Far Left Group Opposes a Return to the Moon

In , on 12/30/03
at 07:09 AM, (ed kyle) said:


There were profit-seeking fur traders in the American West
even before Lewis and Clark. A second, entirely privately-funded
expedition swiftly headed to the Pacific Northwest soon after Lewis and
Clark returned. These fellows found a shorter route across the
continent, established trading relations with numerous, previously
unknown, tribes, built trading sites, etc. They were way out in front
of the U.S. Government.

(They probably would have succeeded had it not been for some sneaky
Canaidans in their midst who sold the company's Colombia River interests
to a competing Canadian trading
company when they learned about the War of 1812.)

Are you under the impression that Lewis and Clark were the first to the
Pacific Northwest? If so, Thomas Jefferson would disagree with you :-) It
was his reading of the journal from the first explorer which inspired the
Lewis and Clark expedition. As a hint, check out the name of a certain
large northward flowing river that flows into the Arctic Ocean (an ocean
also visited by this explorer). And nobody remembers Alcock and Brown's
1919 flight across the Atlantic either!

--
Chris M. Hall, Associate Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan

Specialization is for insects

Hop David wrote:

Mark R. Whittington wrote:
For your outrage:

http://www.tompaine.com/images/dynamic/427.pdf


Well, I think a return to the moon may be a waste of money.

If it's another Flags and Footprints exercise, it won't be a
sustainable return to space.

Better to encourage the private sector. Maybe the free market
can do the same thing for space flight that it did for airplanes
and computers.

Airplanes got off to a good free market start by the Wright Brothers
who beat out a government financed effort by Langley. The development
of the airplane has been an intertwined government and private thing
ever since. War has had a greater effect on the development of the
airplane than commerce, at least in the early decades.

Computers were successfully developed as a government project.
Micro-computers (PCs) were mainly a free market development at
least in their proliferation through the entire world. Main Frame
computers were a combination of free market and government
development.



I don't know if I'm liberal or conservative. But I regard the
above as one of my conservative opinions. Discourage big government
and encourage good, healthy capitalism.

--
Hop David
http://clowder.net/hop/index.html

Encourage the private sector to do what? The private sector, at least
most of it, wants to get its money back and doesn't usually want to wait

to long to get it.

My belief is that it is time for the government to get its act together
and provide the background exploration and technology development
that can show a path to profit that the private sector will be willing
to
follow. Initially it is most likely to be selling things to the
government
for their projects.

And: Back to the Moon!

In this respect Zubrin is wrong.

Mike Walsh

Christopher wrote:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:32:36 -0700, Hop David
wrote:



Mark R. Whittington wrote:
For your outrage:

http://www.tompaine.com/images/dynamic/427.pdf


Well, I think a return to the moon may be a waste of money.

If it's another Flags and Footprints exercise, it won't be a
sustainable return to space.

Better to encourage the private sector. Maybe the free market
can do the same thing for space flight that it did for airplanes
and computers.

Do you really want to see the Micro$oft flag on the Moon?

Sure, why not?

Mike Walsh

(ed kyle) wrote in message . com...
Hop David wrote in message ...
Mark R. Whittington wrote:
For your outrage:

http://www.tompaine.com/images/dynamic/427.pdf


Well, I think a return to the moon may be a waste of money.
... Better to encourage the private sector. Maybe the free market
can do the same thing for space flight that it did for airplanes
and computers.

...
It has been nearly 35 years since the U.S. Government put
people on the Moon. The only reason I can imagine that no
commercial interests have followed - not even by the less
expensive robotic route - is because there is no money to
be made on what is, after all, a radiation-blasted wasteland
of dust and rocks in endless vacuum.


Following up with another thought: Except for the (mostly
geosynchronous) communication satellite market and arguably for
a few commericial "spy" imaging satellites (arguably because
governments are likely their biggest customer), there has been
little commercial exploitation beyond the earth's atmosphere.
Space is still mostly a government effort that is mosly about
national prestige. The space launch vehicles that exist today
were all developed to serve governments.

Why else would the U.S. have recently developed two brand
new launch systems when one alone could clearly handle the
manifest? Why is Russia developing the new Angara launcher
when it already has the infrastructure in place to launch
Ukrainian-built Zenit? Why else would Japan and India have
their own launcher programs, in a world awash with launch
overcapacity, and why would Brazil and North Korea try to
develop launchers?Why does Alaska have a new, completely
redundant (and now unused) space launch pad? Why does China
have three space launch centers when it only orbits 5-7
missions per year? And why on earth does a country like
China feel compelled to devote resources toward development
of what will be the world's most powerful launch vehicle?

Think about it. National prestige is really the only force
that could possibly drive humans back to the Moon during our
lifetimes. Prestige may or may not be enough to propel the
U.S. again, but it is probably enough for China.

- Ed Kyle

"Dr. O" dr.o@xxxxx wrote in message ...
Besides tourism, I haven't yet heard a convincing case for private
investment in space activity.

Some twisted branch of entertainment industry ? If and when space
tourism picks up, im almost certain that entertainment industry will
jump to grab a piece if not a significant chunk of the pie.
With some creative thinking, with involvement of entertainment
industry, it would be also possible to push ahead of tourism
developments.
In short, get John Woo to direct your moon landing and positive
cashflow sources become obvious.

-kert

"Christopher" wrote in message
...

Do you really want to see the Micro$oft flag on the Moon?

To expand on the one liners others have used to answer this.

Do you feel that the Micro$oft that most of us now use is
worse than the computer availability to the public in the 70s?
I'm not defending MS, or claiming that there are no better
suppliers for their product, just asking if MS is worse than
what was available 3 decades ago.

Do you feel that a Delta Airlines monopoly would be worse
than what we have now if seats were $2,000.00 to LEO and
$10,000.00 to the moon?

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:58:15 GMT, "johnhare"
wrote:


"Christopher" wrote in message
...

Do you really want to see the Micro$oft flag on the Moon?

To expand on the one liners others have used to answer this.

Do you feel that the Micro$oft that most of us now use is
worse than the computer availability to the public in the 70s?
I'm not defending MS, or claiming that there are no better
suppliers for their product, just asking if MS is worse than
what was available 3 decades ago.

Yes, and

Do you feel that a Delta Airlines monopoly would be worse
than what we have now if seats were $2,000.00 to LEO and
$10,000.00 to the moon?

Yes.


Christopher
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Kites rise highest against
the wind - not with it."
Winston Churchill

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:51:03 GMT, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
wrote:


"Christopher" wrote in message
...

Do you really want to see the Micro$oft flag on the Moon?

Why not?

Gate$ has no right to screw up the moon.





Christopher
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Kites rise highest against
the wind - not with it."
Winston Churchill

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:22:48 GMT, Michael Walsh
wrote:



Christopher wrote:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:32:36 -0700, Hop David
wrote:



Mark R. Whittington wrote:
For your outrage:

http://www.tompaine.com/images/dynamic/427.pdf


Well, I think a return to the moon may be a waste of money.

If it's another Flags and Footprints exercise, it won't be a
sustainable return to space.

Better to encourage the private sector. Maybe the free market
can do the same thing for space flight that it did for airplanes
and computers.

Do you really want to see the Micro$oft flag on the Moon?

Sure, why not?

Would you put your life in the hands of a MS piece of software?


Christopher
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Kites rise highest against
the wind - not with it."
Winston Churchill

Christopher wrote:

Would you put your life in the hands of a MS piece of
software?

Are you quite certain that you never have?

Jim Davis