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Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!



 
 
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  #31  
Old November 9th 07, 03:57 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,sci.geo.geology
J. Clarke
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Posts: 199
Default Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!

Rand Simberg wrote:
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:46:36 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J.
Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor
glow
in such a way as to indicate that:


Manned spaceflight will be affordable when the general state of
the
art allows it to be. Right now any focussed effort is likely to
just
waste money.

That depends on how the money is spent.


NASA has been trying to reduce launch costs by that approach


By what approach?


Attempting to reduce the costs of manned spaceflight.

for going
on 40 years now and they haven't succeeded.


They've never really tried.


The Space Shuttle looks like a Hell of a "try" to me. And they
haven't come up with anything that is going to be significantly
cheaper.

Time to try something else.


I didn't say NASA should do it, but NASA should be doing basic R&D
as
NACA used to.


Yes, they should, which is what I said.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


  #32  
Old November 9th 07, 04:35 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,sci.geo.geology
Rand Simberg[_1_]
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Posts: 8,311
Default Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:57:34 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J.
Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:46:36 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J.
Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor
glow
in such a way as to indicate that:


Manned spaceflight will be affordable when the general state of
the
art allows it to be. Right now any focussed effort is likely to
just
waste money.

That depends on how the money is spent.

NASA has been trying to reduce launch costs by that approach


By what approach?


Attempting to reduce the costs of manned spaceflight.


That's not an approach. It's a goal. What "approach" are you
objecting to?

for going
on 40 years now and they haven't succeeded.


They've never really tried.


The Space Shuttle looks like a Hell of a "try" to me.


Not really.

And they
haven't come up with anything that is going to be significantly
cheaper.


They haven't made a serious attempt.

Time to try something else.


I didn't say NASA should do it, but NASA should be doing basic R&D
as
NACA used to.


Yes, they should, which is what I said.


No, it's not.
  #33  
Old November 9th 07, 04:39 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,sci.geo.geology
Fred J. McCall
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Posts: 5,736
Default Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!

"Jeff Findley" wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
.. .
: She doesn't want to move it into R&D. I'd expect the R&D budget to
: get zeroed. She wants to move it into Earth Sciences.
:
: She has no interest in trying to "get the costs of manned space down
: to something sustainable." Her interest is in killing manned space.
:
:
:At least government funded manned space. In the long run, that might not be
:a bad thing. It would certainly remove the uncertainty of competition from
:the government when it comes to new launch vehicles (Ares I and V) and new
:manned vehicles (Orion).
:

And how many folks currently getting government money dry up and blow
away? If the government stops manned space flight I wouldn't expect
private money to spend as much on it, either.


--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney
  #34  
Old November 9th 07, 04:40 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,sci.geo.geology
Jeff Findley
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Posts: 5,012
Default Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!


"Rand Simberg" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:57:34 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J.
Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:
The Space Shuttle looks like a Hell of a "try" to me.


Not really.


No kidding. It hasn't fundamentally changed since it started flying.

Jeff
--
"When transportation is cheap, frequent, reliable, and flexible,
everything else becomes easier."
- Jon Goff


  #35  
Old November 9th 07, 04:41 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,sci.geo.geology
J. Clarke
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Posts: 199
Default Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!

Fred J. McCall wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

Fred J. McCall wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

Manned spaceflight will be affordable when the general state of
the
art allows it to be. Right now any focussed effort is likely to
just
waste money.


The 'general state of the art' isn't going to go much of anywhere
unless someone is writing checks to develop it.


So you're saying that if Hillary is elected then all aviation R&D
will be discontinued?


Ever notice how whenever someone tries to tell someone else what
"you're saying" that they inevitably are trying to put together some
straw man? It's a pretty weak rhetorical tactic, when it comes
right
down to it.

Aviation isn't space flight. Aviation research doesn't do much to
improve the 'general state of the art' when it comes to space
flight.


But most of the cost is not "space flight", it is getting to space
through the atmosphere, and that is avaiation.

When was the last time YOU saw a space vehicle powered by
high-efficiency turbofans?


We don't have to worry about "space vehicles" until we can get there
for a reasonable price.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


  #36  
Old November 9th 07, 04:44 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,sci.geo.geology
Jeff Findley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,012
Default Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!


"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
...
"Jeff Findley" wrote:
:At least government funded manned space. In the long run, that might not
be
:a bad thing. It would certainly remove the uncertainty of competition
from
:the government when it comes to new launch vehicles (Ares I and V) and
new
:manned vehicles (Orion).

And how many folks currently getting government money dry up and blow
away? If the government stops manned space flight I wouldn't expect
private money to spend as much on it, either.


I figure if the next administration stops Ares and Orion development, NASA
would get serious when it comes to commercial access to ISS.

Jeff
--
"When transportation is cheap, frequent, reliable, and flexible,
everything else becomes easier."
- Jon Goff


  #37  
Old November 9th 07, 04:44 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,sci.geo.geology
Fred J. McCall
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,736
Default Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!

"J. Clarke" wrote:

:Rand Simberg wrote:
: On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:46:36 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J.
: Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor
: glow
: in such a way as to indicate that:
:
:
: Manned spaceflight will be affordable when the general state of
: the
: art allows it to be. Right now any focussed effort is likely to
: just
: waste money.
:
: That depends on how the money is spent.
:
: NASA has been trying to reduce launch costs by that approach
:
: By what approach?
:
:Attempting to reduce the costs of manned spaceflight.
:

Who? When? Where? How?

Your two statement above say that "NASA has been trying to reduce
launch costs by attempting to reduce the costs of manned spaceflight".

When did NASA do that?

:
:
: for going
: on 40 years now and they haven't succeeded.
:
: They've never really tried.
:
:The Space Shuttle looks like a Hell of a "try" to me.
:

Then you're massively ignorant. They KNEW the operating costs for the
Shuttle were going to be preposterously high. It was a deliberate
decision made to try to reduce up-front costs. That's definitely not
how you go about "attempting to reduce the costs of manned
spaceflight".

The Shuttle is pretty much the most expensive launch system in the
world.

:
:And they
:haven't come up with anything that is going to be significantly
:cheaper.
:

That's because, contrary to your claim above, they are not trying to.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
  #38  
Old November 9th 07, 04:44 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,sci.geo.geology
J. Clarke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 199
Default Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!

Fred J. McCall wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

Fred J. McCall wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote:

Revision wrote:
"Jonathan"
Just like Space Solar Power seemed to dissappear almost
overnight once someone told Bush there's this govt agency
called NASA wanting to replace Texas crude with
solar power.

Heh heh ... it is hard to find a bigger moron than Bush, but
alas
we
have a volunteer.

First, anyone who works in the oil business knows that oil is a
depleting asset, and anything that can slow the use of oil is
welcome.

Second, though I would rather have a broomstick 25 cm up my ass
than
see Hillary elected President, the fact remains than manned
space
has
been an enormous cash drain at the expense of unmanned science
probes, so if it is bad news for some that Hillary wants to move
money from manned space to science, it is good news for others.

If she wants to move it into R&D I'm all for that. R&D is what's
going to ultimately get us a real space program. If NASA had put
what it's spent on the Shuttle in the last 30 years into R&D then
we'd likely have a moon base by now. What's needed is not
"manned
space at all costs", what's needed is to get the costs of manned
space down to something sustainable.

She doesn't want to move it into R&D. I'd expect the R&D budget
to
get zeroed. She wants to move it into Earth Sciences.


So you're saying that Hillary will discontinue all Federally funded
research of any kind? Do tell.


Here he goes again. Do try to stick to the context when
constructing
your little straw people, won't you?


What do you percieve to the "the context"?



She has no interest in trying to "get the costs of manned space
down
to something sustainable." Her interest is in killing manned
space.


Good. In its current form it _needs_ killing.


So you're anti-space? Just keep in mind that when money is removed
from manned space, it also gets removed from unmanned space.


Now what were you saying about straw men?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


  #39  
Old November 9th 07, 04:56 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,sci.geo.geology
Joe Strout
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Posts: 972
Default Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!

In article ,
"Jeff Findley" wrote:

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
...
"Jeff Findley" wrote:
:At least government funded manned space. In the long run, that might not
be
:a bad thing. It would certainly remove the uncertainty of competition
from
:the government when it comes to new launch vehicles (Ares I and V) and
new
:manned vehicles (Orion).

And how many folks currently getting government money dry up and blow
away? If the government stops manned space flight I wouldn't expect
private money to spend as much on it, either.


I figure if the next administration stops Ares and Orion development, NASA
would get serious when it comes to commercial access to ISS.


I'm a strong supporter of manned spaceflight -- but I agree, nothing
would be better than for Ares and Orion to die a quiet death. NASA
should be pushing the frontiers; access to orbit hasn't been a frontier
for decades, and NASA should get out of that business.

--
"Polywell" fusion -- an approach to nuclear fusion that might actually work.
Learn more and discuss via: http://www.strout.net/info/science/polywell/
  #40  
Old November 9th 07, 05:04 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history,sci.geo.geology
J. Clarke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 199
Default Hillary Clinton Declares War on....I TOLD YOU!

Rand Simberg wrote:
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:57:34 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J.
Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor
glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:46:36 -0500, in a place far, far away, "J.
Clarke" made the phosphor on my monitor
glow
in such a way as to indicate that:


Manned spaceflight will be affordable when the general state of
the
art allows it to be. Right now any focussed effort is likely
to
just
waste money.

That depends on how the money is spent.

NASA has been trying to reduce launch costs by that approach

By what approach?


Attempting to reduce the costs of manned spaceflight.


That's not an approach. It's a goal. What "approach" are you
objecting to?

for going
on 40 years now and they haven't succeeded.

They've never really tried.


The Space Shuttle looks like a Hell of a "try" to me.


Not really.


So what would such a try cost if the billions spent on the Shuttle
weren't enough?

And they
haven't come up with anything that is going to be significantly
cheaper.


They haven't made a serious attempt.


So what would be a "serious attempt"?

Time to try something else.

I didn't say NASA should do it, but NASA should be doing basic R&D
as
NACA used to.


Yes, they should, which is what I said.


No, it's not.


Yes, it is. "basic R&D" is not directed toward any specific goal.
You seem to want _directed_ R&D.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


 




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