russia about to attack the ukraine again

In article ,
says...

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 7:53:11 AM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
There is something *magic* about Orion that makes it capable of beyond
LEO spaceflight. Dragon V2 lacks that magical thing and is therefore
banished to LEO flights for all eternity!


Yeah, I really don't get this. Orion has a duration of 21 days with a
crew of 4. That's enough for lunar missions, but not much beyond
that. I don't find any figures for Dragon V2 active mission duration,
but I can't imagine that it's tremendously shorter for a crew of four,
given a crew reduction to the same crew of four that Orion can carry.


any deep space flights will absolutely require a deep space transit module, a mini station for easy to understand term.

easily done cheaply too with multiple launches by space X.

orion is just a excellent example of wasteful government spending

Here's more detail on the V2. SpaceX says it can stay on orbit for up to two years:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/...ew-spacecraft/

http://www.spacex.com/dragon

Now, this doesn't address the problem of consumables for crewed vehicles. However, we can see that only modest electrical power, with highly parallel (hence highly reliable) MEMS based chemical processors, can maintain water and air almost indefinitely.

Bull****, not with today's tech.

http://labs.fhcrc.org/roth/

Using the toxic gas, hydrogen sulfide, in small amounts, researchers found they can reversibly reduce the metabolic rate of mammals. Exposed to 80 ppm of hydrogen sulfide, animals enter hibernation. Their core temperature is reduced by 11 degrees Celsius and their metabolic rate drops 10-fold. Researchers have kept animals in this state for extended periods and they recover completely.

More lab bull**** from Mook, this time due to poor reading
comprehension.

From the site:

Using another highly toxic gas, hydrogen sulfide, we found
we can reversibly reduce the metabolic rate of mice: exposed
to 80 ppm of hydrogen sulfide, mice enter into what we call
a "hibernation-like" state, where their core temperature can
be reduced as much as 11 degrees and their metabolic rate as
judged by carbon dioxide production and oxygen consumption
drops 10-fold. We've kept the animals in this state for 6
hours and they recover completely.

Our success in altering the metabolic rate of these mammals
has given us the tools to pursue several promising lines of
research, including whether it might be possible to 'suspend'
human organs (for transplant) or to 'buy time' for human
patients in trauma.

They put "hibernation-like" in quotes so as not to confuse people since
this is *not* hibernation. And even if it were, 6 hours in mice doesn't
mean it will work in people for extended periods of time. That's just
your usual jumping to conclusions without facts in evidence.

Our success in altering the metabolic rate of mammals allows
the pursuit of several promising lines of research, including;

(1) suspension of human organs (for transplant);
(2) buy time for human trauma patients;

The above two are what the researchers are claim as *possible*
applications after years, possibly decades, of more research.

(3) suspension of prisoners and animals to reduce risks/costs of captivity;
(4) suspension of astronaut crews to reduce risks/costs of transit;

These two are your typical Mook fantasy style extrapolations off into
science fiction and fantasy. In other words, pure bull****.

In this way a completely reversible process might be considered
for crews engaged in long range interplanetary travel.

The ability to suspend a crews for up to 6 years would give
us access to the solar system out to Saturn, and the ability
to survive until rescued. The ability to suspend crews for
up to 60 years would give us access to the Kuiper belt.

So, you're willing to entertain the notion that you can extrapolate a 6
hour experiment with mice to 6 years with people? That is three orders
of magnitude increase in time and three orders of magnitude in the
organism's mass, to say nothing of the differences in biology.

If wishes were fishes we'd all cast nets. But they're not, are they
Mook?

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

On Saturday, May 9, 2015 at 8:44:55 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 7:53:11 AM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
There is something *magic* about Orion that makes it capable of beyond
LEO spaceflight. Dragon V2 lacks that magical thing and is therefore
banished to LEO flights for all eternity!


Yeah, I really don't get this. Orion has a duration of 21 days with a
crew of 4. That's enough for lunar missions, but not much beyond
that. I don't find any figures for Dragon V2 active mission duration,
but I can't imagine that it's tremendously shorter for a crew of four,
given a crew reduction to the same crew of four that Orion can carry.


any deep space flights will absolutely require a deep space transit module, a mini station for easy to understand term.

easily done cheaply too with multiple launches by space X.

orion is just a excellent example of wasteful government spending

Here's more detail on the V2. SpaceX says it can stay on orbit for up to two years:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/...ew-spacecraft/

http://www.spacex.com/dragon

Now, this doesn't address the problem of consumables for crewed vehicles. However, we can see that only modest electrical power, with highly parallel (hence highly reliable) MEMS based chemical processors, can maintain water and air almost indefinitely.

Bull****, not with today's tech.

http://labs.fhcrc.org/roth/

Using the toxic gas, hydrogen sulfide, in small amounts, researchers found they can reversibly reduce the metabolic rate of mammals. Exposed to 80 ppm of hydrogen sulfide, animals enter hibernation. Their core temperature is reduced by 11 degrees Celsius and their metabolic rate drops 10-fold. Researchers have kept animals in this state for extended periods and they recover completely.

More lab bull**** from Mook, this time due to poor reading
comprehension.

The only one spouting bull**** here is the person who values their gut feelings over laboratory results. That person is you.


From the site:

Using another highly toxic gas, hydrogen sulfide, we found
we can reversibly reduce the metabolic rate of mice: exposed
to 80 ppm of hydrogen sulfide, mice enter into what we call
a "hibernation-like" state, where their core temperature can
be reduced as much as 11 degrees and their metabolic rate as
judged by carbon dioxide production and oxygen consumption
drops 10-fold. We've kept the animals in this state for 6
hours and they recover completely.

Our success in altering the metabolic rate of these mammals
has given us the tools to pursue several promising lines of
research, including whether it might be possible to 'suspend'
human organs (for transplant) or to 'buy time' for human
patients in trauma.

They put "hibernation-like" in quotes so as not to confuse people since
this is *not* hibernation.

Glad you read the link. You said earlier you didn't read my links. Well, your reply is nonsense. If you'd trouble yourself to listen to Roth's lectures he describes hibernation that way because he's a careful researcher and because there is no real scientific understanding of what causes hibernation in the first place. He says hibernation like because we know the effects of hibernation, but we don't know how animals do it. So, he doesn't want to say that he knows how hibernation works, only that he can induce a radical reduction in CELLULAR metabolism that is totally reversible. That's functionally hibernation.

What he does know is that hydrogen sulfide causes a series of EASILY REVERSIBLE cellular changes that induces hibernation effects. For the average person - it is hibernation. Cellular metabolism is reduced to 10% of 'sleeping' state metabolism - at easily reversible levels of exposure. Levels that run some risk of requiring heroic measures to revive the subject, reduce cellular metabolism to 1% and less. These higher levels in combination with chilling of the organism, stop cellular metabolism completely - and is reversible in MOST cases (though some die despite heroic measures).

Understanding the mechanism of action - at the cellular level - will likely lead to improvements that dispense with heroic measures. This will entail taking a series of drugs to reduce side effects before exposure to the gas at higher levels combined with automatic injections of other drugs prior to elimination of the gas and re-awakening.

This is huge. The development of this technology opens the solar system to human exploration and development.


And even if it were, 6 hours in mice doesn't
mean it will work in people for extended periods of time.

Yes it does since the process is clearly cell specific and mechanism of organism changes is well understood. We know the major mechanism of action, we understand there is a process that leads to easily reversible CELLULAR LEVEL changes that radically reduce metabolism, that there is clear benefit in solving these problems, they will be solved, and will be used in the way, and in the application chain I've outlined over the next five to six years..


That's just
your usual jumping to conclusions without facts in evidence.

You're the one jumping to highly emotional conclusions based on you NOT reading any papers or attending any lectures. lol.

Our success in altering the metabolic rate of mammals allows
the pursuit of several promising lines of research, including;

(1) suspension of human organs (for transplant);
(2) buy time for human trauma patients;

The above two are what the researchers are claim as *possible*
applications after years, possibly decades, of more research.

Both have been approved for human trials.


(3) suspension of prisoners and animals to reduce risks/costs of captivity;
(4) suspension of astronaut crews to reduce risks/costs of transit;

These two are your typical Mook fantasy style extrapolations off into
science fiction and fantasy. In other words, pure bull****.

Well informed extrapolations by knowledgeable intelligent people familiar with a subject are useful. You are the one spouting bull**** based on what you don't know.

Fact is, suspended animation is already approved as a trauma treatment and is in human and animal trials, its already being used to preserve organs, regulators are already looking at it as a way to reduce prison costs (and expand the prison population), environmentalists are looking at the potential to save endangered species.

http://www.cnet.com/news/suspended-a...gin-on-humans/

In this way a completely reversible process might be considered
for crews engaged in long range interplanetary travel.

The ability to suspend a crews for up to 6 years would give
us access to the solar system out to Saturn, and the ability
to survive until rescued. The ability to suspend crews for
up to 60 years would give us access to the Kuiper belt.

So, you're willing to entertain the notion that you can extrapolate a 6
hour experiment with mice to 6 years with people?

Only because those are the goals we must meet with an easily used system. Automated intravenous drug delivery is well-established technology. We already control the atmosphere of space vehicles. Making a minor change in the atmosphere (adding 80 ppm H2S) in combination with other drugs, is easily made to a manned spacecraft.

So, because the benefits are huge and the technical requirements modest, once the details are worked out, I'm willing to envision widespread use of hibernation.

The same way Bell envisioned a national telephone network after saying, "Watson come here" in 1876 or

The same way the Wrights envisioned air travel after returning from a vacation at Kitty Hawk after flying 120 feet in 12 seconds in 1903 or

The same way an Berkeley drop out, part time apple picker, stock room attendant at Hewlett Packard and part time Atari repairman taking his Atari bonus and building a homebrew computer in 1975 envisioned becoming a global computer company like IBM.

That is three orders
of magnitude increase in time and three orders of magnitude in the
organism's mass, to say nothing of the differences in biology.

Yeah, you're right - I forgot about the orders of magnitude thing - so add - that dreamy eyed Fairchild R&D director who in a 1965 internal memo drew a line through four points plotted on a semi-log graph from 1956 to 1963 who predicted that the number of components possible on an IC would rise from 65 components to 65,000 components.

By 1995 over 5 million elements per circuit were made at low cost. Today over 1 billion elements per circuit and it doesn't look like its stopping soon.

All this despite the changing mass of these circuits and the difference in physical processes used in their manufacture. This led Carver Mead to dub the line 'Moore's Law'. Maybe you've heard of it?



If wishes were fishes we'd all cast nets.

Yet those who do not cast nets do not catch fish.

But they're not, are they
Mook?

haha - you know it always comes to the point where your unfortunate childhood abuse comes to the fore as a clear explanation of your nastiness toward anyone who is free of the sort of abuse you suffered. I don't really know how to respond to that except to laugh nervously - despite the pain you must bear every waking moment of your life.

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

NOTE ON SUSPENDED ANIMATION AND ITS IMPACT ON SPACE POLICY

A reduction in cellular metabolism to 10% of resting state entails shallow breathing and slow heart beat. This is easily achieved with exposure to 80 ppm hydrogen sulfide in the blood. Its easily reversible and has been sustained for 6 hours. This treatment has been approved for human trials in trauma treatment - where extending the 'golden hour' from 1 hour to 6 is a massive improvement.

So what's the deal with reducing metabolism to 1% of resting state? Well, the response is dose dependent and dosage can increase to this level quite easily. So what's the problem? At that point breathing stops along with heart beat. Blood coagulates, which can be dealt with if you inject blood thinner before exposure. This is how hibernating animals can go under for months and revive. But it takes heroic measures to restart the heart. Yet somehow animals as large as bears have some sort of mechanism that restarts their hearts without electrical stimulation. So, there's sound reason to believe there is a simple biochemical mechanism that can be exploited to achieve that. There are other issues as well. For example, chemically induced pneumonia is a possibility yet again bears seem to have flaps that seal off their lungs when hibernating. This suggests mechanisms that can be worn like gas masks - that under computer control deal with this aspect.

The point is there's every reason to believe that suspended animation is easily achieved and will become part of our space mission planning in five to six years - even at modest levels of funding today. Since it takes that long to design and bring on line a space mission, its reasonable to consider the availability of suspended animation in our planning TODAY.

So what?

Well, with a TSTO-RLV and a solar powered ion rocket with 54 km/sec exhaust speed, using lightweight thin film concentrating solar collectors, with 20 kW per kg, we have everything we need today to plan missions anywhere in the solar system out to Saturn.

Can we really expect that we can extend hibernation from 7 months we see in some animals to 6 years in humans?

A tree-living wood frog Lithobates sylvaticus is an amphibian that's found in a broad geographic area ranging from the Southeastern United States to the Brooks Range of Alaska and the Mackenzie River Delta of Arctic Canada, is the animal with the longest hibernation period. Research shows that its deep-freeze period extends up to seven months a year.

What's the reason this tree frog doesn't hibernate longer? Well, they hibernate until conditions are right for them to reproduce. When we prolong their hibernation period by putting them in a temperature controlled refrigerator, we find that they tend to die as they dry out. If you maintain temperature near freezing and just above, and keep them in an environment that doesn't dry them out, their hibernation period can be extended indefinitely - or as long as researchers have attempted to keep them alive.

So, this suggests a clear path to long-term hibernation for humans.

(1) treatment with drugs to help restart the heart
(2) treatment with drugs to help survive extreme cold
(3) closure of air passages to avoid contamination
(4) reduction of temperature to near freezing (but above),
(5) maintain a hydrated environment,
(6) treatment with drugs to avoid seizures while awakening and warming,
(7) integration of methods so they are automated and easy to use.

On Saturday, May 9, 2015 at 3:44:32 PM UTC-4, Fred J. McCall wrote:
William Mook wrote:

NOTE ON SUSPENDED ANIMATION AND ITS IMPACT ON SPACE POLICY

A reduction in cellular metabolism to 10% of resting state entails shallow breathing and slow heart beat. This is easily achieved with exposure to 80 ppm hydrogen sulfide in the blood.


In mice.

What about the term 'approved for human testing' don't you get?

A 29-year-old skier in Norway went for nine hours without a heartbeat and survived without any neurological damage. Her core temperature fell to below 14 degrees C. This was the result of an accident certainly, and not willfully induced, but it is suggestive of what is possible with healthy people.



Its easily reversible and has been sustained for 6 hours.


In mice.

Them too. Things have progressed since 2005. You don't get that.

Roth's 2005 study suggested that H2S has medical benefits to slow the metabolic activity of critically ill patients - including soldiers -- who face extensive injury or death from blood loss or insufficient oxygen, thus buying time until they can be properly treated. The company is currently conducting phase II trials on a proprietary, injectable sodium sulfide liquid with human patients suffering heart disease. A group of physician researchers in Germany previously tested the product in pigs and found that it produced a 70 percent reduction in damaged heart muscle when used on pigs during coronary bypass surgery.

Injectable H2S liquid in combination with chilling trauma patients with cold salt solution replacing blood is also underway.

http://www.wired.com/2010/02/mark-roth-on-mice-and-men/

http://www.popsci.com/article/scienc...nded-animation




This treatment has been approved for human trials in trauma treatment - where extending the 'golden hour' from 1 hour to 6 is a massive improvement..


No, what's been approved is a different procedure that has at least a
10% mortality rate when tested in pigs.

You are obviously misreading 10 year old R&D and making foolish conclusions based on that misunderstanding.

snip remaining MookLunacy unread

Interesting that you set yourself up as a sci.space.policy maven and say nothing useful about space policy preferring to focus on B.S. lol. Even if you must erase all references to space policy to do that.


--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates

On Saturday, May 9, 2015 at 4:13:39 PM UTC-4, JF Mezei wrote:
Re experiment to slow metabolism on mice which Mr Mook says is reversible..

Were they able to to discuss the experience with the subjects to see if
there was any impact of their cognitive and other brain functions ?

Roth reports that injectable hydrogen sulfide solution allows in combination with chilling to 14 C seems ideal. The order of things is important. Some people exposed to extreme cold in freakish skiing accidents have survived without heartbeat for up to 9 hours without any loss of cognitive function.

On Saturday, May 9, 2015 at 3:39:57 PM UTC-4, Fred J. McCall wrote:
William Mook wrote:

On Saturday, May 9, 2015 at 8:44:55 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:

More lab bull**** from Mook, this time due to poor reading
comprehension.


The only one spouting bull**** here is the person who values their gut feelings over laboratory results. That person is you.


Uh, no.

Yes.

He's not the one taking short term experiments on mice and
acting like it's proven to work long term on people. That would be
you.

He's attacking research because it contradicts his view of things and is unaware of the current state of art in this field. You are attempting to spin that into a misunderstanding of what I'm talking about. Fact is, Roth's process is in human trials.


They put "hibernation-like" in quotes so as not to confuse people since
this is *not* hibernation.


If you'd trouble yourself to listen to Roth's lectures he describes hibernation that way because he's a careful researcher...


And because you are NOT a careful researcher

Nonsense.

(or even a careful
reader),

Nonsense on stilts.

you extrapolate from short term experiments on mice to acting
as if long term effects on humans is a done deal.

No, your friend mentioned mice, apparently unaware of the human trials, and now you're trying to make the argument I said something about mice. lol. Fact is, the process is in human trials. Fact is, humans have survived under freakish accidents for up to 9 hours without loss of mental function. Fact is, a wide range of animals in nature, as complex as a bear, can go for months in hibernation naturally. This all suggests this is a viable avenue of research. Looking at the amount of money spent on this project and the results thus far, its clear that it could be a viable technology in the time frame of say developing a fusion engine, and done so for far less money. The results once achieved would give us access to the solar system and beyond with today's propulsion and life support systems.




What he does know is that hydrogen sulfide causes a series of EASILY REVERSIBLE cellular changes that induces hibernation effects. For the average person - it is hibernation. Cellular metabolism is reduced to 10% of 'sleeping' state metabolism - at easily reversible levels of exposure. Levels that run some risk of requiring heroic measures to revive the subject, reduce cellular metabolism to 1% and less. These higher levels in combination with chilling of the organism, stop cellular metabolism completely - and is reversible in MOST cases (though some die despite heroic measures).


No, we don't know any such thing.

Yes they do.

Which part of 'short-term
experiments with mice' is it that's confusing you?

WHat part of 'human trials' and 'survived 9 hours exposure with no heart beat' or 'this tree frog hibernates for up to 7 months, and in laboratories has survived years in refrigeration' don' you understand?



And even if it were, 6 hours in mice doesn't
mean it will work in people for extended periods of time.


Yes it does ...


And there's the constant problem with Mookie; handwavium

There's a constant problem with you making things up and attacking me for no damn good reason.


extrapolations for which there is no evidence at all.

Except Roth has formed Ikaria Holdings and partnered with a medical research group and is engaged in human trials.




That's just
your usual jumping to conclusions without facts in evidence.


You're the one jumping to highly emotional conclusions based on you NOT reading any papers or attending any lectures. lol.


Mook, you seriously need treatment

No I don't. YOU are clueless, someone YOU dislike tells you something YOU don't know, or don't understand, and YOU dislike them even more and as a consequence YOU attack them. This suggests YOU are the one in need of treatment.

to learn to differentiate between
evidence and your own delusions.

So, my stock in Ikaria Holdings is a delusion is it?


The above two are what the researchers are claim as *possible*
applications after years, possibly decades, of more research.


Both have been approved for human trials.


So they're decades out before they're proven.

You do understand that Ikaria has raised sufficient money to complete a Phase II clinical trial don't you? You do understand the development time it takes to achieve acceptance for emergency procedures? I mean they were using super glue to weld patient organs together in Vietnam well before they did in hospital settings outside the battle field. This stuff will be ready for use by astronauts and soldiers in five to six years. Prisoners and trauma patients in less than 10.



(3) suspension of prisoners and animals to reduce risks/costs of captivity;
(4) suspension of astronaut crews to reduce risks/costs of transit;

These two are your typical Mook fantasy style extrapolations off into
science fiction and fantasy. In other words, pure bull****.


Well informed extrapolations by knowledgeable intelligent people familiar with a subject are useful.


Yes, they are.

I'm glad we agree on that.

However, what they're not 'useful for is leaping to
conclusions like you do.

Yet my previous statement describes what I'm doing. Your statement above describes what you're doing in this case.


You are the one spouting bull**** based on what you don't know.

No, I'm reporting here what I know. You are behaving badly and saying unfortunate things because of what you don't know. You then project your embarassment on to me.

Seek help.


Fact is, suspended animation is already approved as a trauma treatment and is in human and animal trials, its already being used to preserve organs, regulators are already looking at it as a way to reduce prison costs (and expand the prison population), environmentalists are looking at the potential to save endangered species.

http://www.cnet.com/news/suspended-a...gin-on-humans/


Do you EVER read your own cites, Mook, or is it just that you're too
stupid to understand them? "The technique, therefore, will only be
used as an emergency measure on patients who have suffered cardiac
arrest after severe traumatic injury, with their chest cavity open and
having lost at least half their blood already."

Now you're changing the goal posts. Which I guess is a good thing, we're moving past the mice thing. Point is the treatment is in human trial. That's the point. More than mice. If you look at what Ikaria has filed with the FDA and other literature you can see there is every reason to think this is a viable technology that will give us access to the solar system.



In other words, nowhere near ready for prime time, since experiments
with pigs indicate AT LEAST a 10% mortality rate. And note that it's
not the same procedure that you're pointing to using.

You are the one not able to read with understanding just WHY those pigs died in those German studies. They intended to cause death to see what the envelope was. Even when they tried ONLY 10% died. Now we know the range of what is possible - under these circumstances - and how those circumstances might be tweaked to attain better results even under extreme conditions.



So, you're willing to entertain the notion that you can extrapolate a 6
hour experiment with mice to 6 years with people?


Only because those are the goals we must meet with an easily used system..


So your thinking is that it will work and be easily achievable because
it MUST work to sustain your delusions?

No, because something as complex as a bear or a frog can survive for months to years in hibernation by exploiting similar chemical pathways to slow their cellular metabolism. You really should read the literature before making dumbass statements.

The point is these complex animals survive and thrive after. How do they restart their heart? How do they protect themselves from blood coagulating? How do they avoid pneumonia?

This all suggests that humans could survive as well and as long, and with understanding, could do better.

A 6 year hibernation is needed to open the solar system. 60 years gives us the Kuper belt and a shot at the stars. I'm not saying that. Physics says that. Tree frogs and bears survive every year up to 7 months in hibernation. Freak accidents have caused people to survive 9 hours without a heartbeat in freezing water. This suggests that some effort should be made to see if 6 years to 60 years

Yeah, that's a convincing
argument ... if you're a nutter.

Yet, you're the one ignoring reality and spouting offensive things because that reality violates your sense of propriety.


So, because the benefits are huge and the technical requirements modest, once the details are worked out, I'm willing to envision widespread use of hibernation.


The details are NOT 'worked out', you havering loon.

Yes they are you arrogant asshole.

The details will
not be 'worked out' for decades,

They are being worked out now, and Ikaria Holdings and the FDA are looking at 3 to 5 years for widespread use of the hydrogen sulfide injections in a wide range of applications.

even assuming they CAN be worked out,

Animal and human models suggest they can.

which is only a given to those who can't shed their own delusional
twaddle.

So, you won't be working on it any time soon. Got it.

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine

Yes, you are insane and stupid - so this is what your subconscious is telling you when that remark looks good to your conscious mind. See how it works?

In article ,
says...

Jeff Findley wrote:

So, you're willing to entertain the notion that you can extrapolate a 6
hour experiment with mice to 6 years with people? That is three orders
of magnitude increase in time and three orders of magnitude in the
organism's mass, to say nothing of the differences in biology.

If wishes were fishes we'd all cast nets. But they're not, are they
Mook?


I don't suppose he's loony enough to engage in self-experimentation on
this?

Without a MEMS based life support system? I doubt it. That's no doubt
still on order from a Chinese rapid prototyping facility.

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer

In article ,
says...

On Saturday, May 9, 2015 at 3:39:57 PM UTC-4, Fred J. McCall wrote:
William Mook wrote:

On Saturday, May 9, 2015 at 8:44:55 AM UTC-4, Jeff Findley wrote:

More lab bull**** from Mook, this time due to poor reading
comprehension.


The only one spouting bull**** here is the person who values their gut feelings over laboratory results. That person is you.


Uh, no.

Yes.

He's not the one taking short term experiments on mice and
acting like it's proven to work long term on people. That would be
you.

He's attacking research because it contradicts his view of things and is unaware of the current state of art in this field. You are attempting to spin that into a misunderstanding of what I'm talking about. Fact is, Roth's process is in human trials.


They put "hibernation-like" in quotes so as not to confuse people since
this is *not* hibernation.


If you'd trouble yourself to listen to Roth's lectures he describes hibernation that way because he's a careful researcher...


And because you are NOT a careful researcher

Nonsense.

(or even a careful
reader),

Nonsense on stilts.

you extrapolate from short term experiments on mice to acting
as if long term effects on humans is a done deal.

No, your friend mentioned mice, apparently unaware of the human trials, and now you're trying to make the argument I said something about mice. lol. Fact is, the process is in human trials. Fact is, humans have survived under freakish accidents for up to 9 hours without loss of mental function. Fact is, a wide range of animals in nature, as complex as a bear, can go for months in hibernation naturally. This all suggests this is a viable avenue of research. Looking
at the amount of money spent on this project and the results thus far, its clear that it could be a viable technology in the time frame of say developing a fusion engine, and done so for far less money. The results once achieved would give us access to the solar system and beyond with today's propulsion and life support systems.

Actually, the website *you* pointed us to mentioned mice. If you wanted
us to read about human trials, you should have posted a different link.

At any rate, trials underway do not mean trials have been completed.
Trials underway doesn't mean successful trials either. You're counting
your chickens before they've hatched for the umpteenth time.

Extrapolation by orders of magnitude without any real evidence that the
extrapolation is valid is your forte. This defines Mook math. It is
your unique ability to leap to conclusions with little to no evidence
based on lab results you've found on the Internet.

Guess what? Most lab results do not lead to breakthroughs. Instead,
most lab results result in papers and more studies. We can't build a
space program solely on papers and studies, that would be bad *space
policy*.

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer