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Good arguments supporting reality of Global Warming



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 29th 10, 09:20 AM posted to sci.astro
stargene
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Posts: 43
Default Good arguments supporting reality of Global Warming

With Congress's recent clueless shelving of any legislation in
response to global
warming, I found the following synopsis of arguments in support of
climatologists'
warnings about the issue to be very clear and persuasive. This is an
article in the Skeptical Ensquirer, by Dr. David Morrison, the Senior
Scientist at the NASA Astrobiology Institute, at

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/disinf...lobal_warming/
  #2  
Old August 2nd 10, 05:39 PM posted to sci.astro
Antares 531
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Posts: 124
Default Good arguments supporting reality of Global Warming

On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 01:20:31 -0700 (PDT), stargene
wrote:

With Congress's recent clueless shelving of any legislation in
response to global
warming, I found the following synopsis of arguments in support of
climatologists'
warnings about the issue to be very clear and persuasive. This is an
article in the Skeptical Ensquirer, by Dr. David Morrison, the Senior
Scientist at the NASA Astrobiology Institute, at

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/disinf...lobal_warming/

Where is the argument? Who rationally thinks that global warming HAS
NOT been going on for the past 12,000 years, since the end of the last
period of glaciation. How long has it been since the Great Lakes
remained frozen over throughout the summer? How long has it been since
there was so much sea water removed and converted into polar ice that
the Bering Straight was a land bridge between what is now Russia and
Alaska? How long has it been since those Neanderthals could walk from
what is now France to Spain, across the Straight of Gibraltar without
getting their feet wet?

And, the really BIG question is, how much longer do we have before
this planet starts sinking back into the next period of glaciation? We
are overdue here, if this current cycle follows the same pattern that
previous cycles followed.
  #3  
Old August 2nd 10, 10:53 PM posted to sci.astro
Brad Guth[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,175
Default Good arguments supporting reality of Global Warming

On Aug 2, 9:39*am, Antares 531 wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 01:20:31 -0700 (PDT), stargene

wrote:
With Congress's recent clueless shelving of any legislation in
response to global
warming, I found the following synopsis of arguments in support of
climatologists'
warnings about the issue to be very clear and persuasive. *This is an
article in the Skeptical Ensquirer, by Dr. David Morrison, the Senior
Scientist at the NASA Astrobiology Institute, at


http://www.csicop.org/si/show/disinf...lobal_warming/


Where is the argument? Who rationally thinks that global warming HAS
NOT been going on for the past 12,000 years, since the end of the last
period of glaciation. How long has it been since the Great Lakes
remained frozen over throughout the summer? How long has it been since
there was so much sea water removed and converted into polar ice that
the Bering Straight was a land bridge between what is now Russia and
Alaska? How long has it been since those Neanderthals could walk from
what is now France to Spain, across the Straight of Gibraltar without
getting their feet wet?

And, the really BIG question is, how much longer do we have before
this planet starts sinking back into the next period of glaciation? We
are overdue here, if this current cycle follows the same pattern that
previous cycles followed.


As long as we hold onto our moon, there's never going to be another
ice age (not even any little dip).

~ BG
  #4  
Old August 2nd 10, 11:05 PM posted to sci.astro
Antares 531
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 124
Default Good arguments supporting reality of Global Warming

On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 14:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Brad Guth
wrote:

On Aug 2, 9:39*am, Antares 531 wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 01:20:31 -0700 (PDT), stargene

wrote:
With Congress's recent clueless shelving of any legislation in
response to global
warming, I found the following synopsis of arguments in support of
climatologists'
warnings about the issue to be very clear and persuasive. *This is an
article in the Skeptical Ensquirer, by Dr. David Morrison, the Senior
Scientist at the NASA Astrobiology Institute, at


http://www.csicop.org/si/show/disinf...lobal_warming/


Where is the argument? Who rationally thinks that global warming HAS
NOT been going on for the past 12,000 years, since the end of the last
period of glaciation. How long has it been since the Great Lakes
remained frozen over throughout the summer? How long has it been since
there was so much sea water removed and converted into polar ice that
the Bering Straight was a land bridge between what is now Russia and
Alaska? How long has it been since those Neanderthals could walk from
what is now France to Spain, across the Straight of Gibraltar without
getting their feet wet?

And, the really BIG question is, how much longer do we have before
this planet starts sinking back into the next period of glaciation? We
are overdue here, if this current cycle follows the same pattern that
previous cycles followed.


As long as we hold onto our moon, there's never going to be another
ice age (not even any little dip).

~ BG

Brad, are you implying that, in the past, our moon left this planet
each time a prolonged period of glaciation began, then came back to
warm things up about 100,000 years later? The periodic recurrence of
periods of glaciation followed by interglacial warm periods has
happened before. This whole cycle usually takes about 115,000 years.
  #5  
Old August 2nd 10, 11:42 PM posted to sci.astro
Androcles[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 63
Default Good arguments supporting reality of Global Warming


"Antares 531" wrote in message
...
| On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 01:20:31 -0700 (PDT), stargene
| wrote:
|
| With Congress's recent clueless shelving of any legislation in
| response to global
| warming, I found the following synopsis of arguments in support of
| climatologists'
| warnings about the issue to be very clear and persuasive. This is an
| article in the Skeptical Ensquirer, by Dr. David Morrison, the Senior
| Scientist at the NASA Astrobiology Institute, at
|
| http://www.csicop.org/si/show/disinf...lobal_warming/
| Where is the argument? Who rationally thinks that global warming HAS
| NOT been going on for the past 12,000 years, since the end of the last
| period of glaciation. How long has it been since the Great Lakes
| remained frozen over throughout the summer? How long has it been since
| there was so much sea water removed and converted into polar ice that
| the Bering Straight was a land bridge between what is now Russia and
| Alaska? How long has it been since those Neanderthals could walk from
| what is now France to Spain, across the Straight of Gibraltar without
| getting their feet wet?

Errr... check your geography. The Straight of Gibraltar lies between
Spain and Morocco. The Pyrenees separate France from Spain. Ask
the Tour-de-France competitors, they know all about mountain climbing.
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to refer to the North Sea.
Fishing trawlers working the area have dredged up large amounts of moor
peat, remains of mammoth and rhinoceros, and occasionally Paleolithic
hunting artefacts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank


| And, the really BIG question is, how much longer do we have before
| this planet starts sinking back into the next period of glaciation? We
| are overdue here, if this current cycle follows the same pattern that
| previous cycles followed.
|

  #6  
Old August 3rd 10, 12:03 AM posted to sci.astro
Antares 531
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 124
Default Good arguments supporting reality of Global Warming

On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:42:03 +0100, "Androcles"
wrote:


"Antares 531" wrote in message
.. .
| On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 01:20:31 -0700 (PDT), stargene
| wrote:
|
| With Congress's recent clueless shelving of any legislation in
| response to global
| warming, I found the following synopsis of arguments in support of
| climatologists'
| warnings about the issue to be very clear and persuasive. This is an
| article in the Skeptical Ensquirer, by Dr. David Morrison, the Senior
| Scientist at the NASA Astrobiology Institute, at
|
| http://www.csicop.org/si/show/disinf...lobal_warming/
| Where is the argument? Who rationally thinks that global warming HAS
| NOT been going on for the past 12,000 years, since the end of the last
| period of glaciation. How long has it been since the Great Lakes
| remained frozen over throughout the summer? How long has it been since
| there was so much sea water removed and converted into polar ice that
| the Bering Straight was a land bridge between what is now Russia and
| Alaska? How long has it been since those Neanderthals could walk from
| what is now France to Spain, across the Straight of Gibraltar without
| getting their feet wet?

Errr... check your geography. The Straight of Gibraltar lies between
Spain and Morocco. The Pyrenees separate France from Spain. Ask
the Tour-de-France competitors, they know all about mountain climbing.
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to refer to the North Sea.
Fishing trawlers working the area have dredged up large amounts of moor
peat, remains of mammoth and rhinoceros, and occasionally Paleolithic
hunting artefacts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank

My error. I should have said, "between Spain and Morocco" but got
things mixed up a bit. Sorry.

| And, the really BIG question is, how much longer do we have before
| this planet starts sinking back into the next period of glaciation? We
| are overdue here, if this current cycle follows the same pattern that
| previous cycles followed.
|

  #7  
Old August 3rd 10, 02:13 AM posted to sci.astro
Androcles[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 63
Default Good arguments supporting reality of Global Warming


"Antares 531" wrote in message
...
| On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:42:03 +0100, "Androcles"
| wrote:
|
|
| "Antares 531" wrote in message
| .. .
| | On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 01:20:31 -0700 (PDT), stargene
| | wrote:
| |
| | With Congress's recent clueless shelving of any legislation in
| | response to global
| | warming, I found the following synopsis of arguments in support of
| | climatologists'
| | warnings about the issue to be very clear and persuasive. This is an
| | article in the Skeptical Ensquirer, by Dr. David Morrison, the Senior
| | Scientist at the NASA Astrobiology Institute, at
| |
| | http://www.csicop.org/si/show/disinf...lobal_warming/
| | Where is the argument? Who rationally thinks that global warming HAS
| | NOT been going on for the past 12,000 years, since the end of the last
| | period of glaciation. How long has it been since the Great Lakes
| | remained frozen over throughout the summer? How long has it been since
| | there was so much sea water removed and converted into polar ice that
| | the Bering Straight was a land bridge between what is now Russia and
| | Alaska? How long has it been since those Neanderthals could walk from
| | what is now France to Spain, across the Straight of Gibraltar without
| | getting their feet wet?
|
| Errr... check your geography. The Straight of Gibraltar lies between
| Spain and Morocco. The Pyrenees separate France from Spain. Ask
| the Tour-de-France competitors, they know all about mountain climbing.
| Perhaps it would be more appropriate to refer to the North Sea.
| Fishing trawlers working the area have dredged up large amounts of moor
| peat, remains of mammoth and rhinoceros, and occasionally Paleolithic
| hunting artefacts.
|
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank
|
| My error. I should have said, "between Spain and Morocco" but got
| things mixed up a bit. Sorry.

No big deal, but the Straight of Gibraltar is about 3000 feet deep. The
Dogger Bank is about 50 feet below sea level. Not much chance of
finding a land bridge from Africa to Europe, it would have been done
by dogga or walking the long way around via Turkey. Not that any of
this changes global warming HAS been going on for the past 12,000
years, since the end of the last period of glaciation. With that I fully
concur. Blaming it on CO2 is just plain silly and doesn't matter anyway.
Coastal cities are rebuilt inside a century by simply tearing down old
buildings and putting up new ones. Nobody cares that the Sahara is
currently a desert, people have moved away long ago. The Earth is
a dynamic system that will take care of itself, with or without humanity.
We have no control over it and Nature does not bend to our wishful
thinking. Still, it is fun jerking the bozos around, so do carry on.



|
| | And, the really BIG question is, how much longer do we have before
| | this planet starts sinking back into the next period of glaciation? We
| | are overdue here, if this current cycle follows the same pattern that
| | previous cycles followed.
| |
|

  #8  
Old August 3rd 10, 03:18 AM posted to sci.astro
Antares 531
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 124
Default Good arguments supporting reality of Global Warming

On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 02:13:39 +0100, "Androcles"
wrote:


"Antares 531" wrote in message
.. .
| On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:42:03 +0100, "Androcles"
| wrote:
|
|
| "Antares 531" wrote in message
| .. .
| | On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 01:20:31 -0700 (PDT), stargene
| | wrote:
| |
| | With Congress's recent clueless shelving of any legislation in
| | response to global
| | warming, I found the following synopsis of arguments in support of
| | climatologists'
| | warnings about the issue to be very clear and persuasive. This is an
| | article in the Skeptical Ensquirer, by Dr. David Morrison, the Senior
| | Scientist at the NASA Astrobiology Institute, at
| |
| | http://www.csicop.org/si/show/disinf...lobal_warming/
| | Where is the argument? Who rationally thinks that global warming HAS
| | NOT been going on for the past 12,000 years, since the end of the last
| | period of glaciation. How long has it been since the Great Lakes
| | remained frozen over throughout the summer? How long has it been since
| | there was so much sea water removed and converted into polar ice that
| | the Bering Straight was a land bridge between what is now Russia and
| | Alaska? How long has it been since those Neanderthals could walk from
| | what is now France to Spain, across the Straight of Gibraltar without
| | getting their feet wet?
|
| Errr... check your geography. The Straight of Gibraltar lies between
| Spain and Morocco. The Pyrenees separate France from Spain. Ask
| the Tour-de-France competitors, they know all about mountain climbing.
| Perhaps it would be more appropriate to refer to the North Sea.
| Fishing trawlers working the area have dredged up large amounts of moor
| peat, remains of mammoth and rhinoceros, and occasionally Paleolithic
| hunting artefacts.
|
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank
|
| My error. I should have said, "between Spain and Morocco" but got
| things mixed up a bit. Sorry.

No big deal, but the Straight of Gibraltar is about 3000 feet deep. The
Dogger Bank is about 50 feet below sea level. Not much chance of
finding a land bridge from Africa to Europe, it would have been done
by dogga or walking the long way around via Turkey. Not that any of
this changes global warming HAS been going on for the past 12,000
years, since the end of the last period of glaciation. With that I fully
concur. Blaming it on CO2 is just plain silly and doesn't matter anyway.
Coastal cities are rebuilt inside a century by simply tearing down old
buildings and putting up new ones. Nobody cares that the Sahara is
currently a desert, people have moved away long ago. The Earth is
a dynamic system that will take care of itself, with or without humanity.
We have no control over it and Nature does not bend to our wishful
thinking. Still, it is fun jerking the bozos around, so do carry on.

True, but it hasn't always been this way. When the ocean level got to
the point that water began to flow over the Straight of Gibraltar
bridge it washed a lot of it away.

I have no data on this, but I wonder if the warming oceans are
producing much more plant life, and this increase in plant life may be
sequestering more CO2 than our industrial pollution is releasing.


|
| | And, the really BIG question is, how much longer do we have before
| | this planet starts sinking back into the next period of glaciation? We
| | are overdue here, if this current cycle follows the same pattern that
| | previous cycles followed.
| |
|

  #9  
Old August 3rd 10, 07:45 AM posted to sci.astro
Androcles[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 63
Default Good arguments supporting reality of Global Warming


"Antares 531" wrote in message
...
| On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 02:13:39 +0100, "Androcles"
| wrote:
|
|
| "Antares 531" wrote in message
| .. .
| | On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:42:03 +0100, "Androcles"
| | wrote:
| |
| |
| | "Antares 531" wrote in message
| | .. .
| | | On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 01:20:31 -0700 (PDT), stargene
| | | wrote:
| | |
| | | With Congress's recent clueless shelving of any legislation in
| | | response to global
| | | warming, I found the following synopsis of arguments in support of
| | | climatologists'
| | | warnings about the issue to be very clear and persuasive. This is
an
| | | article in the Skeptical Ensquirer, by Dr. David Morrison, the
Senior
| | | Scientist at the NASA Astrobiology Institute, at
| | |
| | | http://www.csicop.org/si/show/disinf...lobal_warming/
| | | Where is the argument? Who rationally thinks that global warming HAS
| | | NOT been going on for the past 12,000 years, since the end of the
last
| | | period of glaciation. How long has it been since the Great Lakes
| | | remained frozen over throughout the summer? How long has it been
since
| | | there was so much sea water removed and converted into polar ice
that
| | | the Bering Straight was a land bridge between what is now Russia and
| | | Alaska? How long has it been since those Neanderthals could walk
from
| | | what is now France to Spain, across the Straight of Gibraltar
without
| | | getting their feet wet?
| |
| | Errr... check your geography. The Straight of Gibraltar lies between
| | Spain and Morocco. The Pyrenees separate France from Spain. Ask
| | the Tour-de-France competitors, they know all about mountain climbing.
| | Perhaps it would be more appropriate to refer to the North Sea.
| | Fishing trawlers working the area have dredged up large amounts of
moor
| | peat, remains of mammoth and rhinoceros, and occasionally Paleolithic
| | hunting artefacts.
| |
| | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank
| |
| | My error. I should have said, "between Spain and Morocco" but got
| | things mixed up a bit. Sorry.
|
| No big deal, but the Straight of Gibraltar is about 3000 feet deep. The
| Dogger Bank is about 50 feet below sea level. Not much chance of
| finding a land bridge from Africa to Europe, it would have been done
| by dogga or walking the long way around via Turkey. Not that any of
| this changes global warming HAS been going on for the past 12,000
| years, since the end of the last period of glaciation. With that I fully
| concur. Blaming it on CO2 is just plain silly and doesn't matter anyway.
| Coastal cities are rebuilt inside a century by simply tearing down old
| buildings and putting up new ones. Nobody cares that the Sahara is
| currently a desert, people have moved away long ago. The Earth is
| a dynamic system that will take care of itself, with or without humanity.
| We have no control over it and Nature does not bend to our wishful
| thinking. Still, it is fun jerking the bozos around, so do carry on.
|
| True, but it hasn't always been this way. When the ocean level got to
| the point that water began to flow over the Straight of Gibraltar
| bridge it washed a lot of it away.

It doesn't work like that. If the world began to freeze up so that snow
fell on Antarctica and in the North over Canada and Siberia so that
the ice sheet reach as far south as Youngstown, Ohio (which it once
did) to a height of two miles, then we can estimate the volume of
ice by area x height. This volume, spread over the oceans of the
world, would yield a drop in sea level of 300 to 800 feet (deliberately
wide range chosen). Because the depth of the Gibraltar Straight is
3000 feet, much deeper than the 800 feet at the height of the glaciation,
there was never a bridge to begin with in the 3,000,000 years of
man's existence on this planet.
http://www.cyburbia.org/gallery/data...ntal-drift.gif
There may have a bridge 65 million years ago, but not 12,000 years ago.

|
| I have no data on this, but I wonder if the warming oceans are
| producing much more plant life, and this increase in plant life may be
| sequestering more CO2 than our industrial pollution is releasing.

Most of the world's oxygen comes from algae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae
It'll chew up the CO2 as fast as it is produced. Earth's temperature is
regulated by clouds, not by CO2.
Negative feedback:
1) Sun heats ocean.
2) Ocean evaporates and forms clouds.
3) Clouds reflect sunlight into space, reduce evaporation.
If you doubt it, feel the sunlight on your skin when a cloud
obscures the sun.
4) Less cloud forms, more heat is absorbed, more cloud forms,
less heat is absorbed; Earth's temperature remains constant.
If it gets warmer, it will cool. If it gets cooler, it will warm.

Positive feedback:
5) Snow falls on land and polar ice fields.
6) Snow/ice reflects sunlight into space, reduces heat absorption.
Water absorbs sunlight, increases energy intake. Ice reflects
sunlight, reduces energy intake. If you doubt it, take a swim
in the Gulf of Mexico and another in the Arctic Ocean.
7) Earth cools as it radiates heat to space, more snow falls,
more sunlight is reflected, result is an Ice Age. The colder
it is, the colder it will get. The warmer it is, the warmer
it will get.

Changing the balance:
http://androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co...erSunlight.jpg
8) Earth's orbit is elliptical.
9) Sunlight obeys the inverse square law.
10) Earth is tilted.
11) More sunlight reaches Earth at perihelion than at aphelion.
12) Earth's Great White Spot, Antarctica, reflects sunlight at
aphelion (Southern summer).
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/earth_1_apollo17.gif
Result, positive feedback predominates, Ice Age.
13) Earth precesses. Earth's Great White Spot reflects sunlight
at perihelion (Northern summer). But Earth's Great White Spot
has no sunlight to reflect and the Northern Wet Spot (the Arctic
Ocean) has even more sunlight to melt its ice cap than it had
when it faced the Sun at aphelion. Water absorbs far more heat
than ice. Result: more sunlight absorbed, positive feedback,
natural global warming.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...precession.gif

14) But it is offset by more cloud, see negative feedback above.
Overall result - a small change in mean temperature as a function
of precession.
15) CO2 levels rise as a consequence of a warmer planet, not as
the cause. Why? Because with more heat we have more thunderstorms
and more lightning and more forest fires, plants grow faster in a
richer CO2 atmosphere and the world gets greener instead of whiter.
16) Far more strange gases are vented to atmosphere by
volcanoes than by man. See "Carbon cycle".


It's been that way for at least 3 billion years; homo neanderthalensis
is alive and well and arrogant enough to say he causes it. He is,
of course, an idiot who thinks he can "combat" the quite natural
temperature cycle of a couple of degrees. Nature doesn't care if he
builds cities along the coast or birds build nests in trees, the rule is
ADAPT OR DIE.

So when your coastal cities are flooded as they will be and you have
no control over that, move inland or go and live in Greenland. You
can fight for control of land, homo neanderthalensis is a territorial
animal and the fittest survive. Nuke the opposition and pass your own
genes on.

|
|
| |
| | | And, the really BIG question is, how much longer do we have before
| | | this planet starts sinking back into the next period of glaciation?
We
| | | are overdue here, if this current cycle follows the same pattern
that
| | | previous cycles followed.
| | |
| |

 




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