A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Space Science » Policy
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize? - and abouta lander to search for water on the Moon.



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old December 6th 09, 02:47 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics
Robert Clark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,150
Default What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize? - and abouta lander to search for water on the Moon.

In this post I wondered what would be the hardest part of winning the
Google lunar X-prize:

Newsgroups: sci.astro, sci.physics, sci.space.policy
From: Robert Clark
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:51:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.a...929cb160?hl=en

Some have argued the hardest part would be just getting the funding
to complete the mission.
Just saw this mentioned on Habitablezone.com:

A Wet Moon Is Hot Once Again
By Keith Cowing on November 15, 2009 8:01 AM 16 Comments
"Keith's 14 Nov note: Word has it that NASA JSC has a stealth "Project
M" underway whereby it would place a lander on the Moon in 1,000 days
- once approved.
"Meanwhile, word has it that NASA is now looking to match Google's $30
million pledge to the Google Lunar X Prize - and that Google may up
their ante as well. Conversations are being held directly between X
Prize and the 9th floor. IPP is not in the loop. Stay tuned."
http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/20...moon-is-h.html

Raising the prize amount to $60 million would go a long way to
developing interest for a team to make the attempt. At this amount you
might have teams also have one or more landers to land specifically in
those locations shown to have high water amounts.


Bob Clark
  #2  
Old December 6th 09, 05:34 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics
BradGuth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21,544
Default What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize? - and abouta lander to search for water on the Moon.

On Dec 6, 5:47*am, Robert Clark wrote:
*In this post I wondered what would be the hardest part of winning the
Google lunar X-prize:

Newsgroups: sci.astro, sci.physics, sci.space.policy
From: Robert Clark
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:51:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize?http://groups.google.com/group/sci.a...929cb160?hl=en

*Some have argued the hardest part would be just getting the funding
to complete the mission.
*Just saw this mentioned on Habitablezone.com:

A Wet Moon Is Hot Once Again
By Keith Cowing on November 15, 2009 8:01 AM 16 Comments
"Keith's 14 Nov note: Word has it that NASA JSC has a stealth "Project
M" underway whereby it would place a lander on the Moon in 1,000 days
- once approved.
"Meanwhile, word has it that NASA is now looking to match Google's $30
million pledge to the Google Lunar X Prize - and that Google may up
their ante as well. Conversations are being held directly between X
Prize and the 9th floor. IPP is not in the loop. Stay tuned."http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2009/11/a-wet-moon-is-h.html

*Raising the prize amount to $60 million would go a long way to
developing interest for a team to make the attempt. At this amount you
might have teams also have one or more landers to land specifically in
those locations shown to have high water amounts.

* *Bob Clark


With robust, rad-hard and thermally tolerant micro and even nano
technology doable as is, and systems energy efficiency that's a
thousand fold better off than anything Apollo had to work with,
there's no good reason(s) to deploy anything much over 10 kg onto that
physically dark, crystal dry, highly reactive via gamma, X-rays and UV
and otherwise dusty and electrostatic charged surface.

In fact, as little as a one kg item with its camera and a few other
science instrument feedback capability, as such shouldn't be a
problem. Excluding the fly-by-rocket hard-lander portion that would
be separated at perhaps 100 meters above that extremely dusty
surface, whereas this micro/nano rover or robo-bug like technology
might not even sink out of sight.

In order to get the 10 kg version plus its deorbit maximum 90 kg
portion, as safely there (a total of 100 kg), as such should not
demand all that significant of a primary rocket to begin with.

Either China or India have relatively cheap rockets as is, that should
more than accomplish this task of getting 100 kg into an elliptical
lunar orbit of perhaps as low as 25 km, and otherwise I believe Russia
once had hundreds of surplus ones that were even cheaper.

So, your $60M prize suggestion should be sufficient, although $100M
might be easier than you think because of what commercial and national
sponsors should be capable of. A 10:1 return on the private
investment would obviously insure many attempts at this prize.

Of course our NASA is going to do everything possible to block/prevent
any such Google moon X-prize efforts.

~ BG
  #3  
Old December 7th 09, 07:10 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics
gb[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,501
Default What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize? - and abouta lander to search for water on the Moon.

On Dec 6, 2:47*pm, Robert Clark wrote:
*In this post I wondered what would be the hardest part of winning the
Google lunar X-prize:

Newsgroups: sci.astro, sci.physics, sci.space.policy
From: Robert Clark
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:51:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize?http://groups.google.com/group/sci.a...929cb160?hl=en

*Some have argued the hardest part would be just getting the funding
to complete the mission.
*Just saw this mentioned on Habitablezone.com:

A Wet Moon Is Hot Once Again
By Keith Cowing on November 15, 2009 8:01 AM 16 Comments
"Keith's 14 Nov note: Word has it that NASA JSC has a stealth "Project
M" underway whereby it would place a lander on the Moon in 1,000 days
- once approved.
"Meanwhile, word has it that NASA is now looking to match Google's $30
million pledge to the Google Lunar X Prize - and that Google may up
their ante as well. Conversations are being held directly between X
Prize and the 9th floor. IPP is not in the loop. Stay tuned."http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2009/11/a-wet-moon-is-h.html

*Raising the prize amount to $60 million would go a long way to
developing interest for a team to make the attempt. At this amount you
might have teams also have one or more landers to land specifically in
those locations shown to have high water amounts.

* *Bob Clark


Google sets Streetview cameras over fences around the world. Their
3D scanning of streets takes place from much higher position than
people's heads, so one does see things he would not in person in
a street. From space they would really dominate that aspect such
big government freaks feel they need such powers and cameras up
there in space. What is the future, currently 1000 US spy satellites,
then 100 thousand spy satellites later this century?

Send Google up there to space and see how many spyware a company
as that would build. They are terror.
  #4  
Old December 7th 09, 02:29 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics
William Mook[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,840
Default What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize? - and abouta lander to search for water on the Moon.

The hardest part by far is propulsion. Everything else is easy by
comparison - but only by comparison. Nothing about space travel is
easy.

I tend to favor a radical departure in this area - namely MEMs engines
(Micro-electromechanical system engines) Here, the same technology
that is used to make integrated circuits the size of microbes, is used
to make mechanical devices the size of microbes. The easiest way to
think about how this is accomplished is to consider a microscope.
With a microscope its easy to see a microbe. With the same optics as
a microscope, you can also project an image the size of a microbe.
With that ability, and a healthy knowledge of photo-chemical
reactions, you can see how its possible to etch things on a tiny tiny
scale.

The other cool part is that fifty years of micro-circuit design has
given us a tremendous capability to convert any micro-machine design
into large scale production at very low cost. Micro machines are
already in common use as air bag accelerometers, and actuators.
Already in common use in HDTV plasma screens where millions of tiny
nozzles glow in varying colors changing hundreds of times per second.
Already in common use in ink jet printheads printing millions and
millions of dots in seconds creating photographs on demand.

Change the ink in an inkjet printer to rocket fuel, change the nozzles
in a plasma screen to rocket nozzles, and you have a propulsive skin!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzXwctPXT4c

Which can be attached to conventional tankage and feed systems to
create a stage stack that is quite capable.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20053585/M...space-Overview

The cool part is that propulsive skins once developed can be mass
produced at very low cost. The other cool part is that these skins
will have 1,000 to 1 thrust to weight ratios and produce 3.6 tons per
square foot.

Cryogenic propellants - using hydrogen and oxygen - have higher
structural fraction than non-cryogenic propellants.

In a SSTO configuration;

H2/O2: 455 sec Isp, 3% structural fraction 87% propellant
10% payload
H2O2/RP1: 375 sec Isp, 2% structural fraction 92% propellant 6%
payload

A lunar landing system requires a total delta vee of 15 km/sec -
divided into 3 stages, that's 5 km/sec each, which using the rocket
equation gives the sizing of the stack needed to reach the moon.

  #5  
Old December 7th 09, 03:36 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics
gb[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,501
Default What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize? - and abouta lander to search for water on the Moon.

On Dec 6, 11:10*pm, gb wrote:
On Dec 6, 2:47*pm, Robert Clark wrote:



*In this post I wondered what would be the hardest part of winning the
Google lunar X-prize:


Newsgroups: sci.astro, sci.physics, sci.space.policy
From: Robert Clark
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:51:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize?http://groups.google.com/group/sci.a...929cb160?hl=en


*Some have argued the hardest part would be just getting the funding
to complete the mission.
*Just saw this mentioned on Habitablezone.com:


A Wet Moon Is Hot Once Again
By Keith Cowing on November 15, 2009 8:01 AM 16 Comments
"Keith's 14 Nov note: Word has it that NASA JSC has a stealth "Project
M" underway whereby it would place a lander on the Moon in 1,000 days
- once approved.
"Meanwhile, word has it that NASA is now looking to match Google's $30
million pledge to the Google Lunar X Prize - and that Google may up
their ante as well. Conversations are being held directly between X
Prize and the 9th floor. IPP is not in the loop. Stay tuned."http://www..nasawatch.com/archives/2009/11/a-wet-moon-is-h.html


*Raising the prize amount to $60 million would go a long way to
developing interest for a team to make the attempt. At this amount you
might have teams also have one or more landers to land specifically in
those locations shown to have high water amounts.


* *Bob Clark


Google sets Streetview cameras over fences around the world. Their
3D scanning of streets takes place from much higher position than
people's heads, so one does see things he would not in person in
a street. From space they would really dominate that aspect such
big government freaks feel they need such powers and cameras up
there in space. What is the future, currently 1000 US spy satellites,
then 100 thousand spy satellites later this century?

Send Google up there to space and see how many spyware a company
as that would build. They are terror.


Google is a first violation of human rights company.
  #6  
Old December 8th 09, 01:20 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics
[email protected][_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize? - and abouta lander to search for water on the Moon.

On Dec 7, 12:47*am, Robert Clark wrote:
*In this post I wondered what would be the hardest part of winning the
Google lunar X-prize:

Newsgroups: sci.astro, sci.physics, sci.space.policy
From: Robert Clark
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:51:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize?http://groups.google.com/group/sci.a...929cb160?hl=en

*Some have argued the hardest part would be just getting the funding
to complete the mission.
*Just saw this mentioned on Habitablezone.com:

A Wet Moon Is Hot Once Again
By Keith Cowing on November 15, 2009 8:01 AM 16 Comments
"Keith's 14 Nov note: Word has it that NASA JSC has a stealth "Project
M" underway whereby it would place a lander on the Moon in 1,000 days
- once approved.
"Meanwhile, word has it that NASA is now looking to match Google's $30
million pledge to the Google Lunar X Prize - and that Google may up
their ante as well. Conversations are being held directly between X
Prize and the 9th floor. IPP is not in the loop. Stay tuned."http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2009/11/a-wet-moon-is-h.html

*Raising the prize amount to $60 million would go a long way to
developing interest for a team to make the attempt. At this amount you
might have teams also have one or more landers to land specifically in
those locations shown to have high water amounts.

* *Bob Clark


Hi, I was part of a half-hearted attempt at the Google lunar X prize
that fizzled out. Details on:
http://sssfmoon.proboards.com/index.cgi?
There were various things that were difficult and ended up blocking
the attempt. These included:
1. Getting together a critical mass of interested people in one place.
2. Convincing potential financiers that winning the money was not the
main object of the exercise.
3. Intellectual disagreements over lander design - everyone seemed to
have their own design.
4. Export limitations on components - this was a major hassle for any
team from a country that does not have access to US and European
hardware. In addition, my country has bans on some of the most
appropriate fuels for the lunar lander because of environmental
concerns.
5. Propulsion.
6. Launch cost.
The main problem with propulsion units was that they had to have a
very high thrust to weight ratio. A proposal from the Russians to use
one of their existing engines had a low ratio, low enough to
jeopardise the integrity of the mission. Similarly, we investigated a
privately owned engine in the US, but again the thrust to weight ratio
would have put the mission in jeopardy.
Launch vehicles that were of an appropriate cost were either very
unreliable, nearly unobtainable, or of very small payload - usually
two of the three.
  #7  
Old December 9th 09, 06:34 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.astro,sci.physics
BradGuth
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21,544
Default What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize? - and abouta lander to search for water on the Moon.

On Dec 7, 4:20*pm, "
wrote:
On Dec 7, 12:47*am, Robert Clark wrote:



*In this post I wondered what would be the hardest part of winning the
Google lunar X-prize:


Newsgroups: sci.astro, sci.physics, sci.space.policy
From: Robert Clark
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:51:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize?http://groups.google.com/group/sci.a...929cb160?hl=en


*Some have argued the hardest part would be just getting the funding
to complete the mission.
*Just saw this mentioned on Habitablezone.com:


A Wet Moon Is Hot Once Again
By Keith Cowing on November 15, 2009 8:01 AM 16 Comments
"Keith's 14 Nov note: Word has it that NASA JSC has a stealth "Project
M" underway whereby it would place a lander on the Moon in 1,000 days
- once approved.
"Meanwhile, word has it that NASA is now looking to match Google's $30
million pledge to the Google Lunar X Prize - and that Google may up
their ante as well. Conversations are being held directly between X
Prize and the 9th floor. IPP is not in the loop. Stay tuned."http://www..nasawatch.com/archives/2009/11/a-wet-moon-is-h.html


*Raising the prize amount to $60 million would go a long way to
developing interest for a team to make the attempt. At this amount you
might have teams also have one or more landers to land specifically in
those locations shown to have high water amounts.


* *Bob Clark


Hi, I was part of a half-hearted attempt at the Google lunar X prize
that fizzled out. Details on:http://sssfmoon.proboards.com/index.cgi?
There were various things that were difficult and ended up blocking
the attempt. These included:
1. Getting together a critical mass of interested people in one place.
2. Convincing potential financiers that winning the money was not the
main object of the exercise.
3. Intellectual disagreements over lander design - everyone seemed to
have their own design.
4. Export limitations on components - this was a major hassle for any
team from a country that does not have access to US and European
hardware. In addition, my country has bans on some of the most
appropriate fuels for the lunar lander because of environmental
concerns.
5. Propulsion.
6. Launch cost.
The main problem with propulsion units was that they had to have a
very high thrust to weight ratio. A proposal from the Russians to use
one of their existing engines had a low ratio, low enough to
jeopardise the integrity of the mission. Similarly, we investigated a
privately owned engine in the US, but again the thrust to weight ratio
would have put the mission in jeopardy.
Launch vehicles that were of an appropriate cost were either very
unreliable, nearly unobtainable, or of very small payload - usually
two of the three.


Public funded R&D simply isn't public. Even our NASA can't figure out
how to affordably and safely get another lander onto our physically
dark moon. Even 99.9% of the LRO mission is need-to-know or
nondisclosure rated.

~ BG
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Detecting the HDTV for the Google Lunar X Prize, applications tothe SETI search. Robert Clark Astronomy Misc 1 June 30th 09 10:10 PM
What's the hardest part of the Google Lunar X prize? Robert Clark Astronomy Misc 7 June 18th 09 07:26 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.