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Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!
Jeff Findley wrote:
"Rand Simberg" wrote in message ... On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:57:34 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J. Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: The Space Shuttle looks like a Hell of a "try" to me. Not really. No kidding. It hasn't fundamentally changed since it started flying. Neither has the 747. What do you want, for it it metamorphose into Klingon Bird Of Prey overnight? -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#42
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Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!
Fred J. McCall wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote: Rand Simberg wrote: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:46:36 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J. Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Manned spaceflight will be affordable when the general state of the art allows it to be. Right now any focussed effort is likely to just waste money. That depends on how the money is spent. NASA has been trying to reduce launch costs by that approach By what approach? Attempting to reduce the costs of manned spaceflight. Who? When? Where? How? Your two statement above say that "NASA has been trying to reduce launch costs by attempting to reduce the costs of manned spaceflight". When did NASA do that? They've been looking for ways to do it ever since I can remember. You really think they _like_ not being able to compete with Soyuz and Ariane? for going on 40 years now and they haven't succeeded. They've never really tried. The Space Shuttle looks like a Hell of a "try" to me. Then you're massively ignorant. They KNEW the operating costs for the Shuttle were going to be preposterously high. It was a deliberate decision made to try to reduce up-front costs. That's definitely not how you go about "attempting to reduce the costs of manned spaceflight". The Shuttle is pretty much the most expensive launch system in the world. So you're saying that NASA lied to Congress in their projected operating costs? The fact is that if the Shuttle had worked as intended it would have been relatively cheap to fly. But since they never flow any subsized prototypes with all up design features they got blindsided on the cost of refurbishment after flight and on the cost of recovering and refurbishing the SRBs and quite a lot of other stuff. You really think that NASA _planned_ to have a launch system that cost more to fly than what they already had? Can you say wingnut conspiracy theory? And they haven't come up with anything that is going to be significantly cheaper. That's because, contrary to your claim above, they are not trying to. So your'e saying that they like being embarrassed by the Russians and the ESA? -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#43
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Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:41:03 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J.
Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: The 'general state of the art' isn't going to go much of anywhere unless someone is writing checks to develop it. So you're saying that if Hillary is elected then all aviation R&D will be discontinued? Ever notice how whenever someone tries to tell someone else what "you're saying" that they inevitably are trying to put together some straw man? It's a pretty weak rhetorical tactic, when it comes right down to it. Aviation isn't space flight. Aviation research doesn't do much to improve the 'general state of the art' when it comes to space flight. But most of the cost is not "space flight", it is getting to space through the atmosphere, and that is avaiation. Ummmm...no. A launch vehicle spends very little time in the atmosphere. It tries to get through it as fast as it can, and it doesn't use it at all. |
#44
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Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:04:51 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J.
Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Rand Simberg wrote: On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:57:34 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J. Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Rand Simberg wrote: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:46:36 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J. Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Manned spaceflight will be affordable when the general state of the art allows it to be. Right now any focussed effort is likely to just waste money. That depends on how the money is spent. NASA has been trying to reduce launch costs by that approach By what approach? Attempting to reduce the costs of manned spaceflight. That's not an approach. It's a goal. What "approach" are you objecting to? You still haven't answered this question. for going on 40 years now and they haven't succeeded. They've never really tried. The Space Shuttle looks like a Hell of a "try" to me. Not really. So what would such a try cost if the billions spent on the Shuttle weren't enough? How much money is spent is beside the point. It's *how* it's spent. In the case of the Shuttle, it was spent poorly. A successful program to reduce the costs of access could cost much less than Shuttle cost, because that wasn't really the goal of the Shuttle. And they haven't come up with anything that is going to be significantly cheaper. They haven't made a serious attempt. So what would be a "serious attempt"? Flying lots of experimental vehicles for technology maturation, and putting out service contracts for massive amounts of payload delivery at a low price, for multiple contractors. Time to try something else. I didn't say NASA should do it, but NASA should be doing basic R&D as NACA used to. Yes, they should, which is what I said. No, it's not. Yes, it is. "basic R&D" is not directed toward any specific goal. You seem to want _directed_ R&D. Yes, R&D directed toward the problem of reducing the cost of access. NASA is currently not doing this. |
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Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!
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#46
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Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!
On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:31:14 -0700, in a place far, far away, Joe
Strout made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: In article , h (Rand Simberg) wrote: But most of the cost is not "space flight", it is getting to space through the atmosphere, and that is avaiation. Ummmm...no. A launch vehicle spends very little time in the atmosphere. It tries to get through it as fast as it can, and it doesn't use it at all. I was about to post pretty much the same thing, but then thought again. Though launch vehicles don't use the atmosphere, it certainly is a factor, imposing aerodynamic (and thermodynamic) stresses early in the launch. That doesn't make it aviation, any more than ballooning, or missile design is. And return vehicles (which, for people at least, is an important part of the total system) certainly do use it, and face even higher stresses as they shed all that kinetic energy returning from orbit. Again, that doesn't make it aviation. So, I think it's fair to at least say that aviation (or rather, aeronautics) is a significant factor of any launch & return system, No, it's not aeronautics. At best, it involves aerodynamics. |
#47
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Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!
"J. Clarke" wrote in message ... Jeff Findley wrote: "Rand Simberg" wrote in message ... On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:57:34 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J. Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: The Space Shuttle looks like a Hell of a "try" to me. Not really. No kidding. It hasn't fundamentally changed since it started flying. Neither has the 747. What do you want, for it it metamorphose into Klingon Bird Of Prey overnight? No, but there were hundreds of designs which preceded the 747. If you count the shuttle as a manned spacecraft, it's only the fourth US design. If you count it as an orbital launch vehicle, you may be able to claim a slightly higher number, but not by much. The shuttle has outlived its usefulness as a tool to further our knowledge of how to build more economic orbital launch vehicles. In fact, one could argue that it was a clear economic failure when the Challenger disaster made it blatantly obvious to everyone involved that the shuttle would never achieve a reasonable flight rate for a supposedly reusable launch vehicle. But we chose to fund a replacement and keep the program going without any clear vision for what to do next. Today, NASA has a clear vision, but it has absolutely nothing to do with reducing the costs of manned spaceflight. Jeff -- "When transportation is cheap, frequent, reliable, and flexible, everything else becomes easier." - Jon Goff |
#48
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Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!
J. Clarke wrote: So you're saying that NASA lied to Congress in their projected operating costs? In a nutshell, yes. They based their cost estimates per flight on 40-50 flights per year, even though they knew there never were going to be anywhere near that number, and the turnaround time of a orbiter was so great that you couldn't do that many anyway with just four orbiters. The fact is that if the Shuttle had worked as intended it would have been relatively cheap to fly. But since they never flow any subsized prototypes with all up design features they got blindsided on the cost of refurbishment after flight and on the cost of recovering and refurbishing the SRBs and quite a lot of other stuff. You really think that NASA _planned_ to have a launch system that cost more to fly than what they already had? Can you say wingnut conspiracy theory? Then you might want to add Robert F. Thompson, manager of the Shuttle program when it was being defined and brought to its first flight to that list also: http://www.spacedaily.com/news/shuttle-03p1.html Pat |
#49
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Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!
"J. Clarke" wrote:
:Fred J. McCall wrote: : "J. Clarke" wrote: : : Fred J. McCall wrote: : "J. Clarke" wrote: : : Manned spaceflight will be affordable when the general state of : the : art allows it to be. Right now any focussed effort is likely to : just : waste money. : : : The 'general state of the art' isn't going to go much of anywhere : unless someone is writing checks to develop it. : : So you're saying that if Hillary is elected then all aviation R&D : will be discontinued? : : : Ever notice how whenever someone tries to tell someone else what : "you're saying" that they inevitably are trying to put together some : straw man? It's a pretty weak rhetorical tactic, when it comes : right : down to it. : : Aviation isn't space flight. Aviation research doesn't do much to : improve the 'general state of the art' when it comes to space : flight. : :But most of the cost is not "space flight", it is getting to space :through the atmosphere, and that is avaiation. : Not really, no. : : When was the last time YOU saw a space vehicle powered by : high-efficiency turbofans? : :We don't have to worry about "space vehicles" until we can get there :for a reasonable price. : Back to that field foraging for berries, son. We don't have to worry about pick item of progress until we can do it for a reasonable price. The price is NEVER reasonable until some folks pay the unreasonable prices to spur development. -- "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson |
#50
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Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!
"Jeff Findley" wrote:
: :"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message .. . : "Jeff Findley" wrote: : :At least government funded manned space. In the long run, that might not be : :a bad thing. It would certainly remove the uncertainty of competition from : :the government when it comes to new launch vehicles (Ares I and V) and new : :manned vehicles (Orion). : : And how many folks currently getting government money dry up and blow : away? If the government stops manned space flight I wouldn't expect : private money to spend as much on it, either. : :I figure if the next administration stops Ares and Orion development, NASA :would get serious when it comes to commercial access to ISS. : I think you figure wrong. I figure NASA will be out of the ISS business once the Shuttle is retired. People will get to ISS riding on old Russian rockets that are 'cheap' because the development expense was done under a command economy and is already a sunk cost and they're built with really cheap labor. -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
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