#11
|
|||
|
|||
L.I.F.E.
Alain Fournier wrote:
On Apr/29/2017 at 3:37 AM, Fred J. McCall wrote : JF Mezei wrote: We know what rovers were designed to find, and of those capabilities what was and wasn't found. But we can't know about stuff the rovers were not designed to detect. And we don't really have to care. Meteorites from Mars have made it here. We aren't all dead, so it's a virtual certainty that any Martian microbes that might exist die under Earth conditions. No it isn't. If there are some microbes travelling from Mars to Earth they don't necessarily die under Earth conditions. What we can say is that, if they do travel, they don't wreak havoc on Earth, for some definition of 'wreak havoc'. It is possible that current conditions on Earth are the outcome from havoc wreaked by Martian microbes. Well, pretty much all God's chillens got common DNA, so it's unlikely that anything from a separate evolutionary chain has made it here and survived to have an impact. Regardless, if it did, then it's obviously nothing for us to worry about anyway. And we're talking about fears (by some) of CURRENTLY EXTANT Martian bacteria. That stuff, given the environment on Mars for the last several billion years, is likely to be radiation tolerant and oxygen intolerant. -- "Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
L.I.F.E.
|
#13
|
|||
|
|||
L.I.F.E.
|
#14
|
|||
|
|||
L.I.F.E.
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2017-04-29 03:37, Fred J. McCall wrote: One the basis of even a rudimentary understanding of biology. Has it ever occured to you that our understanding of "biology" is based on how life exists on Earth's conditions? Has it ever occurred to you that extremophile conditions don't create magic? What if there is totally different type of life which can exists on Mars conditions? How can you declare that it could not have any impact with our biology? What if a herd of unicorns come through and **** magic pixie dust all over everything? How can you think anything adapted to Martian conditions with no common biology and no evolution against anything remotely like a human host could possibly affect our biology? And if your immune system doesn't detect this thing that is eating your body, it won't fight it. Without a billion years or so of coevolution, why would this magic 'thing' of yours ever develop the ability to be "eating your body"? Just because the odds are low doesn't mean you can categorically state they don't exist. How close to zero do they have to be before you agree there is no essential difference between them and zero? Odds are low, yet whenever we launch probes, we still make damned sure the probes are as sterile as we can make them. That's because we don't want to contaminate our tests at the other end, you nitwit. how do you think a microbe with no common heredity with us is going to "cause havok"? Magic, perhaps? If your body does not consider it to be a microbe, that entity can do whatever it wants without detection. Or perhaps the body does detect it, but white globules are food to that entity instead of poison and makes it grow even faster. Microbes don't 'want' to do things. They do things their evolution has programmed them to do. What Martian host is similar enough to an Earth human for a Martian bacteria to develop the ability to infect it? The rules of physics may be common across planets, but that doesn't mean that all organisms have to be made form same components and behave the same way. So if it's made from different components, why the hell would it 'infect' carbon based life? Makes no sense. Think about the conditions on Mars for the last several billion years and the direction that that will drive any life and then ask yourself if that stuff could survive under Earth conditions or could somehow infect Earth life. The answer is that it almost certainly could not. Or the reverse: it exists on Mars, but if brought to Earth, without adverse conditions will multiply at accelerated rate. So magic, then. You can't make statements that stuff we don't know about is perfectly safe to humans (or planet earth). So we can only ever send one way toasters, since we will never be omniscient and therefore there will always be stuff "we don't know about". Look, biology (of whatever extremes) follows similar rules. Biology isn't just "reach into your ass and pull out an answer that appeals to you". Life evolves to create energy and reproduce in whatever conditions it evolves in. Think about what that means for any potential 'Martian microbes'. Now stick those things in an Earth environment. How well do you think they're going to do and why would you ever think they could 'infect' an Earth animal? Consider Zebra Muscles. Wrecking water systems for towns in great lakes/St-Lawrence river. Brought in by ships form sea and they spread rapidly in freshwater and block water intakes, cover ship hulls (slowing them considerably etc). You're comparing apples and, well, zebra mussels and drawing conclusions based on your ignorance about zebra mussels. Your claims about how they have been spread are incorrect. Please provide a citation for your claim that they "cover ship hulls (slowing them considerably)". You'd think a species designed for salt water would have died in fresh water instead of multiplying rapidly. The Zebra Mussel (note spelling of 'mussel') is a freshwater species of mussel, you twit. It lives in lakes, river estuaries, and canal systems. They spread to North America from Russian ships that picked them up in their ballast systems from their native range and discharged them into the Great Lakes. It is small surprise that a species designed for fresh water flourishes in fresh water. -- "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
L.I.F.E.
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2017-04-29 08:03, Fred J. McCall wrote: Well, pretty much all God's chillens got common DNA, We know that lawyers and rats have common DNA, and that humans share huge amount of DNA with other mammals. But what about insects? Over 60% shared (identical) DNA and it all IS DNA with the same sorts of chemicals involved. What about those bacteria which live in volcanic sulfur outflows at bottom of ocean? Hell, we have 50% identical DNA with BANANAS. And again, it all IS DNA. It's all made out of the same four nucleobases: cytosine, guanine, adenine, and thymine. It doesn't matter what it is. If it's alive it has DNA and that DNA is made out of the same four things across all Earth life, regardless of how much identical DNA there might be. about fears (by some) of CURRENTLY EXTANT Martian bacteria. Consider seeds. They can lay dormant for years, and add water and you get them to grow. Have you consider that there could be a similar type of situation on Mars ? Yes, consider seeds. They evolved under the same conditions, have identically the same four nucleobases making up their DNA as all other life here, etc. None of that is going to be true for 'Mars microbes' unless you think they can 'lay dormant' for three billion years or so. That stuff, given the environment on Mars for the last several billion years, is likely to be radiation tolerant and oxygen intolerant. Pure speculation on your part. You can't draw conclusions about stuff you haven't discovered yet. (or which may or may not exist). The world must be so MAGICAL for you. I prefer to use science, thanks. Drawing conclusions about stuff you haven't discovered yet is what science does and how it works. Magic, on the other hand, can't draw a conclusion about anything, ever, because, well, MAGIC. Mars is more than likely sterile and offer zero problems. But "likely" doesn't mean you can claim there is no risk. For a 'more than likely' value consisting of a very large number of nines. -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
L.I.F.E.
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2017-04-29 23:10, Fred J. McCall wrote: What if a herd of unicorns come through and **** magic pixie dust all over everything? How can you think anything adapted to Martian conditions with no common biology and no evolution against anything remotely like a human host could possibly affect our biology? So a "thing" on Mars has evolved without salt. If it hasnt been exposed to salt, nobody knows what happens if it is. Of course we do. It won't do anything with salt, since there isn't any in its environment. So at worst it will ignore salt. Say this "thing" gets into your blood, finds out that it loves salt and start to metabolize any/all salt it can find and grows much faster. By what mechanism would it have come to 'love salt', since there isn't any in the environment it evolved in? You've been watching too much bad science fiction. Say this thing is a "reverse plant" when it eats O2 and Carbon and throws out CO2. It would go nuts in our forests and turn Earth into Mars by converting all plant life to CO2. Why would something like that develop in an environment with practically no free oxygen? Are you starting to see a trend here? Organisms don't develop metabolisms to use things that are not in their environment. You might as well postulate "What if we find unicorns that **** magic dust?" Besides, in case you weren't aware, WE are 'reverse plants', as are pretty much most animals above the unicellular level. I know this is mostly "fantasy". 'Most'? You're the master of understatement. It is ALL fantasy and not even good fantasy. But you are the one claiming there is absolutely no risk without being able to prove it. While you are the one claiming biology is not a science but rather is 'magical' and critters with magical uses for things that don't exist in the environment they evolved in will somehow (magically) evolve. There is evidence Mars usedto be very different. It is possible that some form of life was created and managed to evolve as fast as Mars morphed into its current state. (or lays dormant somewhere). Nothing is going to 'lie dormant' for several billion years. Again, there is no magic. So the risk is different from the moon which never had atmosphere or tempered weather. Why? You're postulating PFM on Mars. Why not on the Moon? -- "Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is only stupid." -- Heinrich Heine |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
L.I.F.E.
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2017-04-30 03:44, Fred J. McCall wrote: 'Most'? You're the master of understatement. It is ALL fantasy and not even good fantasy. You're the one making the claim your are certain there is no risk at all. No, I'm the one making the claim that there is so little risk that going nuts and quarantining Mars forever because it's somehow different than the Moon makes little sense. I was merely providing theoretical possibilities where something we don't know about, something we don't detect or fully understand might behave very differently in humans or once brought back to earth. Like I said; fantasy. If something is so 'foreign' that we can't detect it, then it's so foreign that it won't interact with us at all. Even extremophile bacteria here on Earth do not infect human beings. Why do you think that is? Hint: Evolved in environments far from those containing humans. Just because something doesn't react with NaCl on Mars because there isn't any doesn't mean that its chemical composition won't react to NaCl if in contact with it. Actually, yeah, it pretty much does. (using salt as example, could be any component - however salt is a big one because if some organism starts to break NaCl from ocean water in large amounts, we might end up with acidic oceans, or pure chlorine in atmposphere or whatever. Uh, you realize that salt in solution is ALREADY broken up into sodium and chlorine ions, yeah? So there's nothing to dissociate, yeah? And even though the odds of it happening are next to nil, the potential damage is so high that it cannot be dismissed. Of course it can. Only a total scientific illiterate could believe there is any threat of damage from something like this. Or course, Mars missions have other dangers. Consider a standard cold virus on board which mutates due to radiation, comes back to earth and causes Sars 2. But this would be more likely detectable (since crew would have had plenty of time to get infected and show symptoms well before arriving at earth). Consider ... MAGIC! That's pretty much what you're proposing here. -- "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
L.I.F.E.
Le 29/04/2017 à 14:53, Jeff Findley a écrit :
In article , says... Le 28/04/2017 à 08:55, JF Mezei a écrit : Mars environment makes it unlikely there is life forms as we know them. Surface environment is very different, yes. But underground there is abundant water, rests of volcanic activity providing possible nutrients, pressure is higher, temperatures are higher than the surface, and the environment could provide for numerous life forms. Theory and conjecture, not fact. Jeff Methane is unstable in the surface of Mars. Something must be producing it, surely some joker that has hidden methane under the surface to lead NASA into error. The fossils formations recognized by biologists? Hallucinations produced by smoking pot and writing scientific papers at the same time. Magnetite of biological purity found in mars meteorites? Pure contamination of course. The circadian rhythms found in Viking data? Poppycok, as McCall loves to say. The rock facing the Viking lander becomes more green in spring and the spectra of the rock is similar to the spectra of lichens? [put some stupid remark here] NASA acknowledges that organic matter exists in the surface of mars? [just put one sentence. No arguments of course] Since NASA doesn't look for life, only for geology, and nobody expects to find anything, all hints are ignored. What is annoying is the absolute zero degree of this discussion. "Theory and conjecture, not fact" That's all you have to say? The peer reviewed papers? Nothing. What is the point of discussing if you just throw sentences around whithout any argumentation? |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
L.I.F.E.
jacob navia wrote:
Le 29/04/2017 à 14:53, Jeff Findley a écrit : In article , says... Le 28/04/2017 à 08:55, JF Mezei a écrit : Mars environment makes it unlikely there is life forms as we know them. Surface environment is very different, yes. But underground there is abundant water, rests of volcanic activity providing possible nutrients, pressure is higher, temperatures are higher than the surface, and the environment could provide for numerous life forms. Theory and conjecture, not fact. Methane is unstable in the surface of Mars. Something must be producing it, surely some joker that has hidden methane under the surface to lead NASA into error. There are any number of ways that methane could be detected without something 'producing' it as we go. You should read up on this. The fossils formations recognized by biologists? The 'looks sort of like a microbe produced formation' recognized by ONE biologist? No fossils. Hallucinations produced by smoking pot and writing scientific papers at the same time. More like the hallucinations produced by smoking pot and reading a scientific paper at the same time. You should stop that. Magnetite of biological purity found in mars meteorites? I'm not even sure what the **** this is supposed to mean. Are you claiming that magnetite is ONLY produced by life? Really??? Pure contamination of course. No, more like pure ignorance. The circadian rhythms found in Viking data? Poppycok, as McCall loves to say. I don't particularly love to say it. I wish you'd provide fewer opportunities where it is the only sensible response. The rock facing the Viking lander becomes more green in spring and the spectra of the rock is similar to the spectra of lichens? [put some stupid remark here] I'll leave that to you, since you already put a stupid remark in front of it. NASA acknowledges that organic matter exists in the surface of mars? [just put one sentence. No arguments of course] Cite? A description of this 'organic matter'? Since NASA doesn't look for life, only for geology, and nobody expects to find anything, all hints are ignored. False. What is annoying is the absolute zero degree of this discussion. Perhaps you should educate yourself, then? "Theory and conjecture, not fact" That's all you have to say? The peer reviewed papers? Nothing. What is the point of discussing if you just throw sentences around whithout any argumentation? What is the point of discussing if you just spew loony? -- "Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is only stupid." -- Heinrich Heine |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|