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  #1  
Old July 16th 04, 02:41 AM
David Sander
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Default MCS

Well, some of you might have noticed I haven't been here much of late.

fx: waves to newbies and recent regulars who might not know/remember me

It has been *ages* since I've had any serious involvement here, but work
keeps me away for the most part. Recently I've lurked for a bit (to get
an idea of who's around and who's moved on, and it's good net practise
since I'm coming back to a group almost like a newbie), and now I have a
teeny weeny bit of time on my hands, I'm going to stay for a little while...

I'm taking a very short sabbatical from MCS (and pretty much everything
else) to recover, recuperate and recharge (just a week or three). A lot
of effort, late nights, sacrifice, swearing and sweat, but I reckon with
everything to hand I'm back on deck and recovered from the hard drive
loss, bigger, better and stronger than before. I also have a very
interested party who is looking to be involved in a serious way, but
details of that won't be looked into until the end of August.

To celebrate the return to full-on "GO" mode, I've released the Cinema
Sample sequence as seen at TORCON last year.
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/surf...SHomepage.html
Go to Gallery, Movie Clips and enjoy (check out updates for more info).

I'll be releasing more clips shortly, including the Cinema Sequence in
MPG format (it's currently in Quicktime .mov format and Windows Media
Player .wmv format) so stay tuned.

Cheers everyone,


David
--
per aspera ad astra
  #2  
Old July 16th 04, 10:13 AM
OM
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On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:41:13 GMT, David Sander
wrote:

Well, some of you might have noticed I haven't been here much of late.

fx: waves to newbies and recent regulars who might not know/remember me


....Welcome back, you slimebag. Two questions come to mind:

1) Has Fred Ordway seen this? He was really enthusiastic at NARCON '01
when it was shown there that one night I attended.

2) Ok, spill. *How* is the 30-engine flame sequence done?

OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr
  #3  
Old July 16th 04, 03:01 PM
David Sander
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OM wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:41:13 GMT, David Sander
wrote:

Well, some of you might have noticed I haven't been here much of late.

fx: waves to newbies and recent regulars who might not know/remember me


...Welcome back, you slimebag.


Mmmmmm hugs and kisses to you too, sweetheart :-)

Two questions come to mind:

1) Has Fred Ordway seen this? He was really enthusiastic at NARCON '01
when it was shown there that one night I attended.


I've not communicated with him directly about this clip - he's a bit
reticent to open up when it comes to email - just the facts in as few
words as permissible. If that's his way then so be it, but it means I
can't read what his emotional reactions are to anything that me might
have encountered from any of this.

2) Ok, spill. *How* is the 30-engine flame sequence done?


Well, I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

....

Buggrit - you're gonna die anyway[1], so here goes:
3D model of the tail end of the ferry rocket. In the bells of the
engines - but rendered as a separate pass - 3D particle effects,
multiple layered with some layers blurred, some sharp, some faint, some
strong; and composited for flow (this is the unburnt fuel and fine
particles preceding All Hell. Added to that, billowing objects
texturemapped and displacement mapped using a fractally based procedural
shader, with the objects also keyframed from small to large and teardrop
shaped. Added to *that* is a practical pyrotechnic shot in real time and
inverted, though the overall shot could certainly survive without this.

I use ElectricImage http://www.eitechnologygroup.com for my 3D, and rely
on shaders from third party suppliers like Konkeptoine
http://www.konkeptoine.com for some of the more freaky and downright
brilliant effects. Unlike a lot of CGI artists I recognize the
importance and value of using real items where possible, and keeping the
need for CGI to a comparative minimum. If I had the budget I might have
gone the way of Ron Howard in Apollo 13 and simply used a source of
pressurized vapour like a fire extinguisher on a large model to simulate
the blast of fuel and flame, but I would also have gone over it with
other CG effects as well, as I ended up doing anyway. The shot took me
two days to bash out, with another full day for rendering both 2D
compositing and 3D effects.


[1] One day ... and the good die young, so you've got a bit of a wait on
your hands, OM old son ;-P


David
--
per aspera ad astra
  #4  
Old July 16th 04, 04:25 PM
Scott Lowther
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David Sander wrote:

3D model of the tail end of the ferry rocket. In the bells of the
engines - but rendered as a separate pass - 3D particle effects,
multiple layered with some layers blurred, some sharp, some faint, some
strong; and composited for flow (this is the unburnt fuel and fine
particles preceding All Hell. Added to that, billowing objects
texturemapped and displacement mapped using a fractally based procedural
shader, with the objects also keyframed from small to large and teardrop
shaped. Added to *that* is a practical pyrotechnic shot in real time and
inverted, though the overall shot could certainly survive without this.

I use ElectricImage http://www.eitechnologygroup.com for my 3D, and rely
on shaders from third party suppliers like Konkeptoine
http://www.konkeptoine.com for some of the more freaky and downright
brilliant effects. Unlike a lot of CGI artists I recognize the
importance and value of using real items where possible, and keeping the
need for CGI to a comparative minimum. If I had the budget I might have
gone the way of Ron Howard in Apollo 13 and simply used a source of
pressurized vapour like a fire extinguisher on a large model to simulate
the blast of fuel and flame, but I would also have gone over it with
other CG effects as well, as I ended up doing anyway. The shot took me
two days to bash out, with another full day for rendering both 2D
compositing and 3D effects.


Translated for the rest of us:
"It's done with magic."

--
Scott Lowther, Engineer
Remove the obvious (capitalized) anti-spam
gibberish from the reply-to e-mail address
  #5  
Old July 16th 04, 07:10 PM
OM
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Default

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:01:26 GMT, David Sander
wrote:

3D model of the tail end of the ferry rocket. In the bells of the
engines - but rendered as a separate pass - 3D particle effects,
multiple layered with some layers blurred, some sharp, some faint, some
strong; and composited for flow (this is the unburnt fuel and fine
particles preceding All Hell. Added to that, billowing objects
texturemapped and displacement mapped using a fractally based procedural
shader, with the objects also keyframed from small to large and teardrop
shaped. Added to *that* is a practical pyrotechnic shot in real time and
inverted, though the overall shot could certainly survive without this.


....Ok, that confirmed my theory. I suspected you'd merged in a real
pyro, as I've yet to see any rendering engine that could produce
billows that realistic. Some of the people I've shown it to have
always went "damn! He probably melted that model just for that one
shot. Good thing he got it right the first time out!"

....One suggestion, tho: if you haven't already done it, you need to
include a sound suppression system scene. Which will require more
billowing steam clouds out the wazoo at launch, natch. Otherwise, your
colleagues here will no doubt ding you for that ommission :-)

I use ElectricImage http://www.eitechnologygroup.com for my 3D,


....I know. Which is why I can't ever get a 3DS port of the VBE from
you, dammit :-(

If I had the budget I might have
gone the way of Ron Howard in Apollo 13 and simply used a source of
pressurized vapour like a fire extinguisher on a large model to simulate
the blast of fuel and flame, but I would also have gone over it with
other CG effects as well, as I ended up doing anyway.


....That initial burst of fuel in "Apollo 13" always did bug me,
because that was the only thing that just didn't look like it did when
I remember watching those camera shots at launch. It was
red/orange/yellow billowing almost at point of ignition, and nowhere
do I recall something that looked more like something Derek Meddings
or Colin Cantwell would have done with freon cans through hoses. For
about a millisecton I was expecting to see them cut to Launch Control
and see Steve Zodiac with puppet strings at a console :-)


OM

--

"No ******* ever won a war by dying for | http://www.io.com/~o_m
his country. He won it by making the other | Sergeant-At-Arms
poor dumb ******* die for his country." | Human O-Ring Society

- General George S. Patton, Jr
  #6  
Old July 16th 04, 08:09 PM
David Sander
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OM wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:01:26 GMT, David Sander
wrote:

...Ok, that confirmed my theory. I suspected you'd merged in a real
pyro, as I've yet to see any rendering engine that could produce
billows that realistic.


Well, the real pyro stands out the most on the sides - the closest bit
to camera is almost pure 2D/3D fake. Like I said - the shot didn't
really need it, but I got lazy and left it in with a shrug and 'couldn't
hurt' type of muttering...

Some of the people I've shown it to have
always went "damn! He probably melted that model just for that one
shot. Good thing he got it right the first time out!"


:-)

...One suggestion, tho: if you haven't already done it, you need to
include a sound suppression system scene. Which will require more
billowing steam clouds out the wazoo at launch, natch. Otherwise, your
colleagues here will no doubt ding you for that ommission :-)


Oh yes - a shot already exists of water-based acoustic suppression
systems running from the LUT, so with the addition of a couple of other
shots, I should be okay there.

I use ElectricImage http://www.eitechnologygroup.com for my 3D,


...I know. Which is why I can't ever get a 3DS port of the VBE from
you, dammit :-(


Well, I *can* export .DXF, .OBJ and even .LWO with the version I have.
There's a new version just released (5.5 from the existing 5.0.5) which
I haven't got yet (pay day from day job isn't until August) which I
suspect may have a greater range of export formats supported.

...That initial burst of fuel in "Apollo 13" always did bug me,
because that was the only thing that just didn't look like it did when
I remember watching those camera shots at launch. It was
red/orange/yellow billowing almost at point of ignition, and nowhere
do I recall something that looked more like something Derek Meddings
or Colin Cantwell would have done with freon cans through hoses. For
about a millisecton I was expecting to see them cut to Launch Control
and see Steve Zodiac with puppet strings at a console :-)


I had a really good look at the F-1s, but it's important to remember
this is not an F-1 driven rocket. The ferry rocket (in MCS it's the
Saturn-I, and yes, there's a Saturn-II, III, IV, and V) has a giant
cluster of engines, each more or less similar in size to the engine that
sent the Redstone aloft in RL. Even then, it's not LOX and alcohol or
LOX and RP-1 - it's nitric acid and hydrazine, so there's all sorts of
differences (plus a little bit of artistic license as I haven't seen
everything I need to see from RL to make it bang on).

Either way, everyone who's seen it thus far have been satisfied that
it's suitably dramatic, effective and tells the story. For film making,
you can't ask for more than that in a response ;-)


David
--
per aspera ad astra
  #7  
Old July 16th 04, 08:18 PM
Chuck Stewart
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On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:09:50 +0000, David Sander wrote:

OM wrote:


On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:01:26 GMT, David Sander


I use ElectricImage http://www.eitechnologygroup.com for my 3D,


...I know. Which is why I can't ever get a 3DS port of the VBE from
you, dammit :-(


Well, I *can* export .DXF, .OBJ and even .LWO with the version I have.


Those can all be coverted to 3ds, with varying degrees of preservation
ofand material properties etc. etc.

Either way, everyone who's seen it thus far have been satisfied that
it's suitably dramatic, effective and tells the story. For film making,
you can't ask for more than that in a response ;-)


Damn straight! Only surly misanthropic curmudgeons would want
super-accurate uber-technical micro-details on top of that

David


--
Chuck Stewart
"Anime-style catgirls: Threat? Menace? Or just studying algebra?"

  #8  
Old July 17th 04, 07:50 AM
Peter Smith
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David Sander wrote...

the Cinema Sample sequence as seen at TORCON last year.
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/surf...SHomepage.html
Go to Gallery, Movie Clips and enjoy (check out updates for more info).


Oh wow David - fan freakin' tastic!

To see all that work come together so beautifully in that sequence was a
goosebump experience. You should have heard the folks going troppo as they
appeared on screen. Thanks so much for allowing us to be involved in such
a fabulous project. The cockpit shot was way worth the drama behind it.


Recharge your batteries and then knock'em dead. This baby is going to fly!

- Peter


  #9  
Old July 20th 04, 02:03 PM
David Sander
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Default

Chuck Stewart wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:09:50 +0000, David Sander wrote:

OM wrote:


On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:01:26 GMT, David Sander


I use ElectricImage http://www.eitechnologygroup.com for my 3D,


...I know. Which is why I can't ever get a 3DS port of the VBE from
you, dammit :-(


Let me be convinced you *deserve* it first... ;-P

Well, I *can* export .DXF, .OBJ and even .LWO with the version I have.


Those can all be coverted to 3ds, with varying degrees of preservation
ofand material properties etc. etc.


There's an app designed for use with EI called "Transporter", which is a
convert-anything-to-anything sort of thingy. It comes with EI 5.5
(AIUI), so as soon as the day job bucks descend, I'll be upgrading and
tooling up regardless.

Either way, everyone who's seen it thus far have been satisfied that
it's suitably dramatic, effective and tells the story. For film making,
you can't ask for more than that in a response ;-)


Damn straight! Only surly misanthropic curmudgeons would want
super-accurate uber-technical micro-details on top of that


Ah but there's the challenge - convincing those surly misanthropic
curmudgeons out there (and goodness knows there's a few in here too!)
that what they're seeing is real and so therefore above all such
tasteless, grubby pedantry...

:-)

BTW I've just uploaded *more* clips (had to do *something* for Apollo XI
35th anniversary).

Email's on the way, Chuck. Took me a while to get to reading stuff, and
your email floored me ;-)


David
--
per aspera ad astra
 




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