Why Christer and not Suni for EVA-4?

"Craig Fink" wrote in message
news
So did the Shuttle pick up the Camera on their way back home? I doubt it
would have been very much delta-V.

I seriously doubt it. The risk to the shuttle and an EVA crew would clearly
be non-zero, so why risk the shuttle and crew for a camera?

This is especially true when you consider the cost of the camera is low
compared to the likely cost to recover the camera. Pay a few people at NASA
a few hours of overtime to look into planning a rendezvous and an EVA to
recover the camera and you could buy several new cameras.

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

Jeff Findley wrote:
This is especially true when you consider the cost of the camera is low
compared to the likely cost to recover the camera. Pay a few people at NASA
a few hours of overtime to look into planning a rendezvous and an EVA to
recover the camera and you could buy several new cameras.


Actually, this could have been seen as an opportunity. Sure, the camera is
cheap. But it could have been used as target practice.

Say the object were a dead crewmember who was hit by micrometeorite during
EVA and was drifting away. Wouldn't there be some fairly high priority to
retrieve the body ?

The arm may not be able to grapple the object (human or camera). But they
may be able to manoeuver the shuttle so the object is just over the cargo
bay, then slowly lower/raise shuttle so that the object would end up inside
the cargo bay and perhaps use the arm to pin the object down. You'd still
need an eva to either secure the object with straps/whatever in the cargo
bay for re-entry or bring it into the cabin.

On the other hand, with the US space programme set to regress back into the
1960s with litte functionality, such exercises might be fun bt pointless
since much of the experience gained with the shuttle's unique capabilities
becomes redundant after 2010.

Don't forget the pictures. Cameras can be replaced, but the pictures are
priceless!

I wouldn't call it a total regression back to the sixties. Go look at the
first space walk (Gemini). What did the astronaut have in his hand? How
does his voice sound? I checked it out at my local library awhile ago, it
was Great video. There was Joy in his voice. He was having a great time at
the end of a tether. Seem a little bit bummed that when he ran out of gas
(the thing in his had).

On sailboats, if your teaching someone new how to get around. Sometimes
it's good to see if they have learned it all. Throw a fender overboard
(surprise) and have a man overboard drill. It's fun, lets the person put
all the things they've learned to use. And, gives the skipper a nice warm
feeling that the novice sailor would be able to start the motor, take down
sails and maneuver.

And risk, there is no risk. If any, it's so small compared to the risk of
ascent or entry, it's way below the noise level of risk. But, there is
tons of reward. Training, Joy, an impromptu adventure, Testing,
brainstorming, real time proceedures...

A fishing net on the end of the arm would look really cool. Add an
astronaut flying with a SAFER right next to it to film the catch would be
way too cool. As a taxpayer NASA administrator shaking head as he lowers
it into his hands, thinks, ah gees one of those, I feel like I didn't
get my moneys worth on this one. No cool video of an astronaut leaping
after a cameras. Astronauts afraid of touching little wires to clip the
ends to study and improve. No minimum time to undock drill to rescue
crewman Kodak, as she slowly drifts away. The joy to dull ratio in the
astronauts voices was way too low.I missed most of the daily highlights,
just some random tuning in

A great opportunity missed. An opportunity for some impromptu training
saving crewman Kodak, capturing some memories (don't for get the pictures)
and some good "old" fashion fun.

Sure looks like NASA has left their cool camera by the side of the road,
so to speek. I'd say they pretty much abandoned it. Anybody want a free
camera? Cool pics included.

--
Craig Fink
Courtesy E-Mail Welcome @
--

On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:16:02-0500, John Doe wrote:

Jeff Findley wrote:
This is especially true when you consider the cost of the camera is low
compared to the likely cost to recover the camera. Pay a few people at NASA
a few hours of overtime to look into planning a rendezvous and an EVA to
recover the camera and you could buy several new cameras.


Actually, this could have been seen as an opportunity. Sure, the camera is
cheap. But it could have been used as target practice.

Say the object were a dead crewmember who was hit by micrometeorite during
EVA and was drifting away. Wouldn't there be some fairly high priority to
retrieve the body ?

The arm may not be able to grapple the object (human or camera). But they
may be able to manoeuver the shuttle so the object is just over the cargo
bay, then slowly lower/raise shuttle so that the object would end up inside
the cargo bay and perhaps use the arm to pin the object down. You'd still
need an eva to either secure the object with straps/whatever in the cargo
bay for re-entry or bring it into the cabin.

On the other hand, with the US space programme set to regress back into the
1960s with litte functionality, such exercises might be fun bt pointless
since much of the experience gained with the shuttle's unique capabilities
becomes redundant after 2010.

"John Doe" wrote in message
...
Jeff Findley wrote:
This is especially true when you consider the cost of the camera is low
compared to the likely cost to recover the camera. Pay a few people at
NASA a few hours of overtime to look into planning a rendezvous and an
EVA to recover the camera and you could buy several new cameras.


Actually, this could have been seen as an opportunity. Sure, the camera is
cheap. But it could have been used as target practice.

Again, it's not worth the non-zero risk to the orbiter and crew. What if
the camera smacks something critical like the wing leading edge RCC and
creates a crack in it? Even if you could get the orbiter back to ISS, you
now have to launch a rescue mission and attempt to land the damaged orbiter
without a crew on board.

Even EVA carries a certain risk that mission planners have to seriously
consider. NASA isn't going to do an EVA to recover a dropped camera as some
sort of "target practice".


If "target practice" is truly desired, NASA would put together another "free
flyer" type of payload for a shuttle mission. Note that NASA had already
done free flyers in the past and they certainly involved a lot of planning,
engineering, simulations, and etc.

Say the object were a dead crewmember who was hit by micrometeorite during
EVA and was drifting away. Wouldn't there be some fairly high priority to
retrieve the body ?

Possibly, but we were talking about a camera that can be easily replaced,
not a dead crewmember.

On the other hand, with the US space programme set to regress back into
the 1960s with litte functionality, such exercises might be fun bt
pointless since much of the experience gained with the shuttle's unique
capabilities becomes redundant after 2010.

Much of the shuttle's "unique capabilities" are either not needed, or are so
expensive, they're not worth it at this point in time, especially
considering the low flight rate of the shuttle.

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

"Craig Fink" wrote in message
news
And risk, there is no risk. If any, it's so small compared to the risk of
ascent or entry, it's way below the noise level of risk. But, there is
tons of reward. Training, Joy, an impromptu adventure, Testing,
brainstorming, real time proceedures...

There's no risk trying to rendezvous with a camera? What happens if the
thing smacks the RCC and cracks it?

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:00:52 -0500, Jeff Findley wrote:


"Craig Fink" wrote in message
news
And risk, there is no risk. If any, it's so small compared to the risk of
ascent or entry, it's way below the noise level of risk. But, there is
tons of reward. Training, Joy, an impromptu adventure, Testing,
brainstorming, real time proceedures...

There's no risk trying to rendezvous with a camera? What happens if the
thing smacks the RCC and cracks it?

You don't really believe NASA astronauts and controllers are that bad do
you?

A great opportunity missed. An opportunity for some impromptu training
saving crewman Kodak, capturing some memories (don't for get the pictures)
and some good "old" fashion fun.

Sure looks like NASA has left their cool camera by the side of the road,
so to speek. I'd say they pretty much abandoned it. Anybody want a free
camera? Cool pics included.
Craig, I'd side with Jeff F. on this one - agreed is sure would look
neat and be exciting and all, but - it's a camera, worth MAYBE $10K at
most. Why risk a multi-million (billion?) dollar vehicle, and several
lives to try this stunt?

The process is far more complicated and has many more possibilities
for dangerous failures (I'm sure Jorge Frank or others can elaborate
on them far better than I can) than your average man overboard dummy
drill. Worst you see in that earth based drill is maybe you puddle
around a bit in circles and get wet if you screw up. In space if you
screw up you can die pretty easy in some cases.....we don't yet have a
"coast guard" we can call to come bail out someone that gets in over
their head up there.

===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 262 677 0766
President +1 206 374 6482 FAX
Netwrx Consulting Inc. Jackson, WI USA
http://www.netwrx1.com

ICQ #12862186

"Craig Fink" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:00:52 -0500, Jeff Findley wrote:


"Craig Fink" wrote in message
news
And risk, there is no risk. If any, it's so small compared to the risk
of
ascent or entry, it's way below the noise level of risk. But, there is
tons of reward. Training, Joy, an impromptu adventure, Testing,
brainstorming, real time proceedures...

There's no risk trying to rendezvous with a camera? What happens if the
thing smacks the RCC and cracks it?

You don't really believe NASA astronauts and controllers are that bad do
you?

I think that from a safety point of view, on such short notice, NASA
management wouldn't *any* risk trying to rendezvous with a small, inactive
target like a camera for fear of something like that happening. Consider
that in a situation like this the engineers wouldn't have enough time to
come up with the engineering data to prove it would be safe to attempt a
retrieval.

From a cost point of view NASA management wouldn't bother looking into
retrieving something as "inexpensive" as a camera. Remember, "inexpensive"
is relative to the cost of the mission or to the shuttle's yearly budget.

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:18:31 -0600, George R. Kasica wrote:

A great opportunity missed. An opportunity for some impromptu training
saving crewman Kodak, capturing some memories (don't for get the
pictures) and some good "old" fashion fun.

Sure looks like NASA has left their cool camera by the side of the road,
so to speek. I'd say they pretty much abandoned it. Anybody want a free
camera? Cool pics included.
Craig, I'd side with Jeff F. on this one - agreed is sure would look
neat and be exciting and all, but - it's a camera, worth MAYBE $10K at
most. Why risk a multi-million (billion?) dollar vehicle, and several
lives to try this stunt?

You forgot the pictures. A Kodak moment. Crewman Kodak still has her
memory intact, it's the memories that are priceless.

The process is far more complicated and has many more possibilities for
dangerous failures (I'm sure Jorge Frank or others can elaborate on them
far better than I can) than your average man overboard dummy drill.
Worst you see in that earth based drill is maybe you puddle around a bit
in circles and get wet if you screw up. In space if you screw up you can
die pretty easy in some cases.....we don't yet have a "coast guard" we
can call to come bail out someone that gets in over their head up there.

Has NASA actually done a man overboard drill? They do fire drills in the
Space Station.

To me it seems they're almost paralyzed by fear. Comfort only comes from
intensely choreographed procedures, simulations and studied to the
Nth-degree. I think we'll look back at NASA attitudes about spacewalks of
the decades of the 90s 00s and 10s from a different perspective. Hanging
out at the end of a tether will be common, actually using the jet pack to
get around, hand held thrusters will make a come back. Tethers and
thruster together, what fun. They're not moving at 17,000 mph, but only a
few feet/second, it's all relative. Orbital Mechanics at low relative
velocities, what fun.

It's be interesting if NASA astronauts actually does journey to Mars,
where communication times grow beyond having someone look over your
shoulder during a spacewalk.

I wonder what an Actual NASA Camera that actually flew would go for on
E-Bay? I'd bet it would be more than $10K, it's worth over $100K on-orbit.

most. Why risk a multi-million (billion?) dollar vehicle, and several
lives to try this stunt?
You forgot the pictures. A Kodak moment. Crewman Kodak still has her
memory intact, it's the memories that are priceless.
I hope the above statement is said in jest, but my opinion only I
don't think these pictures justify risking several human lives to
recover....if the subject matter and circumstances were different
(much higher stakes) maybe I'd feel differently.

in circles and get wet if you screw up. In space if you screw up you can
die pretty easy in some cases.....we don't yet have a "coast guard" we
can call to come bail out someone that gets in over their head up there.
Has NASA actually done a man overboard drill? They do fire drills in the
Space Station.
True, but they don't use a real fire and undock the Soyuz during them.
The risk level is far lower. EVA at this point in our space flight
experience are still far from routine given the technology.

To me it seems they're almost paralyzed by fear. Comfort only comes from
intensely choreographed procedures, simulations and studied to the
Nth-degree. I think we'll look back at NASA attitudes about spacewalks of
Which is why they like to rehears them ump-teen times in the giant
pool in Houston before they try them up on orbit. IF they don't get it
right there they get wet, if they don't get it right on orbit they
might get dead.

the decades of the 90s 00s and 10s from a different perspective. Hanging
out at the end of a tether will be common, actually using the jet pack to
get around, hand held thrusters will make a come back. Tethers and
You may be right, but at the present time that technology isn't here
and what we have isn't in a state to allow us to safely and routinely
operate like that. I'll be the first one to cheer when it happens
trust me.

thruster together, what fun. They're not moving at 17,000 mph, but only a
few feet/second, it's all relative. Orbital Mechanics at low relative
velocities, what fun.
Agreed, until something goes wrong and you start drifting away at a
few feet a second from the station and the safer fails to fire, etc.
and then you have a real problem. The technology isn't designed to
allow that activity yet, its for redundant use only. You don't use
your safety systems as primary's unless you have a problem.

It's be interesting if NASA astronauts actually does journey to Mars,
where communication times grow beyond having someone look over your
shoulder during a spacewalk.
It will require new procedures and such for sure. I agree.

I wonder what an Actual NASA Camera that actually flew would go for on
E-Bay? I'd bet it would be more than $10K, it's worth over $100K on-orbit.
No idea, but I'm sure its not cheap, given what I've heard of a few
things like that getting auctioned off at. (Not on E-Bay).

===[George R. Kasica]=== +1 262 677 0766
President +1 206 374 6482 FAX
Netwrx Consulting Inc. Jackson, WI USA
http://www.netwrx1.com

ICQ #12862186