A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Space Science » History
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Is NASA dying?? If so, whose fault is it?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 17th 04, 11:13 PM
Andrew Gray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is NASA dying?? If so, whose fault is it?

On 2004-05-17, jacob navia wrote:

[Copied and redirected to ssh, since this possibly seems appropriate
there, being as it is a little historical diversion which might be
useful at an indefinite later point]

Trips to America were risky and extremely expensive
in 1492. The technology of that epoch required that
the Queen Isabel of Spain sold most of her jewel treasury
to finance it. It was a good investment of course, but trips


[Warning - rambling by someone with no grounding in economics bar
enthusiasm and knowing some words is to follow; please treat it as the
bored-evening digression it is g]

I've heard this a lot, pawning her jewels; how accurate is it, really? I
mean, we're talking three fairly common merchant ships and provisioning,
plus appropriate crews; not pocket change, but not exactly something you
would expect to tax the resources of even the monarch of a backwater
nation - especially when you consider that a year or so later, he sailed
with seventeen ships and fifteen hundred colonists, and funding doesn't
seem to have been a problem. 'Course, then he was talking gold g

(I wonder if an appropriate modern analogy would be asking somewhere
like .es or .nl to provide you some 747s... not unattainable, but not
something they'd do off the cuff)

[digs for a while]

Hmm. It seems that Isabella may have offer to pawn her jewels, but it
doesn't seem that she actually did; either or both parts of this may be
apocryphal - and probably no more than a demonstration of her intent to
carry through.

Two of the ships were provided by the town of Palos, which was
apparently owing the service of two caravels to the Crown (or Crowns?);
crew and tack quite likely included. Some cites seem to indicate that
the crown paid for the third (the Santa Maria), some that the town was
strongarmed into providing it, some that it came with Pinzon when he
joined the expedition. (the 1911 Britannica seems to suggest it just
appeared one night, which is probably unlikely g) Lot of variety in
the details between apparently authoritative accounts, which is only to
be expected (given the wide disparity on, eg, how much Apollo cost...)

All this aside...

http://worldebooklibrary.com/eBooks/...03/cc02v10.htm

(among others)

The cost to the crown appears to have been on the order of a million
maravedis, plus another couple of hundred thou from Columbus.

http://dinsdoc.com/sumner-1.htm

"The real was, therefore, 3.433 grams gross and 3.194 grams fine. It
consisted of 34 maravedis." [apparently talking of silver]

.... 93941.176470588235294117647058824 g.Ag to a million mar, sayeth my
calculator with delightfully spurious accuracy!

So, we're looking at a shade under 100kg of silver as the cost to the
crown. That's not astoundingly much, really, even by contemporary
standards...

"The excelente was rated at eleven reals and one maravedi, the intention
evidently being to rate the metals at 10 to 1"

So in gold a shade under 10kg, three hundred-odd troy ounces. I don't
seem to be able to find a contemporary context for that, but feel free
to play; there should be a contemportary European figure or two in
either gold or silver ounces.

But I think we can all agree they got a pretty good return on their
investment :-)

--
-Andrew Gray

  #2  
Old May 17th 04, 11:18 PM
Andrew Gray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 2004-05-17, Andrew Gray wrote:
On 2004-05-17, jacob navia wrote:

[Copied and redirected to ssh, since this possibly seems appropriate
there, being as it is a little historical diversion which might be
useful at an indefinite later point]


I really should have retitled that post... oh, well. I blame, um,
coffee.

--
-Andrew Gray

  #3  
Old May 18th 04, 12:00 AM
John Schilling
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Andrew Gray writes:

On 2004-05-17, jacob navia wrote:


[Copied and redirected to ssh, since this possibly seems appropriate
there, being as it is a little historical diversion which might be
useful at an indefinite later point]


Trips to America were risky and extremely expensive
in 1492. The technology of that epoch required that
the Queen Isabel of Spain sold most of her jewel treasury
to finance it. It was a good investment of course, but trips


[Warning - rambling by someone with no grounding in economics bar
enthusiasm and knowing some words is to follow; please treat it as the
bored-evening digression it is g]


I've heard this a lot, pawning her jewels; how accurate is it, really?



Not at all. The *material* side of the expedition, Columbus could have
financed privately. IIRC, he *did* come up with about a third of the
cost out of pocket - the man was far from penniless - and I have no
doubt that a couple of similarly enthusiastic and capable investors
could have been found if needed.

What Columbus wanted from Fred and Izzy was not so much material support
as *political*. A private expedition would at best have come back with
three shiploads of whatever treasure could be found by the first team of
explorers. The Spanish Crown, could make Columbus the first Viceroy of
the Spanish Indies, er, America, and so secure property rights to his
discovery.

This didn't work out as well for him as he hoped, but it was understandable.
The first trip would be about establishing the market, probably not hugely
profitable in itself. And, absent the political patronage, all the later,
highly profitable ventures would be in competition with explorer/traders
from half of Europe. If Columbus had been a sufficiently skilled trader
to expect to prevail in open competition, he wouldn't have needed to go
out on hairbrained voyages of discovery to make a name and fortune for
himself. Being a better explorer than a trader, he needed the monopoly.


--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
* for success" *
*661-718-0955 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *

  #4  
Old May 18th 04, 12:22 AM
Andrew Gray
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 2004-05-17, John Schilling wrote:

I've heard this a lot, pawning her jewels; how accurate is it, really?


Not at all.


I forgot I still had that question at the start!

The *material* side of the expedition, Columbus could have
financed privately. IIRC, he *did* come up with about a third of the
cost out of pocket - the man was far from penniless - and I have no
doubt that a couple of similarly enthusiastic and capable investors
could have been found if needed.


FWIW, the numbers I found suggested around an eighth, but there *was*
money around - the staggering potential incomes from undercutting the
Portugese would have seen to that.

(I always wondered why he didn't try and get funding by claiming to
be going to sail east by a privately known route...)

What Columbus wanted from Fred and Izzy was not so much material support
as *political*. A private expedition would at best have come back with
three shiploads of whatever treasure could be found by the first team of
explorers. The Spanish Crown, could make Columbus the first Viceroy of
the Spanish Indies, er, America, and so secure property rights to his
discovery.

This didn't work out as well for him as he hoped, but it was understandable.


His early demands were... remarkable. Immediate provision of a title,
major slices of the rights and the profits... it's no wonder he got
turned down initially.

Ah, well. I convinced myself how relatively trivial the cost was, which
was the point of the exercise... :-)

--
-Andrew Gray

  #5  
Old May 18th 04, 02:04 AM
Scott Hedrick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well, it's sure as hell not the fault of the operators of the Parkes radio
observatory!

Just watched "The Dish". Reminds me a bit of "The Man Who Went Up A Hill And
Came Down A Mountain". The little town didn't have much going for it, but
they sure maximized what they had!

Patrick Warburton showed that not every NASA stooge had a rod up his ass.


  #6  
Old May 18th 04, 08:04 AM
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Andrew Gray wrote:

FWIW, the numbers I found suggested around an eighth, but there *was*
money around - the staggering potential incomes from undercutting the
Portugese would have seen to that.


....and their was _other_ money around at the time; and where _it_ came
from is a very interesting story indeed- in 1492, Ferdinand and Isabella
expelled all the Jews from Spain, except those willing to convert to
Christianity...those leaving Spain to maintain their religious beliefs
had to leave all their money behind- shades of M.O.S. #3!
In 1502, the Islamic population of Spain got the same deal. The reason
Columbus had to depart from the minor port of Palos, rather than one of
Spain's major ports was that all the other ports were clogged with
departing Jews, who all had to leave Spain by August 31st.
Thank you Larry Gonick and "The Cartoon History Of The Universe, Volume
III".

Pat

  #7  
Old May 18th 04, 10:06 AM
OM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 18 May 2004 02:04:15 -0500, Pat Flannery
wrote:

In 1502, the Islamic population of Spain got the same deal. The reason
Columbus had to depart from the minor port of Palos, rather than one of
Spain's major ports was that all the other ports were clogged with
departing Jews, who all had to leave Spain by August 31st.


....So, if Columbus had left for the New World in 1485, would the
Americas have become the New Israel, then? :-)

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr
  #8  
Old May 18th 04, 01:50 PM
David Higgins
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Pat Flannery wrote:
Thank you Larry Gonick and "The Cartoon History Of The Universe, Volume
III".


And a wonderful resource that is, too....

  #9  
Old May 18th 04, 05:46 PM
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



OM wrote:

...So, if Columbus had left for the New World in 1485, would the
Americas have become the New Israel, then? :-)


Actually, some Jews went on the voyage: http://www.jbuff.com/c100903.htm
including his translator...maybe he was looking for the Lost Tribes?
(Cut to scene of Mel Brooks from "Blazing Saddles" as Yiddish-speaking
Indian chief.)
In fact, there's speculation that Columbus himself was
Jewish....although "Christopher" seems like an odd name for someone
who's Jewish....

Pat

  #10  
Old May 18th 04, 05:56 PM
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



David Higgins wrote:



Pat Flannery wrote:

Thank you Larry Gonick and "The Cartoon History Of The Universe,
Volume III".



And a wonderful resource that is, too....



Can you imagine how many hours in took him to get to where he is at in
it by now?
It's up to 950 pages at the end of Vol. III, averaging about 6 panels
per page; or around 5,700 panels total!
I sure wish they'd give all the Junior High School kids copies of it-
it's a ball to read.

Pat

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The New NASA Mission Has Been Grossly Mischaracterized. Dan Hanson Policy 25 January 26th 04 08:42 PM
Selected Restricted NASA Videotapes Michael Ravnitzky Space Station 5 January 16th 04 05:28 PM
NASA Celebrates Educational Benefits of Earth Science Week Ron Baalke Science 0 October 10th 03 04:14 PM
Lost in Space: NASA Badly Needs a Mission That's Worth Dying For Scott M. Kozel Space Shuttle 16 September 10th 03 10:32 AM
NASA, Carnegie Mellon Inspire Future Robotics Engineers Ron Baalke Astronomy Misc 0 July 16th 03 10:04 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.