ET Insulation

Quick question... Why lift the insulation on takeoff? As the ET is next
to the gantry, why not have a two part cover that hinges on either side
of the ET. Masses of insulation to keep the ET cold. Then a minute or so
before ignition, move the halves out of the way.

No ice, and no insulation to fall off...

H

Hamie ) writes:
Quick question... Why lift the insulation on takeoff? As the ET is next
to the gantry, why not have a two part cover that hinges on either side
of the ET. Masses of insulation to keep the ET cold. Then a minute or so
before ignition, move the halves out of the way.

No ice, and no insulation to fall off...

And, no protection from the heat of flying boost phase....

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

Would not work. Could not make it snug enough and thus ice would already be
there. Florida is very humid!

Besides, it gets quite hot during lift off and boiling lox or hydrogen is
not what you really want at that time.

Maybe build a giant dehumidifier as well? :-)

Brian

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"Hamie" wrote in message
...

Quick question... Why lift the insulation on takeoff? As the ET is next
to the gantry, why not have a two part cover that hinges on either side
of the ET. Masses of insulation to keep the ET cold. Then a minute or so
before ignition, move the halves out of the way.

No ice, and no insulation to fall off...

H

Brian Gaff wrote:

Would not work. Could not make it snug enough and thus ice would already be
there. Florida is very humid!

Besides, it gets quite hot during lift off and boiling lox or hydrogen is
not what you really want at that time.

Maybe build a giant dehumidifier as well? :-)

Brian


Of course, NASA management isn't open to, nor listening for,
any outside ideas, especially from sci.space.shuttle, but
my thoughts would be to put an inflatable mylar balloon
around the ET sized to allow a few feet of space between
it an a naked ET, pump the balloon full of dry nitrogen
at a few psi of positive pressure to keep it away from the
ET skin for the most part, and attach the balloon to the
launch pad such that upon launch the ET just rips through
it.

JazzMan

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"JazzMan" wrote in message
...
Brian Gaff wrote:

Would not work. Could not make it snug enough and thus ice would already
be
there. Florida is very humid!

Besides, it gets quite hot during lift off and boiling lox or hydrogen is
not what you really want at that time.

Maybe build a giant dehumidifier as well? :-)

Brian


Of course, NASA management isn't open to, nor listening for,
any outside ideas, especially from sci.space.shuttle, but
my thoughts would be to put an inflatable mylar balloon
around the ET sized to allow a few feet of space between
it an a naked ET, pump the balloon full of dry nitrogen
at a few psi of positive pressure to keep it away from the
ET skin for the most part, and attach the balloon to the
launch pad such that upon launch the ET just rips through
it.

JazzMan

OK, Mr. Outside Ideas, how do you keep the LH2 and LOX from boiling off
during the boost phase as the skin of the ET heats up from aerodynamic
friction? Your idea would look just like the Challenger at about the same
point in the flight where it was lost. Why does everyone look at this
problem so one-dimensionally?

Mike Dennis wrote:

"JazzMan" wrote in message
...
Brian Gaff wrote:

Would not work. Could not make it snug enough and thus ice would already
be
there. Florida is very humid!

Besides, it gets quite hot during lift off and boiling lox or hydrogen is
not what you really want at that time.

Maybe build a giant dehumidifier as well? :-)

Brian


Of course, NASA management isn't open to, nor listening for,
any outside ideas, especially from sci.space.shuttle, but
my thoughts would be to put an inflatable mylar balloon
around the ET sized to allow a few feet of space between
it an a naked ET, pump the balloon full of dry nitrogen
at a few psi of positive pressure to keep it away from the
ET skin for the most part, and attach the balloon to the
launch pad such that upon launch the ET just rips through
it.

JazzMan

OK, Mr. Outside Ideas, how do you keep the LH2 and LOX from boiling off
during the boost phase as the skin of the ET heats up from aerodynamic
friction? Your idea would look just like the Challenger at about the same
point in the flight where it was lost. Why does everyone look at this
problem so one-dimensionally?

Maybe because NASA obviously hasn't got a handle on it?
They spent two years and a good fraction of a billion dollars
on the problem and still have the problem. The shuttle is
grounded indefinitely, or maybe you haven't noticed that yet?

And everything I've seen on this group so far indicates that
the primary purpose of the insulation was to keep ice from
forming.

And, I never said that I was the be all and end all of ideas.
Hell, I'm not really smart compared to a lot of folks here, but
I'm not so dumb as to not see that NASA is spinning its wheels. Maybe
it's time to set up an outside group like Kelly's Skunk Works to
work the problem? Because a problem there is, and current approaches
don't seem to be getting it done.

JazzMan
--
************************************************** ********
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
************************************************** ********
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
************************************************** ********

"JazzMan" wrote in message
...
Mike Dennis wrote:

"JazzMan" wrote in message
...
Brian Gaff wrote:

Would not work. Could not make it snug enough and thus ice would
already
be
there. Florida is very humid!

Besides, it gets quite hot during lift off and boiling lox or hydrogen
is
not what you really want at that time.

Maybe build a giant dehumidifier as well? :-)

Brian


Of course, NASA management isn't open to, nor listening for,
any outside ideas, especially from sci.space.shuttle, but
my thoughts would be to put an inflatable mylar balloon
around the ET sized to allow a few feet of space between
it an a naked ET, pump the balloon full of dry nitrogen
at a few psi of positive pressure to keep it away from the
ET skin for the most part, and attach the balloon to the
launch pad such that upon launch the ET just rips through
it.

JazzMan

OK, Mr. Outside Ideas, how do you keep the LH2 and LOX from boiling off
during the boost phase as the skin of the ET heats up from aerodynamic
friction? Your idea would look just like the Challenger at about the
same
point in the flight where it was lost. Why does everyone look at this
problem so one-dimensionally?

Maybe because NASA obviously hasn't got a handle on it?
They spent two years and a good fraction of a billion dollars
on the problem and still have the problem. The shuttle is
grounded indefinitely, or maybe you haven't noticed that yet?

And everything I've seen on this group so far indicates that
the primary purpose of the insulation was to keep ice from
forming.

And, I never said that I was the be all and end all of ideas.
Hell, I'm not really smart compared to a lot of folks here, but
I'm not so dumb as to not see that NASA is spinning its wheels. Maybe
it's time to set up an outside group like Kelly's Skunk Works to
work the problem? Because a problem there is, and current approaches
don't seem to be getting it done.

JazzMan

That Skunk Works idea is pretty good. I've thought that was needed for a
long time. I don't like the idea of "Tiger Teams". While OK for some
things, it's better to have a cohesive group that can retain historical
knowledge for long-lived operational systems. IMHO, a Tiger Team is better
suited to solving quick one-off problems.

JazzMan wrote in :

And everything I've seen on this group so far indicates that
the primary purpose of the insulation was to keep ice from
forming.

If so, that means you haven't been paying attention. I've said repeatedly
that one purpose of the insulation - in fact, one of the *original*
purposes of the insulation - was to protect the tank from ascent heating.
And rk posted a link to a 1976 NASA study that said the same thing.

And, I never said that I was the be all and end all of ideas.
Hell, I'm not really smart compared to a lot of folks here, but
I'm not so dumb as to not see that NASA is spinning its wheels.

That also shows you're not paying attention. The areas of the tank that
NASA "fixed" showed huge reductions in foam-shedding. But the large number
of additional cameras available on this launch revealed that other areas of
the tank also have foam-shedding problems, and now those areas need to be
addressed.

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"JazzMan" wrote in message
...

Maybe because NASA obviously hasn't got a handle on it?

Obviously?

Let's see. Less damage than any other flight it looks like.

The only significant piece of foam that did come lose was one that they
didn't raelly modify to begin with and will on future flights.

To me it sounds like they got pretty dang close to their goal.


They spent two years and a good fraction of a billion dollars
on the problem and still have the problem. The shuttle is
grounded indefinitely, or maybe you haven't noticed that yet?

No I hadn't, since they've tentatively announced a March launch date. Or
maybe you haven't noticed that yet.


And everything I've seen on this group so far indicates that
the primary purpose of the insulation was to keep ice from
forming.

Then quite honestly, pay attention. This question has come up MANY times
and ascent heating has been pointed out many times.


And, I never said that I was the be all and end all of ideas.
Hell, I'm not really smart compared to a lot of folks here, but
I'm not so dumb as to not see that NASA is spinning its wheels.

I wouldn't go to Vegas with those odds.

Maybe
it's time to set up an outside group like Kelly's Skunk Works to
work the problem? Because a problem there is, and current approaches
don't seem to be getting it done.


Again, the facts would seem to disagree with your opinion.


JazzMan
--
************************************************** ********
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
************************************************** ********
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
************************************************** ********

JazzMan ) writes:
Mike Dennis wrote:

"JazzMan" wrote in message
...
Brian Gaff wrote:

Would not work. Could not make it snug enough and thus ice would
already be there. Florida is very humid!

Besides, it gets quite hot during lift off and boiling lox or hydrogen
is not what you really want at that time.

Maybe build a giant dehumidifier as well? :-)

Brian

Of course, NASA management isn't open to, nor listening for,
any outside ideas, especially from sci.space.shuttle, but
my thoughts would be to put an inflatable mylar balloon
around the ET sized to allow a few feet of space between
it an a naked ET, pump the balloon full of dry nitrogen
at a few psi of positive pressure to keep it away from the
ET skin for the most part, and attach the balloon to the
launch pad such that upon launch the ET just rips through
it.

JazzMan

OK, Mr. Outside Ideas, how do you keep the LH2 and LOX from boiling off
during the boost phase as the skin of the ET heats up from aerodynamic
friction? Your idea would look just like the Challenger at about the same
point in the flight where it was lost. Why does everyone look at this
problem so one-dimensionally?

Maybe because NASA obviously hasn't got a handle on it?

No proof offered ? Claim fails.

They spent two years and a good fraction of a billion dollars
on the problem and still have the problem. The shuttle is
grounded indefinitely, or maybe you haven't noticed that yet?

Indeed. Please post the technical schematics of your proposed fix
to the ET ramp problem.

None posted ? Claim fails.

And everything I've seen on this group so far indicates that
the primary purpose of the insulation was to keep ice from
forming.

Than, you are illiterate, as well.

And, I never said that I was the be all and end all of ideas.

Thats very good, since you are far from that.

Hell, I'm not really smart compared to a lot of folks here, but
I'm not so dumb as to not see that NASA is spinning its wheels.

Hardly. NASA's use of newer technologies to see the shuttle's effects,
was an excellent choice, and was operated brilliantly.

Maybe it's time to set up an outside group like Kelly's Skunk Works to
work the problem? Because a problem there is, and current approaches
don't seem to be getting it done.

Operative technical illiterate's word: " seems ".

" Idiots ! Jon ? " Lewis Black, " The Daily Show. "

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.