community.

I rather like his approach as an exercise in the
math of astronomy. I'd like to understand it better.


Just go outside and enjoy the starlight. You'll feel better.

Thanks for any assistance that might be offered.


You're welcome. Thanks for the kind words.


This signature is now the ultimate
power in the universe
  #5  
Old August 10th 15, 06:10 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Posts: 3,068
Default How many degrees in their orbit do the planets travel in oneEarth year?

On Monday, August 10, 2015 at 6:14:57 AM UTC-7, Lord Vath wrote:

... I speak fluent Latin, as do a lot of the scientific
community.


Depends on your definition of 'fluent'.

The priest who writes the Latin for the Catholic Church's official documents and encyclicals estimates that there are probably no more than 100 people world-wide within the Catholic Church who truly speak fluent Latin today. My Latin teacher in high school spoke fluent Latin and told me that he knew of only a very few others in the USA who could do so.

I doubt very seriously that you are one of them...
  #6  
Old August 10th 15, 06:36 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
lal_truckee
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Posts: 409
Default How many degrees in their orbit do the planets travel in oneEarth year?

On 8/10/15 10:10 AM, palsing wrote:
On Monday, August 10, 2015 at 6:14:57 AM UTC-7, Lord Vath wrote:

... I speak fluent Latin, as do a lot of the scientific
community.


Depends on your definition of 'fluent'.

The priest who writes the Latin for the Catholic Church's official documents and encyclicals estimates that there are probably no more than 100 people world-wide within the Catholic Church who truly speak fluent Latin today. My Latin teacher in high school spoke fluent Latin and told me that he knew of only a very few others in the USA who could do so.

I doubt very seriously that you are one of them...


Not so dead...
http://www.latinitatis.com/latinitas/menu_gb.htm
Live radio news broadcasts in Latin, and other living Latin links.

  #7  
Old August 10th 15, 07:18 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Dr J R Stockton[_195_]
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Posts: 27
Default How many degrees in their orbit do the planets travel in one Earth year?

In sci.astro.amateur message f44fd975-cf73-449e-b53c-d2c2f19d6d6c@googl
egroups.com, Sun, 9 Aug 2015 14:57:55, Brian Denzer
posted:

The degrees traveled by other planets are also listed, but the document
is in Latin, so it's very difficult to extract those ratios.


Then ask in news:alt.language.latin.

--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
Web http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Proper = 4-line sig. separator as above, a line exactly "-- " (SonOfRFC1036)
Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with "" or " " (SonOfRFC1036)
  #8  
Old August 10th 15, 08:56 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Lord Vath
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Posts: 831
Default How many degrees in their orbit do the planets travel in one Earth year?

On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:10:11 -0700 (PDT), palsing
wrote this crap:

On Monday, August 10, 2015 at 6:14:57 AM UTC-7, Lord Vath wrote:

... I speak fluent Latin, as do a lot of the scientific
community.


Depends on your definition of 'fluent'.


Pater Noster
qui es in caelis
sanctificentur nomen tuum.

But I'm sure you can find the rest of this on the internet.

The priest who writes the Latin for the Catholic Church's
official documents and encyclicals estimates that there are probably
no more than 100 people world-wide within the Catholic Church
who truly speak fluent Latin today.


Do you have his name? and his e-mail address?

My Latin teacher in high school spoke fluent Latin
and told me that he knew of only a very few others
in the USA who could do so.


MY Latin teacher told me that Latin was *required* for a college
degree.


I doubt very seriously that you are one of them...


Sucks to be you. I am also a concert pianist. I have a grand piano
in my living room.


This signature is now the ultimate
power in the universe
  #9  
Old August 10th 15, 08:57 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Posts: 7,018
Default How many degrees in their orbit do the planets travel in oneEarth year?

On Sunday, August 9, 2015 at 3:57:57 PM UTC-6, Brian Denzer wrote:

What is he talking about, how did he arrive at those numbers, and what is the
unit used in the last term (thirds?)?


Yes, that is the standard symbol for the "third", one-sixtieth of a second.

For the Earth to travel 359° 45' 40" 31''' in one year, instead of 360° does mean that what definition of the year he is using is important.

Converting that to a decimal fraction of 360 degrees, one gets:

0.9993368184...

For comparison:

A tropical year is

0.9999612...

sidereal years. So that isn't it.

A Julian year is

0.999982587...

sidereal years, so that's even worse.

365 days is

0.9992981368...

sidereal years - so that may have been what he was talking about.


365 days is also

0.999336878...

tropical years; so that's even more likely to be that to which he was referring.

John Savard
  #10  
Old August 10th 15, 09:40 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Posts: 3,068
Default How many degrees in their orbit do the planets travel in oneEarth year?

On Monday, August 10, 2015 at 12:56:10 PM UTC-7, Lord Vath wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 10:10:11 -0700 (PDT), palsing
wrote this insightful observation:

On Monday, August 10, 2015 at 6:14:57 AM UTC-7, Lord Vath wrote:

... I speak fluent Latin, as do a lot of the scientific
community.


Depends on your definition of 'fluent'.


Pater Noster
qui es in caelis
sanctificentur nomen tuum...


You misspelled an important word there, so much for your fluency...

The priest who writes the Latin for the Catholic Church's
official documents and encyclicals estimates that there are probably
no more than 100 people world-wide within the Catholic Church
who truly speak fluent Latin today.


Do you have his name? and his e-mail address?


Father Reginald Foster, now retired...

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21412604

My Latin teacher in high school spoke fluent Latin
and told me that he knew of only a very few others
in the USA who could do so.


MY Latin teacher told me that Latin was *required* for a college
degree.


That depends on which college. I didn't have to take any language in college because my 4 years of Latin and 2 years of Greek in high school fulfilled that requirement.

I doubt very seriously that you are one of them...


Sucks to be you. I am also a concert pianist. I have a grand piano
in my living room.


So do lots of people. So do I, a 1912 Aeolian 4'10" grand.

Take a video of your best effort and post it on YouTube...
 




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