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  #1  
Old September 23rd 11, 10:38 PM posted to sci.space.policy
jacob navia[_5_]
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http://www.space.com/13060-nasa-huma...ture-path.html

I watched Apollo astronauts Neil Armstrong and Eugene Cernan, in
space.com today and it was sad.

So sad it made me cry.

Amstrong's hands were trembling when he spoke softly. And I remembered
those days of 69 when everything seemed possible and he proved it
before all mankind as we watched him step into another planet.

I remembered my grandfather, the same that told me that he paid
big money in his youth to go to a show to see a machine heavier than
the air take off and fly over the rooftops.

And he could see, before he died, that a man stepped into a machine
heavier than the air and flew to the moon. And all that came in
a second, when I saw Amstrong and Cernan with their hair all white
(as mine) plead for returning to space, keeping on that dream.

But nothing goes any more in this era of greed.

Space is just not profitable.


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  #2  
Old September 24th 11, 01:20 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Val Kraut
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Space is just not profitable.

Neither is welfare but it seems that's where the folks like Obama would
rather spend the nation's money. Somehow though the space pioneers faded
from public view after Apollo when their presence and support may have
brought us something more meaningful than the Space Shuttle and ISS that
became bottomless money pits without inspiring most of the population or
delivering on any of their promises.


  #3  
Old September 24th 11, 06:21 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Pat Flannery
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On 9/23/2011 1:38 PM, jacob navia wrote:
But nothing goes any more in this era of greed.

Space is just not profitable.


We wouldn't have built may airplanes either if you couldn't:
A. Use them to aid in killing people.
B. Make a buck off of them.
Now if Buzz had been there, things would have been different.
He would have danced with most of the members of congress, then brought
in his pet chimpanzee, "Moonwatcher" who would present each of the
congress members with a small model of Phobos with a tiny black monolith
on it.
After that, they would know what to do.
After the chimp's bullet riddled and lifeless body was dragged from the
chamber and Buzz was safely in the custody of the police, Neil's
testimony would seem like the height of rationality and most sage
advice. I suggested this outside-the-box strategy to NASA last week,
but the hidebound fools would have none of it.

Pat



  #4  
Old September 24th 11, 07:06 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Jonathan
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Posts: 278
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"jacob navia" wrote in message
...


And all that came in
a second, when I saw Amstrong and Cernan with their hair all white
(as mine) plead for returning to space, keeping on that dream.



"Dreams are well but Waking's better,
If One wake at Morn
If One wake at Midnight better
Dreaming of the Dawn"


There are two ways of looking at the space program.
The way it is, or what it could become.

It could provide the long term solution to the global
energy future. And end wars over oil.
It could become the primary solution to climate change.
It could bring prosperity and opportunity to billions in
the third world, and end world hunger.

It could transform humanity from barbaric, to civilized
once and for all.

The largest industry in the world is food, followed closely
by energy. And a quarter of the food produced spoils
for a lack of energy. All it takes is to figure out how in
the world the space program can become directly connected
to those industries and needs

Space Solar Power is no pipe-dream, colonies on Mars
and mining asteroids are pipe-dreams which provide little
hope for a better future. Nothing approaching the possibilities
of an entirely clean energy source which can /travel/ to the
ends of the Earth, reaching all those people currently
left behind, where conventional power will never reach.

Because of the ability of Space Solar Power to reach
anywhere including thinly populated areas, SSP would be
every bit as big an advance as AC power was over DC.

For billions it would be the difference between electricity
and the Internet, or nothing, and remaining in stone age
poverty.

All that, and our space program badly needs new inspiration
and direction.

You may feel sad at the current state of affairs, I see a
space program which only just now has a rare and
magnificent opportunity to Save the World from itself
yet again.

I truly believe that day will soon come true.

These guys feel the same way, and they represent
the best and brightest in their field.

Space Energy Inc.
http://spaceenergy.com/


"But how shall finished Creatures
A function fresh obtain?
Old Nicodemus' Phantom
Confronting us again!"



s










  #5  
Old September 24th 11, 08:43 AM posted to sci.space.policy
[email protected] |
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On Sep 23, 5:20*pm, "Val Kraut" wrote:
Space is just not profitable.


*Neither is welfare but it seems that's where the folks like Obama would
rather spend the nation's money. Somehow though the space pioneers faded
from public view after Apollo when their presence and support may have
brought us something more meaningful than the Space Shuttle and ISS that
became bottomless money pits without inspiring most of the population or
delivering on any of their promises.


And his replacement will only be concerned about the welfare
of the CEOs, the very rich, members of corporate boards, and the more
special
member of the American Chamber of Commerce. Space exploration
isn't on that list either except as pork sausage with lots of cereal
fillers.

For some it is greed and others it is the result of being too low
on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

It is true there are always poor but there aren't always Depressions
and we may only be at 1929 as it stands. Or at the very best
sometime in the 1930s prior to the second dip. Perhaps the
next grand old party can reintroduce the policies of pre-war Dixie?
Or maybe "they" can retread the "final solution" or perhaps go
with the slogan "we only tax the poor and the working classes
so there will be fewer of them" or perhaps "the rich are worth
it so they deserve lower taxes".............oops they
already use that one or nearly so.

So the free market won't explore space? Maybe the great
state of Texas can do it with hot air balloons and faith based
propulsion systems.

I wonder if Mars has hydrocarbon deposits for exploitation?
Maybe we can get some global warming going on there?
Off to live in a rat hole on a rock in a near vacuum with the employer
controlling the air
supply. .................................................. Trig
  #6  
Old September 27th 11, 05:27 AM posted to sci.space.policy
William Mook[_2_]
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Posts: 3,836
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Check this out;

Ever wonder why we didn't have income taxes before 1913? Ever wonder
how government coped?

We didn't have income taxes before 1913 because before 1913 the USA
issued debt free currency as a sovereign state - and spent that money
into existence and then raised sufficient tax to keep the money in
circulation of stable value.

That's how Lincoln paid for the Civil War, and why the USA accumulated
so much wealth and grew so rapidly from the Civil War through 1913
despite millions of people coming to America during this period.

Lincoln's commitment to debt free currency is why Lincoln was
assassinated. The issuance of debt free currency to resolve an
artificially induced banking crisis is why Garfield was assassinated.
Imposing restrictions to keep US gold and silver from Alaska in the US
to support US currency is why McKinley was assassinated. A big
supporter of McKinley and US economic growth independently of European
influence, John Astor, was killed along with 600 other major
supporters of the "American Way" were given free passage on the maiden
voyage of the Titanic, by the major supporter of European banking
interests, JP Morgan, who bought the White Star line, paid for the
Titanic, and sold the company afterward. A few months after the death
of Astor and his associates, the Federal Reserve was made law.

Check out this chart of wages and productivity;

http://jkornacki.com/wp-content/uplo...real_wages.jpg

Productivity and wages decoupled in 1913. The decoupling accelerated
in 1963.

What happened on these dates?

In 1913 the USA created the Federal Reserve and IRS.

In 1963 JFK was assassinated and the perpetrators got precious metals
out of our currency and got into power and passed laws that restricted
liberties and free markets and created 'too big to fails' which is
another name for Fascism.

Why is that important?

Because after 1913 money=debt and debt bears interest which extracts
all the wealth out of an economy. After 1963 the government lost
all ability to operate independently of the Federal Reserve.

Federal Reserve:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...84887024293324

JFK Assassination:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAQ5mFkrlDs

JFK Jr. Death:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=284zz4Nl00g

FDR Assassination Attempt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnr7CxqxJdQ

The American Way:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgcdRCWEt4Q

What can we do?

Personal currency instead of world currency...

Return to our roots, with modern counterfeit proof electronic currency
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgcdRCWEt4Q

A peer to peer electronic currency:
http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Gift economy versus market economy...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy

How do you bring this about?

CORE PRODUCTIVE CAPACITY
(1) Self-replicating machine systems...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_machine

CORE TRANSPORT CAPABILITY
(2) Voitenko Compressor initiated microfusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voitenko_compressor

CORE MECHANICAL ENERGY CAPABILITY
(3) Zero-point energy extraction
http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html

Alright, so let's put this together.

THE POWER OF SELF REPLICATION:

A 23 micron diameter nano-robot made by reacting chemicals against a
chemically structured wafer masses 7.5 nano-grams. So, you need 133
billion of these devices to make 1 kilogram of material. How long
does it take to do this starting with one machine? Well if the
replication time takes 1 hour - you'll need;

1 hour * LN(133e9)/LN(2) = 36.956 hours ~ 37 hours!

Starting with 1 kg of these devices it will take

1 hour * LN(1000)/LN(2) = 9.965 hours ~ 10 hours!

to make a tonne.

Starting with 1 tonne of these devices it will take

1 hours * LN(7e9)/LN(2) = 32.704 hours ~ 33 hours!

to produce 1 tonne of these devices for every man woman and child on
the face of the planet.

Approximately 80 hours - less than four days - after completing the
very first machine.

PRACTICAL FUSION

Lithium-6 isotope of Lithium when combined with Deuterium isotope of
Hydrogen forms a powder with an average density of 0.82 grams per
cubic centimeter - when compressed with a Voitenko Compressor,
produces an aneutronic fusion reaction - that produces alpha
particles, which are EASILY deflected, moving at 11% light speed
(33,000 km/sec)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneutronic_fusion

Designs for these engines have been completed and tested. Disposable
chemical and electromagnetic compressors have been built using micro-
electro-mechanical systems (MEMS) aka wafer fab techniques at very low
cost and efficient paraboloid deflectors have been designed built and
tested.

With this sort of engine it is possible to fly across the solar system
in a matter of days at constant gee.

Consider a trip from Earth to Moon at constant gee. One where you
accelerate half way then flip over and slow half way to a gentle
landing, avoiding the problem of zero gee aboard ship.

Well if you do that with this fusion rocket it takes 3.6 hours each
way and consumes 0.75% of the total vehicle's weight to go out and
back. You reach a top speed of 62.7 km/sec.

How about a constant gee trip to Mars? Well this takes 48 hours each
way and consumes 9.9% of the total vehicles weight to go out and
back. A top speed of 858.2 km/sec is achieved.

How about a constant gee trip to Ceres and back? This takes 57 hours
each way and requires 21.7% of the ships mass be propellant.

Cutting these accelerations back to 1/10th gee - for freight - changes
the Earth Moon times to 5.6 hours each way the top speed to 39.6 km/
sec and the propellant fraction to 0.24% It changes the Earth Mars
times to 48.6 hours each way, top speed to 85.8 km/sec and propellant
fraction to 1%. It changes the Earth Ceres times to 114.1 hours top
speed to 403.2 km/sec and propellant fraction to 2.41% One way they
consume about 1.5% propellant fraction. Minimum energy orbits
require vastly less energy with longer trip times.

Wealthy humanity uses around 4 tonnes per person per year of
materials. 1.5 tons of that is fuel. This means that there are 2.5
tonnes per person per year is other stuff since practical fusion ends
reliance on fossil fuels. Assuming all persons are wealthy and obtain
their raw materials from the Asteroid belt at 1/10th gee - each person
would consume 28.2 kilograms of lithium-6. There are 21 trillion kg
of lithium-6 in Earth's oceans. Even more in the ices of Saturn's
moons and in the asteroids. Enough to last centuries even assuming
every man woman and child obtained every raw material they used on
Earth from the asteroid belt.

It takes up to 30 days to ship things by container ship. It takes 5
days to ship by fusion rocket at 1/10th gee.

The space travel problem is solved with this technology.

ZERO POINT ENERGY

The Casimir-Polder force is a well defined effect caused by the zero
point energy of the vacuum. Since this force is not conserved, it can
be tapped. That is the State Variable of the Vacuum is non-zero.

Chemicals have been designed to work with microscopic channels to take
advantage of this Casimir force to extract useful energy to change the
chemical's state.

This changes everything. And useful machines have been built using
them.

The important point here is we have no energy shortages running our
machinery and especially our self replicating machinery.

While this is useful for replacing chemical fuels, and batteries, it
does not yet work at the nuclear level, so, fusion power has specific
application.

WHAT CAN WE DO?

I am engaged in the following program;

(1) deploy a cloud of microscopic observers throughout the biosphere
that network together to implement a free intelligence service and
internet;

(2) send a 1 kg payload to Saturn at 1 gee using a 207 gram fusion
rocket (yes they can be made that small). It arrives in 9 days.

(3) deposit the self-replicating payload in the Saturnian moon
Iapetus. This moon contains 1.6e+21 kg of water ice. The Earth's
hydrosphere contains 1.4e+21 kg of water.

(4) process the entire body of Iapetus with self-replicating machine
systems extracting 2e+20 kg of raw materials, and sending sufficient
water to Venus to form an ocean that covers 50% of its surface,
sufficient water to cover 25% of Mars, 25% of the Moon and 25% of
Mercury with oceans.

(5) Eject ice from Saturn's moon Iapetus at 35 km/sec using fusion
energized rockets toward Venus, Mercury and the Moon, it arrives at 40
km/sec to 45 km/sec - and directed against the limb of these worlds,
causes them to spin - taking up a 24 hour day. Mars already spins
at a rate of 24 hours. It takes 9 months for the oceans to arrive at
these planets.

(6) During transit send small self-replicating systems to Venus, Mars,
the Moon and Mercury as well as Ceres and other major asteroids.
Process the atmosphere of Venus and the crusts of these worlds to a
depth of 20 km.

(7) There is enough nitrogen on Venus to sustain 4.3 Earth
atmospheres. Enough oxygen (when separated from Carbon) to sustain
306 Earth atmospheres. Enough carbon to construct large sun shields
and diamondoid solar panels at Lagrange Point 1 between the Sun and
Each planet. For Venus and Mercury these reduce light levels on the
planet to Earth normal. For Mars this operates as a condenser to
focus additional light on Mars to raise light levels to Earth normal.
Solar energy is used to drive powerful electro magnetic at each shield
to provide protection from Solar wind and Solar flares. The
atmospheric gases are sufficient to give Venus, Mars, the Moon and
Mercury earth normal atmospheres.

(8) The materials are processed in the crusts of each world to make
them stable after the arrival of water. Excess materials, and
especially metals, are extracted and sent to Lagrange Point 1, to be
held in trust for all mankind. These materials along with self-
replicating machine systems that extracted them, are capable of making
any manner of products.

(9) After the arrival and settling of the oceans, self replicating
machine systems shape the land and sea floor and establish stable
chemical conditions. Advanced propagation techniques are applied to a
small quantity of stock extracted from Earth to fill the land and
ocean with Earth life, including freely available food crops fiber
crops and livestock. This will be completed only 5 years after
launch of the initial Saturn probe. A total of 90 billion acres of
land have been developed.

(10) Based on modeling of the human race derived from the
intelligence network mentioned previously construct free flying fusion
powered space homes at Mercury and fly them to Earth. Pick up all
people who desire a freehold off world. Each man woman and child (7
billion total as of today) can claim 5 acres each, along with a
proportionate demand on the self-replicating systems and feedstock
materials extracted by this process - to build a self-sustaining
homestead anywhere of their choosing off world. They owe nothing for
this, it is a gift. The only requirement is that they give to those
in need as they see the need, as payment.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/62745980/Flying-Home

(11) Over the next 15 years the entire asteroid belt along with
surplus air and water, are used to complete a ring of large
interconnected space colonies in a ring 820 million km in diameter
with a colony diameter of 30 km - with a condenser orbiting sunward
240 km in diameter to achieve shielding and Earth normal light
levels. This has vast oceans and 7.3 TRILLION acres of productive
land area. Saturn's moon Enceladus provides additional water.
Neptune's moon Triton provides added nitrogen. Venus continues to
supply adequate oxygen. At 80 acres per home it will take over 600
years to reach that capacity of this structure.

(12) At Mercury large solar pumped laser arrays are built and deployed
to float on light pressure 3.7 million km above the Sun's surface.
Laser energy is directed outward to a reflector, also held in place by
light pressure, 100 billion km or more from the Sun. This reflector
bounces the light back AROUND the Sun, using its gravity as a vast
lens, allowing beams to be accurately formed and maintained across the
light years - pointed at a nearby star. Laser light sails operate
with fusion powered rockets to allow them to accelerate to 33% light
speed. They boost at 1/6 gee from the Solar system to 100 billion km
in about 4 months - along the line connecting Sol to the nearby star.
There a solar sail is deployed and the engine is cut off.
Acceleration rises to 1/3 gee - and lasts about 9 months. The ship is
now traveling at 100,000 km/sec. In 12 to 15 years depending on the
star, the ship arrives at the nearby star. There a similar laser
pointing away from the star, slows the ship after it deploys its light
sail. It arrives at the target star and uses its fusion engine to
slow further and navigate throughout the remote star system. Earlier,
two stage light sails deposited self replicating machine systems which
first surveyed the target star, and terra formed planets and built
space colonies - as at Sol. As for the Solar System, vast areas
around each star are turned to the support of human beings.

Starting in 2025 and continuing through 2300 - even assuming a 1.14%
per year rate of growth in human numbers, we can see that the number
of people per Earth area drops from 43 million to 5,000!!

This is the vision I have for space travel over the next few years.

Cheers
William Mook
  #7  
Old September 28th 11, 09:52 PM posted to sci.space.policy
William Mook[_2_]
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Posts: 3,836
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On Sep 27, 6:54*am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:
Check this out;


Ever wonder why we didn't have income taxes before 1913?


Uh, we did.


No we didn't.

The Sixteenth Amendment (Amendment XVI) to the United States
Constitution allows the Congress to levy an income tax. That was
passed at the same time as the Federal Reserve 1913.

Before that time Congress didn't do collect unapportioned taxes in
peace time. It merely spent money into existence.

In war time Congress had to spend more money than the growth of the
economy could absorb. So, to avoid inflation during the Civil War
Congress introduced the Revenue Act of 1861. It levied a flat tax of
3% on annual incomes above $800.

This act was replaced the following year with the Revenue Act of 1862,
which levied a graduated tax of 3–5% on income above $600. It also
specified a termination in 1866.

We didn't have income taxes before 1913 because before 1913 the USA
issued debt free currency as a sovereign state - and spent that money
into existence and then raised sufficient tax to keep the money in
circulation of stable value.


That's how Lincoln paid for the Civil War, and why the USA accumulated
so much wealth and grew so rapidly from the Civil War through 1913
despite millions of people coming to America during this period.


Gee, and here I thought that the first income tax was enacted in 1862
to pay for the Civil War and THAT is how they did it.


No. The money was printed and spent into existence without incurring
debt. The Revenue Act proves my point. It was an emergency measure
to keep the money Congress spent to prosecute the war from inflating
during the excessive demands of money from the war. It ended when the
war ended.



remaining Mookery of the facts removed unread


shrug If you read them maybe you'd learn something that you weren't
indoctrinated with and begin thinking for yourself. Your choice.



--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
*truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-- Thomas Jefferson



This quote is taken out of context. People should know that. In this
quote Jefferson was writing about Limestone in the State of Virginia
and commenting on Voltaire's theories of how Limestone came to have
the configuration found in the State of Virginia. The quote isn't
about life or philosophy of truth or anything and shouldn't be taken
that way.

With that in mind, I regard Freddies misquotation as a crude attempt
at psyop - trying to suggest the founding fathers embraced ignorance
as a general way of life.

They didn't. Jefferson was merely saying he thought Voltaire's
theories about Limestone formation in the State of Virginia were not
quite right.

Notes on the State of Virginia (1781-1783) was a book written by
Thomas Jefferson. Originally written in 1781, it was subsequently
updated and enlarged in 1782-83 and anonymously published in Paris in
1784.

It was the only book by Jefferson published during his lifetime. It
was written in order to answer questions posed to Jefferson about
Virginia by François Barbé-Marbois then the Secretary of the French
Legation in Philadelphia who mentioned Voltaire's theories to him and
to which he responded.

Here's the entire quote;

Limestone

But one vein of lime-stone is known below the Blue ridge. Its first
appearance, in our country, is in Prince William, two miles below the
Pignut ridge of mountains; thence it passes on nearly parallel with
that, and crosses the Rivanna about five miles below it, where it is
called the South-west ridge. It then crosses Hardware, above the mouth
of Hudson's creek, James river at the mouth of Rockfish, at the marble
quarry before spoken of, probably runs up that river to where it
appears again at Ross's iron-works, and so passes off south-westwardly
by Flat creek of Otter river. It is never more than one hundred yards
wide. From the Blue ridge westwardly the whole country seems to be
founded on a rock of lime-stone, besides infinite quantities on the
surface, both loose and fixed. This is cut into beds, which range, as
the mountains and sea-coast do, from south-west to north-east, the
lamina of each bed declining from the horizon towards a parallelism
with the axis of the earth. Being struck with this observation, I
made, with a quadrant, a great number of trials on the angles of their
declination, and found them to vary from 22 degrees to 60 degrees but
averaging all my trials, the result was within one-third of a degree
of the elevation of the pole or latitude of the place, and much the
greatest part of them taken separately were little different from
that: by which it appears, that these lamina are, in the main,
parallel with the axis of the earth. In some instances, indeed, I
found them perpendicular, and even reclining the other way: but these
were extremely rare, and always attended with signs of convulsion, or
other circumstances of singularity, which admitted a possibility of
removal from their original position. These trials were made between
Madison's cave and the Patowmac. We hear of lime-stone on the
Missisipi and Ohio, and in all the mountainous country between the
eastern and western waters, not on the mountains themselves, but
occupying the vallies between them.

Near the eastern foot of the North mountain are immense bodies of
_Schist_, containing impressions of shells in a variety of forms. I
have received petrified shells of very different kinds from the first
sources of the Kentucky, which bear no resemblance to any I have ever
seen on the tide-waters. It is said that shells are found in the
Andes, in South-America, fifteen thousand feet above the level of the
ocean. This is considered by many, both of the learned and unlearned,
as a proof of an universal deluge. To the many considerations opposing
this opinion, the following may be added. The atmosphere, and all its
contents, whether of water, air, or other matters, gravitate to the
earth; that is to say, they have weight. Experience tells us, that the
weight of all these together never exceeds that of a column of mercury
of 31 inches height, which is equal to one of rain-water of 35 feet
high. If the whole contents of the atmosphere then were water, instead
of what they are, it would cover the globe but 35 feet deep; but as
these waters, as they fell, would run into the seas, the superficial
measure of which is to that of the dry parts of the globe as two to
one, the seas would be raised only 52 1/2 feet above their present
level, and of course would overflow the lands to that height only. In
Virginia this would be a very small proportion even of the champaign
country, the banks of our tide-waters being frequently, if not
generally, of a greater height. Deluges beyond this extent then, as
for instance, to the North mountain or to Kentucky, seem out of the
laws of nature. But within it they may have taken place to a greater
or less degree, in proportion to the combination of natural causes
which may be supposed to have produced them. History renders probable
some instances of a partial deluge in the country lying round the
Mediterranean sea. It has been often (* 1) supposed, and is not
unlikely, that that sea was once a lake. While such, let us admit an
extraordinary collection of the waters of the atmosphere from the
other parts of the globe to have been discharged over that and the
countries whose waters run into it. Or without supposing it a lake,
admit such an extraordinary collection of the waters of the
atmosphere, and an influx of waters from the Atlantic ocean, forced by
long continued Western winds. That lake, or that sea, may thus have
been so raised as to overflow the low lands adjacent to it, as those
of Egypt and Armenia, which, according to a tradition of the Egyptians
and Hebrews, were overflowed about 2300 years before the Christian
aera; those of Attica, said to have been overflowed in the time of
Ogyges, about 500 years later; and those of Thessaly, in the time of
Deucalion, still 300 years posterior. But such deluges as these will
not account for the shells found in the higher lands. A second opinion
has been entertained, which is, that, in times anterior to the records
either of history or tradition, the bed of the ocean, the principal
residence of the shelled tribe, has, by some great convulsion of
nature, been heaved to the heights at which we now find shells and
other remains of marine animals. The favourers of this opinion do well
to suppose the great events on which it rests to have taken place
beyond all the aeras of history; for within these, certainly none such
are to be found: and we may venture to say further, that no fact has
taken place, either in our own days, or in the thousands of years
recorded in history, which proves the existence of any natural agents,
within or without the bowels of the earth, of force sufficient to
heave, to the height of 15,000 feet, such masses as the Andes. The
difference between the power necessary to produce such an effect, and
that which shuffled together the different parts of Calabria in our
days, is so immense, that, from the existence of the latter we are not
authorised to infer that of the former.

M. de Voltaire has suggested a third solution of this difficulty
(Quest. encycl. Coquilles). He cites an instance in Touraine, where,
in the space of 80 years, a particular spot of earth had been twice
metamorphosed into soft stone, which had become hard when employed in
building. In this stone shells of various kinds were produced,
discoverable at first only with the microscope, but afterwards growing
with the stone. From this fact, I suppose, he would have us infer,
that, besides the usual process for generating shells by the
elaboration of earth and water in animal vessels, nature may have
provided an equivalent operation, by passing the same materials
through the pores of calcareous earths and stones: as we see
calcareous dropstones generating every day by the percolation of water
through lime-stone, and new marble forming in the quarries from which
the old has been taken out; and it might be asked, whether it is more
difficult for nature to shoot the calcareous juice into the form of a
shell, than other juices into the forms of chrystals, plants, animals,
according to the construction of the vessels through which they pass?
There is a wonder somewhere. Is it greatest on this branch of the
dilemma; on that which supposes the existence of a power, of which we
have no evidence in any other case; or on the first, which requires us
to believe the creation of a body of water, and its subsequent
annihilation? The establishment of the instance, cited by M. de
Voltaire, of the growth of shells unattached to animal bodies, would
have been that of his theory. But he has not established it. He has
not even left it on ground so respectable as to have rendered it an
object of enquiry to the literati of his own country. Abandoning this
fact, therefore, the three hypotheses are equally unsatisfactory; and
we must be contented to acknowledge, that this great phaenomenon is as
yet unsolved. Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote
from the truth who believes nothing, then he who believes what is
wrong.

  #8  
Old September 29th 11, 10:49 AM posted to sci.space.policy
William Mook[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,836
Default Sadness

On Sep 29, 12:00*am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 27, 6:54 am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:
Check this out;


Ever wonder why we didn't have income taxes before 1913?


Uh, we did.


No we didn't.


Yes we did. *Go look it up, you ignorant ****.


I did you removed them.

http://www.irs.gov/app/understanding...hm02_les03.jsp

Mookie lies removed unread


The IRS is mis-stating the facts.

THIS IS WHAT YOUR REFERENCE SAYS:

In 1862, Congress passed the first federal income tax law to ease the
burden of Civil War debts. This early tax was a progressive tax. It
applied only to people who made more than $600, ensuring that the tax
was based on citizens' ability to pay. The government relied on
voluntary compliance with the income tax. Before it was repealed in
1872, this federal income tax provided nearly a quarter of the war
revenue.

HERE ARE THE FACTS

The Revenue Act of 1861 was extended in 1862 and was terminated in
1866. What the IRS says is a 'repeal' in 1872 is actually the defeat
of an attempt to restore the Revenue Act which was defeated in 1872.
The Revenue Act died a natural death in 1866.

More specifically, the Revenue Act of 1861, formally cited as Act of
August 5, 1861, Chap. XLV, 12 Stat. 292. The Act, motivated by the
need to redeem a portion of the sovereign dollars spent into existence
to pay for Civil War and avoid inflation at the same time.

Rates under the 1861 Revenue Act were 3% on income above $800

This was replaced in 1862. The tax provision (Sections 49, 50 and 51)
was repealed by the Revenue Act of 1862. Sec.89, which replaced the
flat rate with a progressive scale of 3% on annual incomes beyond
$600.

Significantly the Act was explicitly temporary specifying termination
of tax in "the year eighteen hundred and sixty-six".

That's why the Sixteenth Amendment had to be ratified in 1913 to allow
the federal government to tax citizens' incomes directly.

THE MAIN POINT:

The United States CREATED THE MONEY IT NEEDED AS A SOVEREIGN POWER
WITHOUT BORROWING!!!! Doing so saved US citizens significant interest
and maintaining control of the money supply. Taxes when they were
levied were apportioned and were raised only to take excess money out
of circulation to control inflation.

It wasn't until the creation of the FEDERAL RESERVE that the Sixteenth
Amendment was passed which caused Americans to be taxed generally.

TODAY ALL TAXES ARE PAID DIRECTLY TO THE PRIVATE FEDERAL RESERVE TO
PAY FOR INTEREST ON LOANS OUTSTANDING. THE MONEY THAT IS SPENT BY
CONGRESS IS THAT MONEY LOANED TO CONGRESS BY THE FEDERAL RESERVE AFTER
CONGRESS AGREES TO CONDITIONALITIES IMPOSED BY THE PRIVATELY OWNED
FEDERAL RESERVE.

THE FEDERAL RESERVE IS A SCAM TO EXTRACT THE WEALTH OF THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE AND ISN'T NEEDED FOR OUR GOVERNMENT TO FUNCTION!!!

THE PRESIDENT CAN CAUSE MONEY TO BE CREATED AND SPENT INTO EXISTENCE
WITHOUT BORROWING IT FROM THE FEDERAL RESERVE (See JFK Executive Order
11110 and Lincoln's Legal Tender Act of 1861) With the Super
Congress Obama could impose a TOBIN TAX OF 1% RETROACTIVELY over last
year's trading and rise $33 trillion and pay off the US Debt of $17
trillion. He could then issue sovereign currency against the $16
trillion liability and do whatever was needed. Accounting and legal
fees run about 2% of trading volume, so a 1% tax would be easily
supported. The US exchanges transacted $3.3 Quadrillion in trades
last year.

The Revolutionary War wasn't about taxes on tea. It was about King
George III along with British Parlaiment prohibiting New England from
issuing paper currency as legal tender. This imposes a hardship on
the colonists of the region, many of whom are engaged in the trading
economy and who find hard currency increasingly scarce because they
keep sending it to England in order to pay debts.


--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
*only stupid."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- Heinrich Heine


Fred's an asshole to say that what I said previously was a lie. The
man's a friggin' jerk.

  #9  
Old September 29th 11, 11:46 PM posted to sci.space.policy
William Mook[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,836
Default Sadness

On Sep 29, 10:07*am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 29, 12:00 am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 27, 6:54 am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:
Check this out;


Ever wonder why we didn't have income taxes before 1913?


Uh, we did.


No we didn't.


Yes we did. Go look it up, you ignorant ****.


I did you removed them.


No, you didn't. *You spewed a bunch of your usual paranoid delusions.

http://www.irs.gov/app/understanding...hm02_les03.jsp


Mookie lies removed unread


The IRS is mis-stating the facts.


And so is EVERYONE ELSE BUT MOOKIE!

Seek professional help.

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
*only stupid."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- Heinrich Heine


Its not me saying it Freddie, its the Congressional Record. Look up
the Revenue Act and its history and you'll see the IRS is misquoting
history on their web site.

In any case, the IRS and the facts prove my point about the ability of
the USA to operate without an income tax. Namely, that the United
States, as a Sovereign Power, has the ability to create money from
nothing and spend it into existence. It doesn't have to go beg for
money or borrow money. It does have a responsibility to regulate the
value of the money it creates. How does it do that? The taxes that
it collects is used to regulate the value of that money.

The IRS itself says the income tax collected 25% of the cost of the
war. Where did the other 75% come from? The fact is, the 75% came
from the printing presses. The growth of economic activity during
and after the war, absorbed and made good use of the currency. That
growth maintained its value. After the war the revenue expired and
the government went back to business as usual - without income tax.

If the United States created a 1% Tobin Tax on Wall Street
transactions last year, and urged all other nations to tax their stock
exchanges in a similar way, we could eliminate our current debts to
the central banks, not take any more loans from them, and issue debt
free currency the same way Lincoln did and the same way JFK did. We
also need to end fractional reserve banking and institute 100% reserve
banking. We finally need to phase out derivative trading and work to
get the quadrillions of dollars in fake liabilities off the books of
the world's banking system while preserving the health of the real
economy.

  #10  
Old September 30th 11, 10:17 PM posted to sci.space.policy
William Mook[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,836
Default Sadness

On Sep 29, 11:57*pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 29, 10:07 am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 29, 12:00 am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:
On Sep 27, 6:54 am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
wrote:
Check this out;


Ever wonder why we didn't have income taxes before 1913?


Uh, we did.


No we didn't.


Yes we did. Go look it up, you ignorant ****.


I did you removed them.


No, you didn't. You spewed a bunch of your usual paranoid delusions.


http://www.irs.gov/app/understanding...hm02_les03.jsp


Mookie lies removed unread


The IRS is mis-stating the facts.


And so is EVERYONE ELSE BUT MOOKIE!


Seek professional help.


Its not me saying it Freddie,


Yeah it is, Mookie.

remaining insanity elided

Seek professional help, you threadjacking little whackjob.

--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
*only stupid."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- Heinrich Heine


Obviously I'm just a mirror for your madness Fred. I only made one
comment on my own. All the others were in response to your errors. I
think if you cut the pills in half, you might have better results.
 




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