Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station

"Jorge R. Frank" wrote in message
...
Alan Erskine wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
om...
Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro devices
associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we saying that
these are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?

No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.

Stated another way, they consider the risk incurred by the cosmonauts
fiddling with the pyrobolts is less than the risk incurred by performing
the next Soyuz entry without inspecting the bolts.

It does raise two interesting questions:

1) What happens if say there's a detonation of the bolt while removing it.
Forget the danger to the cosmonaut for now. What happens if there's damage
to the Soyuz? They've just mangled their ride home. Interesting position
to be in.

2) If I'm understanding the problem, Russia is saying they've had the same
problem on successive flights, namely a pyro NOT firing? As I recall this
is one area where the US program has a 100% safety record (at least in
manned craft).

If that's the case, that's a bit scary.



--
Greg Moore
SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available!
Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html

Big Picture question. I remember a former NASA employee having a nice
web site showing explosive bolts on the shuttle. Are the bolts bolted in
with the explosives already embedded, or are the bolts first tightened,
and then explosives added/injected ?

In the case of soyuz, I take it they would first cut the electrical
wires leading to the bolts ? Once this is done, would the bolts be
fairly safe to handle without much worry ? Will they want to ground
everything together to prevent risk of electrical discharge between
wrench, container and the bolt ?

Would it be correct to state that the cutting of the electrical wires
would be the most dangerous part since a charged scissor might introduce
a current when it comes into contact with the copper conductor ? (would
they have a plastic type of cutter for this job ?)

If they work in darkness (while the explosive would be much colder) does
this truly reduce the risk of detonation ?



No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.

No, I think that theye are more aware of public scrutiny of their
programme and realise they can't hide problems under the rug as much as
before. Once this issue became known to NASA, I think the russians had
no choice and couldn't be seen allowing a deffective soyuz to come back
down.

I think it is great that Russsia would have the guts to plan this EVA.
If this isn't as risky as it sounds, it may not be such a big deal.

The russian crew have a vested interest since they are coming down in
that craft. But one still wonders what they really think about the risks
involved in this EVA.

How much torque will be needed to unscrew that bolt ?

Maybe the bolts were made by the same person who made the on orbit spares
for the toilet? :-)

Brian

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"Jorge R. Frank" wrote in message
...
Alan Erskine wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
om...
Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro devices
associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we saying that
these are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?

No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.

Stated another way, they consider the risk incurred by the cosmonauts
fiddling with the pyrobolts is less than the risk incurred by performing
the next Soyuz entry without inspecting the bolts.

If you admit that there is no such thing as fault free operation, or that
mistakes will be made, and you want to send humans around in space, a
hostile environment, I think in the end you have to accept that this sort of
unexpected job will be needed from time to time. What I hope is that all the
expertise being learned is somehow kept and documented for the future.

When is this job supposed to occur?

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"nmp" wrote in message
...
Jorge R. Frank wrote:

Alan Erskine wrote:
"Jorge R. Frank" wrote in message
...
Alan Erskine wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
om...
Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro
devices associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we
saying that these are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?
No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.
Stated another way, they consider the risk incurred by the cosmonauts
fiddling with the pyrobolts is less than the risk incurred by
performing the next Soyuz entry without inspecting the bolts.

Have the crew trained for such a thing? I wouldn't have thought they'd
have the right tools for removal either as it's a rather specialised
device.

The tools were brought up on the most recent Progress.

It's almost beginning to sound like a safe and sensible operation.

"Oh it's just one of those things..."

Let's hope for the best.

Well, I'd hardly think that a bolt firing was going to damage the Soyuz,
since they are designed to fire to separate the units.
I think what worried me is that you are messing with wiring which has got
to work on all the other bolts when required, so they would need some way
to avoid any damage or shorts when removing bolts.

Maybe they should remove all bar two and use duct tape for the rest. That
would burn through very fast.. Note this is a joke.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote in message
m...
"Jorge R. Frank" wrote in message
...
Alan Erskine wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
om...
Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro devices
associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we saying that
these are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?

No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.

Stated another way, they consider the risk incurred by the cosmonauts
fiddling with the pyrobolts is less than the risk incurred by performing
the next Soyuz entry without inspecting the bolts.

It does raise two interesting questions:

1) What happens if say there's a detonation of the bolt while removing it.
Forget the danger to the cosmonaut for now. What happens if there's
damage to the Soyuz? They've just mangled their ride home. Interesting
position to be in.

2) If I'm understanding the problem, Russia is saying they've had the same
problem on successive flights, namely a pyro NOT firing? As I recall this
is one area where the US program has a 100% safety record (at least in
manned craft).

If that's the case, that's a bit scary.



--
Greg Moore
SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available!
Email: sql (at) greenms.com
http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
om...
Well, I'd hardly think that a bolt firing was going to damage the Soyuz,
since they are designed to fire to separate the units.
I think what worried me is that you are messing with wiring which has got
to work on all the other bolts when required, so they would need some way
to avoid any damage or shorts when removing bolts.

Maybe they should remove all bar two and use duct tape for the rest. That
would burn through very fast.. Note this is a joke.

I note the joke, but don't forget that the crew are going to have to remove
the bolt; it could short-circuit and BOOM! Even if there's no juice going
to the bolt at the time, there's static that it's not designed to deal with.
The suit could be ruptured at the very least.

The bold isn't designed for removal (not in one piece, anyway). And that's
the real problem; the bolts aren't designed for on-orbit removal. They're
going to have to remove the bolt wearing cumbersome gloves, in a pressure
suite.... Sure, they've tried it out in the big pool, but geez....

Alan Erskine wrote:

What about the training? That's got to be tough.


The crews are not monkeys. They are intelligent human beings.

If they have people on the ground try to remove a bolt, measure the
torque and have a tool that can unscrew the bolt in a pool or on a
skating rink (aka: no traction to a floor in 1G), then they should be
able to transmit instructions to the station crew.

NASA's micro managing of EVAs with extensive training probably has more
to do with scheduling of tasks. Of you have good grasp of how long each
task takes you can have good degree of assurance that all those tasks
will be accomplished during that EVA.

"John Doe" wrote in message
...
Alan Erskine wrote:

What about the training? That's got to be tough.


The crews are not monkeys. They are intelligent human beings.

I've no doubt about that. I'm just wondering if anyone's had the nerve/guts
to do some training with _live_ bolts on the ground. As I said before,
there's static. Don't forget that the bolts are not designed to be exposed
to the heat and cold cycles either. The bolts are just not designed to be
removed on-orbit.

Alan Erskine wrote:

I've no doubt about that. I'm just wondering if anyone's had the nerve/guts
to do some training with _live_ bolts on the ground. As I said before,
there's static. Don't forget that the bolts are not designed to be exposed
to the heat and cold cycles either. The bolts are just not designed to be
removed on-orbit.

They can train on the ground with unexplosive bolts. This, to check the
usability of the wrench and torque/force needed to get the bolt to unscrew.

Then, they can play with explosive bolts in a controlled room where they
can subject the bolt to various electrostatic discharges to see it it
will self detonate.

They might also rig up a remotely operated wrench to loosen the bolt and
see if it causes any danger of detonation.

I assume those bolts are normally housed in some form of cocoon designed
to capture the fragments of the exploding bolt. Does removing the cocoon
expose those bolts to conditions not experienced during 6 months of stay
in orbit and raise likelyhood of detonation ? I wouldn't think so.

"Jorge R. Frank" wrote:

Alan Erskine wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
om...
Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro devices
associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we saying that these
are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?

No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.

Stated another way, they consider the risk incurred by the cosmonauts
fiddling with the pyrobolts is less than the risk incurred by performing
the next Soyuz entry without inspecting the bolts.

Which sounds frightening as hell.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL