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The first step for mankind in a long time
As the Earth turns,it creates the daylight/darkness cycle -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vmmv0gOfWw This effect is due to to rotation therefore the next effect will be due to the next fact that the Earth is not only rotating but round hence the latitudinal variations in twilight as an extension of the most basic cause and effect between planetary dynamics and terrestrial experiences.The information that any given location at the equator is transiting through the circle of illumination at 1037.5 miles per hour while at 60 degrees latitude North/South,the rotational speed is 800 miles per hour is clear enough to forward the conclusion that slower rotational speeds result in longer twilights than at the maximum equatorial speed at the equator aside from any seasonal variation. The current empirical explanation for twilight variations at different latitudes is hideous as expected and unfit for any sane or intelligent person in the 21st century,the geocentric idea that the angle of the apparent motion of the Sun influences twilight variations is useful in presenting the scandalous behavior of everyone in allowing these things to persist in an era when we can actually view the Earth's daily rotation from space thereby resolving the cause and effect directly - " This is because at low latitudes the sun's apparent movement is perpendicular to the observer's horizon. As one gets closer to the Arctic and Antarctic circles, the sun's disk moves toward the observer's horizon at a lower angle. The observer's earthly location will pass through the various twilight zones less directly, taking more time." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight As there is no specific organisation or institution that can handle the basic insight linking cause and effect and presently, no astronomers worthy of the name,this newsgroup will simply have to do until people become more responsive and responsible. |
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The first step for mankind in a long time
On 3/30/10 4:11 AM, oriel36 wrote:
As the Earth turns,it creates the daylight/darkness cycle - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vmmv0gOfWw This effect is due to to rotation therefore the next effect will be due to the next fact that the Earth is not only rotating but round hence the latitudinal variations in twilight as an extension of the most basic cause and effect between planetary dynamics and terrestrial experiences.The information that any given location at the equator is transiting through the circle of illumination at 1037.5 miles per hour while at 60 degrees latitude North/South,the rotational speed is 800 miles per hour is clear enough to forward the conclusion that slower rotational speeds result in longer twilights than at the maximum equatorial speed at the equator aside from any seasonal variation. The current empirical explanation for twilight variations at different latitudes is hideous as expected and unfit for any sane or intelligent person in the 21st century,the geocentric idea that the angle of the apparent motion of the Sun influences twilight variations is useful in presenting the scandalous behavior of everyone in allowing these things to persist in an era when we can actually view the Earth's daily rotation from space thereby resolving the cause and effect directly - " This is because at low latitudes the sun's apparent movement is perpendicular to the observer's horizon. As one gets closer to the Arctic and Antarctic circles, the sun's disk moves toward the observer's horizon at a lower angle. The observer's earthly location will pass through the various twilight zones less directly, taking more time." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight As there is no specific organisation or institution that can handle the basic insight linking cause and effect and presently, no astronomers worthy of the name,this newsgroup will simply have to do until people become more responsive and responsible. Gerald we can calculate twilight precisely: http://www.gandraxa.com/length_of_day.aspx#toc71 Twilight "The sun does not appear or disappear just so, a shorter or longer twilight period begins before the start of the day, or ends after the end of the day, resp., i.e. the twilight affects the duration of the "dark" night, never the duration of the "bright" day. "For most purposes, it is sufficient to take the Civil Twilight plus the Nautical Twilight into consideration, but not the Astronomical Twilight (which latter for casual observers would be interpreted as fully dark anyway). "Civil Twilight is defined as the sun being 6° below the horizon, Nautical Twilight as 12°. Therefore, the duration of the twilight depends on how long the sun needs to cross these 12°, and this (mainly) depends from the angle the sun circle is tilted towards the planet's "disc". This angle is steep (orthogonal to the planet's disc) at the equator. The further away from the equator the observer is, the flatter the angle becomes, and there are Northern regions in which not the whole twilight cycle is completed. This is the case for all latitudes North of 90°-Axis-12°=54.561°. "To some extent the angle also depends from the day of year: It is at the equinoxes that the angle is steepest for any latitude, and on the Northern hemisphere the summer solstice is flattest (also the winter solstice is flatter than at the equinoxes, but not so flat as at the summer solstice). However, the differences along a year are short and extend over some minutes only". Get out you Phone or iPod Touch... There's an App for that. |
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The first step for mankind in a long time
On Mar 30, 6:50*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 3/30/10 4:11 AM, oriel36 wrote: No need to pull sci.physics into the thread,the people there have other things going on and it adds nothing to sci.astro.amateur. As the Earth turns,it creates the daylight/darkness cycle - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vmmv0gOfWw This effect is due to to rotation therefore the next effect will be due to the next fact that the Earth is not only rotating but round hence the latitudinal variations in twilight as an extension of the most basic cause and effect between planetary dynamics and terrestrial experiences.The information that any given location at the equator is transiting through the circle of illumination at 1037.5 miles per hour while at 60 degrees latitude North/South,the rotational speed is 800 miles per hour is clear enough to forward the conclusion that slower rotational speeds result in longer twilights than at the maximum equatorial speed at the equator aside from any seasonal variation. The current empirical explanation for twilight variations at different latitudes is hideous as expected and unfit for any sane or intelligent person in the 21st century,the geocentric idea that the angle of the apparent motion of the Sun influences twilight variations is useful in presenting the scandalous behavior of everyone in allowing these things to persist in an era when we can actually view the Earth's daily rotation from space thereby resolving the cause and effect directly - " This is because at low latitudes the sun's apparent movement is perpendicular to the observer's horizon. As one gets closer to the Arctic and Antarctic circles, the sun's disk moves toward the observer's horizon at a lower angle. The observer's earthly location will pass through the various twilight zones less directly, taking more time." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight As there is no specific organisation or institution that can handle the basic insight linking cause and effect *and presently, no astronomers worthy of the name,this newsgroup will simply have to do until people become more responsive and responsible. * *Gerald we can calculate twilight precisely: * * *http://www.gandraxa.com/length_of_day.aspx#toc71 Well Sam,I pulled the thread for the careless title and the usual indifference to spelling and what have you,no excuse that these things could always be better regardless of how important I may feel the actual technical content is. With all due respect to the latest empirical attempt to transfer experimental sciences directly into the celestial arena by smashing things in each other with ' no center/no circumference' ideologies of big bang/black hole ,I attempt to reposition astronomy as an exercise in interpretation of physical effects allied with a comprehension of the planetary dynamics behind the effect,something most people simply leave behind as unimportant or trivial.No offence to those euro- physicists following the Ra/Dec conceptual monsters which lead to non geometric entities of big bang/black hole (think about no center/no circumference for a few seconds and you conclude nothing geometrical there but only a wordplay) but people everywhere will gain more satisfaction ,at least in this era where rapid air travel between latitudes is possible,that the reason why darkness descends rapidly at the equator depends on the equatorial speed there while longer twilights further North and South are due to slower rotational speeds as those locations take longer to pass through the circle of illumination which separates daylight from darkness or astronomically,solar radiation from the orbital shadow of the Earth.. Twilight "The sun does not appear or disappear just so, a shorter or longer twilight period begins before the start of the day, or ends after the end of the day, resp., i.e. the twilight affects the duration of the "dark" night, never the duration of the "bright" day. "For most purposes, it is sufficient to take the Civil Twilight plus the Nautical Twilight into consideration, but not the Astronomical Twilight (which latter for casual observers would be interpreted as fully dark anyway). "Civil Twilight is defined as the sun being 6° below the horizon, Nautical Twilight as 12°. Therefore, the duration of the twilight depends on how long the sun needs to cross these 12°, and this (mainly) depends from the angle the sun circle is tilted towards the planet's "disc". This angle is steep (orthogonal to the planet's disc) at the equator. The further away from the equator the observer is, the flatter the angle becomes, and there are Northern regions in which not the whole twilight cycle is completed. This is the case for all latitudes North of 90°-Axis-12°=54.561°. "To some extent the angle also depends from the day of year: It is at the equinoxes that the angle is steepest for any latitude, and on the Northern hemisphere the summer solstice is flattest (also the winter solstice is flatter than at the equinoxes, but not so flat as at the summer solstice). However, the differences along a year are short and extend over some minutes only". Now it all a matter of finding honorable people with enough intelligence to know that the daylight/darkness cycle and the fact the Earth is round and rotating to explain why different latitudes experience different twilight lengths or,more precisely,why a location at the equator is transiting through the circle of illumination at 1037.5 miles per hour while at 60 degrees lat North/South,the rotational speed is 800 miles per hour. Are you surprised that the proof for daily rotation through 360 degrees based on cause and effect is far more interesting than the false conclusion Flamsteed used by way of circumpolar motion of the constellations ?. |
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The first step for mankind in a long time
On Mar 30, 11:35*am, oriel36 wrote:
...I attempt to reposition astronomy as an exercise in interpretation of physical effects allied with a comprehension of the planetary dynamics behind the effect,something most people simply leave behind as unimportant or trivial. Could it be that, perhaps, it is because it IS trivial? ... but people everywhere will gain more satisfaction ,at least in this era where rapid *air travel between latitudes is possible,that the reason why darkness descends rapidly at the equator depends on the equatorial speed there while longer twilights further North and South are due to slower rotational speeds as those locations take longer to pass through the circle of illumination which separates daylight from darkness or astronomically,solar radiation from the orbital shadow of the Earth.. Again, you are incapable of learning anything new, and are simply thick as a brick... Are you surprised that the proof for daily rotation through 360 degrees based on cause and effect is far more interesting than the false conclusion Flamsteed used by way of circumpolar motion of the constellations ?. You have a lot to learn about what constitutes a "proof", and your pretty pictures or so-called "intuitive intelligence" isn't it... |
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The first step for mankind in a long time
On Mar 30, 12:35*pm, oriel36 wrote:
No need to pull sci.physics into the thread,the people there have other things going on and it adds nothing to sci.astro.amateur. Something I agree with totally. I know I can't really persuade you that Newton's empiricism is the "one true way" and your geometry and intuition are not, in fact, leading you to the truth. There would have to be a willingness on your part to accept that you may be wrong, and I would have to fully address your concerns. I don't really know what some of your concerns are, even though I have tried to understand your posts to a limited extent. If the high precision to which the motions of the planets are predicted, and especially, if the predictions by which Neptune was found - based on Newton's theory of gravity, his reduction of the motions of the planets to inverse-square gravity plus empirically- derived laws of mechanics - don't convince you that Newton _was_ right, I am at a loss as to what would. But it is because we have all around us in our technology - such as the computer you use to post to this forum - proof that science today, with its empiricism and with its advanced mathematics, *is* on the right track, that your advocacy of switching horses to a very different way of thinking falls on deaf ears. For your efforts to find "brave souls" to be more than an exercise in frustration for you, you will need to do a great deal of rethinking - and learning. John Savard |
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The first step for mankind in a long time
On Mar 30, 6:50*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
Sam,unfortunately I have to leapfrog the two nuisances and re-submit the important point in order to ask why an entire race of people choose a half baked geocentric solution based on the apparent angle and motion of the Sun as it hits the horizon when the easily understood cause and effect of daily rotation explains that we experience the daylight/darkness cycle to the fact that the Earth is rotating and latitudinal differences in twilight due to the fact that the Earth is round and has known rotational speeds for each latitude away from the maximum equatorial speed of 1037.5 miles per hour and an entire rotation of the equatorial circumference in 24 hours.On second thoughts I already technically know why people abandon the cause and effect of latitudinal twilight variations as an extension of the daylight/darkness cycle and as an affirmation that the Earth is round and rotating but still can't get my head around the unintelligent geocentric alternative in an era where the answer can be viewed from space "Civil Twilight is defined as the sun being 6 degrees below the horizon, Nautical Twilight as 12 degrees Therefore, the duration of the twilight depends on how long the sun needs to cross these 12 degrees, and this (mainly) depends from the angle the sun circle is tilted towards the planet's "disc". This angle is steep (orthogonal to the planet's disc) at the equator. The further away from the equator the observer is, the flatter the angle becomes, and there are Northern regions in which not the whole twilight cycle is completed." I am truly astounded that I can find nobody who enjoys the way things turned out insofar as watching the empirical approach to astronomy evolve is something else and especially as it give rise to the modelling/predictive agendas and a speculative binge that has tributaries running to climate,modelling the financial chaos which sent have the Western world into penury and even after science is barely looked on presently as a going concern,here we have these LHC guys merrily oblivious to the Ra/Dec structure which is driving it all. I read recently about the subprime lending debacle and the mathematical modelling that went on - "In the world of finance, too many quants see only the numbers before them and forget about the concrete reality the figures are supposed to represent. They think they can model just a few years' worth of data and come up with probabilities for things that may happen only once every 10,000 years. Then people invest on the basis of those probabilities, without stopping to wonder whether the numbers make any sense at all." http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/maga...urrentPage=all The parent ideology which give rise to tributaries such as the recent financial meltdown and the antecedent speculative binge is many times more interesting and contains stories within stories,how the longitude problem was resolved by watches as opposed to other methods including Flamsteed's,the original arguments for planetary dynamics and the empirical mutations that hijacked them,the complete abandonment of geometric and physical considerations a hundred years ago,the emergence of modern imaging and data and the conceptual gridlock that exists today are any one of a number of stories all waiting for able astronomical interpreters. The proof for daily rotation through 360 degrees in 24 hours relies on cause/effect and known latitudinal speeds,it is presented so as not to show that you are wrong or limited in your understanding but simply it is what it is and takes no real effort to understand,that you do have difficulties along with everyone else reflects a situation that should not exist. |
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The first step for mankind in a long time
On 3/31/10 8:06 AM, oriel36 wrote:
Sam,unfortunately I have to leapfrog the two nuisances and re-submit the important point in order to ask why an entire race of people choose a half baked geocentric solution based on the apparent angle and motion of the Sun as it hits the horizon when the easily understood cause and effect of daily rotation... I think any misunderstanding is entirely your own Gerald. http://janus.astro.umd.edu/SolarSystems/ |
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The first step for mankind in a long time
On Mar 31, 2:42*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 3/31/10 8:06 AM, oriel36 wrote: Sam,unfortunately I have to leapfrog the two nuisances and re-submit the important point in order to ask why an entire race of people choose a half baked geocentric solution based on the apparent angle and motion of the Sun as it hits the horizon when the easily understood cause and effect of daily rotation... * *I think any misunderstanding is entirely your own Gerald. * * *http://janus.astro.umd.edu/SolarSystems/ There you go,the most basic extension to the daylight/darkness cycle,in this case latitudinal variations in twilight length due to the fact that the Earth is both round and rotating and consequently slower rotation speeds correlate to longer twilights depending on latitude and there is not a single place in the entire internet where this is explained properly using the known rotational speeds for each given latitude. I will say it again,the story of how we arrived at this particular situation in history where a basic explanation for a terrestrial effect such as twilight is shunned for an entirely geocentric explanation is quite something else if not spectacular in all the wrong ways and allows me to provide a commentary of sorts .The core modelling/predictive agenda on which the present highly speculative empirical agendas are based,and they now roam over many aspects of human endeavor from finance to geology to climate and so on,is an elaborate scheme that empiricists never understood themselves insofar as witnessing the attempt 100 years ago to deal with absolute/relative time,space and motion as they thought Isaac meant it,they were hopelessly lost in the way Newton treated the genuine astronomical insights and especially the main argument Copernicus used to the Earth's orbital motion. This is not self-congratulation but I wish you could see things from the wider perspective and the astonishing inaction to a huge human tragedy that is for the most part self-inflicted and can be traced to a few individuals in the late 17th century, for all the tributaries of prediction/modelling which began when Isaac attempted to fit the orbital motion of the Earth into the calendar based right ascension and so began the linkage between 'predictions' and solar system modelling now reach into all areas of existence with the same devastating effect. Coming to a full picture,at least in respect to the distortions acting on genuine astronomical insights,is quite an experience and involves stories within stories,some technical and others just turning known astronomical innovators as puppets but ultimately it diminishes our race and human achievement. |
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The first step for mankind in a long time
On Mar 31, 9:14*am, oriel36 wrote:
...and there is not a single place in the entire internet where this is explained properly using the known rotational speeds for each given latitude. What you mean to say is that there is not a single place on the internet that explains it the way YOU want to see it explained. Of course, this is only because you are completely and utterly wrong. I will say it again,the story of how we arrived at this particular situation in history where a basic explanation for a terrestrial effect such as twilight *is shunned for an entirely geocentric explanation is quite something else if not spectacular in all the wrong ways and allows me to provide a commentary of sorts . In other words, you live in your own little fantasy world, surrounded by pretty pictures, still unable to learn anything new. - The Nuisance |
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