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Is NASA dying?? If so, whose fault is it?
On 2004-05-17, jacob navia wrote:
[Copied and redirected to ssh, since this possibly seems appropriate there, being as it is a little historical diversion which might be useful at an indefinite later point] Trips to America were risky and extremely expensive in 1492. The technology of that epoch required that the Queen Isabel of Spain sold most of her jewel treasury to finance it. It was a good investment of course, but trips [Warning - rambling by someone with no grounding in economics bar enthusiasm and knowing some words is to follow; please treat it as the bored-evening digression it is g] I've heard this a lot, pawning her jewels; how accurate is it, really? I mean, we're talking three fairly common merchant ships and provisioning, plus appropriate crews; not pocket change, but not exactly something you would expect to tax the resources of even the monarch of a backwater nation - especially when you consider that a year or so later, he sailed with seventeen ships and fifteen hundred colonists, and funding doesn't seem to have been a problem. 'Course, then he was talking gold g (I wonder if an appropriate modern analogy would be asking somewhere like .es or .nl to provide you some 747s... not unattainable, but not something they'd do off the cuff) [digs for a while] Hmm. It seems that Isabella may have offer to pawn her jewels, but it doesn't seem that she actually did; either or both parts of this may be apocryphal - and probably no more than a demonstration of her intent to carry through. Two of the ships were provided by the town of Palos, which was apparently owing the service of two caravels to the Crown (or Crowns?); crew and tack quite likely included. Some cites seem to indicate that the crown paid for the third (the Santa Maria), some that the town was strongarmed into providing it, some that it came with Pinzon when he joined the expedition. (the 1911 Britannica seems to suggest it just appeared one night, which is probably unlikely g) Lot of variety in the details between apparently authoritative accounts, which is only to be expected (given the wide disparity on, eg, how much Apollo cost...) All this aside... http://worldebooklibrary.com/eBooks/...03/cc02v10.htm (among others) The cost to the crown appears to have been on the order of a million maravedis, plus another couple of hundred thou from Columbus. http://dinsdoc.com/sumner-1.htm "The real was, therefore, 3.433 grams gross and 3.194 grams fine. It consisted of 34 maravedis." [apparently talking of silver] .... 93941.176470588235294117647058824 g.Ag to a million mar, sayeth my calculator with delightfully spurious accuracy! So, we're looking at a shade under 100kg of silver as the cost to the crown. That's not astoundingly much, really, even by contemporary standards... "The excelente was rated at eleven reals and one maravedi, the intention evidently being to rate the metals at 10 to 1" So in gold a shade under 10kg, three hundred-odd troy ounces. I don't seem to be able to find a contemporary context for that, but feel free to play; there should be a contemportary European figure or two in either gold or silver ounces. But I think we can all agree they got a pretty good return on their investment :-) -- -Andrew Gray |
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On 2004-05-17, Andrew Gray wrote:
On 2004-05-17, jacob navia wrote: [Copied and redirected to ssh, since this possibly seems appropriate there, being as it is a little historical diversion which might be useful at an indefinite later point] I really should have retitled that post... oh, well. I blame, um, coffee. -- -Andrew Gray |
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Andrew Gray writes:
On 2004-05-17, jacob navia wrote: [Copied and redirected to ssh, since this possibly seems appropriate there, being as it is a little historical diversion which might be useful at an indefinite later point] Trips to America were risky and extremely expensive in 1492. The technology of that epoch required that the Queen Isabel of Spain sold most of her jewel treasury to finance it. It was a good investment of course, but trips [Warning - rambling by someone with no grounding in economics bar enthusiasm and knowing some words is to follow; please treat it as the bored-evening digression it is g] I've heard this a lot, pawning her jewels; how accurate is it, really? Not at all. The *material* side of the expedition, Columbus could have financed privately. IIRC, he *did* come up with about a third of the cost out of pocket - the man was far from penniless - and I have no doubt that a couple of similarly enthusiastic and capable investors could have been found if needed. What Columbus wanted from Fred and Izzy was not so much material support as *political*. A private expedition would at best have come back with three shiploads of whatever treasure could be found by the first team of explorers. The Spanish Crown, could make Columbus the first Viceroy of the Spanish Indies, er, America, and so secure property rights to his discovery. This didn't work out as well for him as he hoped, but it was understandable. The first trip would be about establishing the market, probably not hugely profitable in itself. And, absent the political patronage, all the later, highly profitable ventures would be in competition with explorer/traders from half of Europe. If Columbus had been a sufficiently skilled trader to expect to prevail in open competition, he wouldn't have needed to go out on hairbrained voyages of discovery to make a name and fortune for himself. Being a better explorer than a trader, he needed the monopoly. -- *John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, * *Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" * *Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition * *White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute * * for success" * *661-718-0955 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition * |
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On 2004-05-17, John Schilling wrote:
I've heard this a lot, pawning her jewels; how accurate is it, really? Not at all. I forgot I still had that question at the start! The *material* side of the expedition, Columbus could have financed privately. IIRC, he *did* come up with about a third of the cost out of pocket - the man was far from penniless - and I have no doubt that a couple of similarly enthusiastic and capable investors could have been found if needed. FWIW, the numbers I found suggested around an eighth, but there *was* money around - the staggering potential incomes from undercutting the Portugese would have seen to that. (I always wondered why he didn't try and get funding by claiming to be going to sail east by a privately known route...) What Columbus wanted from Fred and Izzy was not so much material support as *political*. A private expedition would at best have come back with three shiploads of whatever treasure could be found by the first team of explorers. The Spanish Crown, could make Columbus the first Viceroy of the Spanish Indies, er, America, and so secure property rights to his discovery. This didn't work out as well for him as he hoped, but it was understandable. His early demands were... remarkable. Immediate provision of a title, major slices of the rights and the profits... it's no wonder he got turned down initially. Ah, well. I convinced myself how relatively trivial the cost was, which was the point of the exercise... :-) -- -Andrew Gray |
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Well, it's sure as hell not the fault of the operators of the Parkes radio
observatory! Just watched "The Dish". Reminds me a bit of "The Man Who Went Up A Hill And Came Down A Mountain". The little town didn't have much going for it, but they sure maximized what they had! Patrick Warburton showed that not every NASA stooge had a rod up his ass. |
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Andrew Gray wrote: FWIW, the numbers I found suggested around an eighth, but there *was* money around - the staggering potential incomes from undercutting the Portugese would have seen to that. ....and their was _other_ money around at the time; and where _it_ came from is a very interesting story indeed- in 1492, Ferdinand and Isabella expelled all the Jews from Spain, except those willing to convert to Christianity...those leaving Spain to maintain their religious beliefs had to leave all their money behind- shades of M.O.S. #3! In 1502, the Islamic population of Spain got the same deal. The reason Columbus had to depart from the minor port of Palos, rather than one of Spain's major ports was that all the other ports were clogged with departing Jews, who all had to leave Spain by August 31st. Thank you Larry Gonick and "The Cartoon History Of The Universe, Volume III". Pat |
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On Tue, 18 May 2004 02:04:15 -0500, Pat Flannery
wrote: In 1502, the Islamic population of Spain got the same deal. The reason Columbus had to depart from the minor port of Palos, rather than one of Spain's major ports was that all the other ports were clogged with departing Jews, who all had to leave Spain by August 31st. ....So, if Columbus had left for the New World in 1485, would the Americas have become the New Israel, then? :-) OM -- "No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society - General George S. Patton, Jr |
#8
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Pat Flannery wrote: Thank you Larry Gonick and "The Cartoon History Of The Universe, Volume III". And a wonderful resource that is, too.... |
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OM wrote: ...So, if Columbus had left for the New World in 1485, would the Americas have become the New Israel, then? :-) Actually, some Jews went on the voyage: http://www.jbuff.com/c100903.htm including his translator...maybe he was looking for the Lost Tribes? (Cut to scene of Mel Brooks from "Blazing Saddles" as Yiddish-speaking Indian chief.) In fact, there's speculation that Columbus himself was Jewish....although "Christopher" seems like an odd name for someone who's Jewish.... Pat |
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David Higgins wrote: Pat Flannery wrote: Thank you Larry Gonick and "The Cartoon History Of The Universe, Volume III". And a wonderful resource that is, too.... Can you imagine how many hours in took him to get to where he is at in it by now? It's up to 950 pages at the end of Vol. III, averaging about 6 panels per page; or around 5,700 panels total! I sure wish they'd give all the Junior High School kids copies of it- it's a ball to read. Pat |
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