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The first step for mankind in a long time



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 30th 10, 10:11 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Posts: 8,478
Default The first step for mankind in a long time

As the Earth turns,it creates the daylight/darkness cycle -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vmmv0gOfWw

This effect is due to to rotation therefore the next effect will be
due to the next fact that the Earth is not only rotating but round
hence the latitudinal variations in twilight as an extension of the
most basic cause and effect between planetary dynamics and terrestrial
experiences.The information that any given location at the equator is
transiting through the circle of illumination at 1037.5 miles per hour
while at 60 degrees latitude North/South,the rotational speed is 800
miles per hour is clear enough to forward the conclusion that slower
rotational speeds result in longer twilights than at the maximum
equatorial speed at the equator aside from any seasonal variation.


The current empirical explanation for twilight variations at different
latitudes is hideous as expected and unfit for any sane or intelligent
person in the 21st century,the geocentric idea that the angle of the
apparent motion of the Sun influences twilight variations is useful in
presenting the scandalous behavior of everyone in allowing these
things to persist in an era when we can actually view the Earth's
daily rotation from space thereby resolving the cause and effect
directly -

" This is because at low latitudes the sun's apparent movement is
perpendicular to the observer's horizon. As one gets closer to the
Arctic and Antarctic circles, the sun's disk moves toward the
observer's horizon at a lower angle. The observer's earthly location
will pass through the various twilight zones less directly, taking
more time."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight

As there is no specific organisation or institution that can handle
the basic insight linking cause and effect and presently, no
astronomers worthy of the name,this newsgroup will simply have to do
until people become more responsive and responsible.

  #2  
Old March 30th 10, 06:50 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur,sci.physics
Sam Wormley[_2_]
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Posts: 3,966
Default The first step for mankind in a long time

On 3/30/10 4:11 AM, oriel36 wrote:
As the Earth turns,it creates the daylight/darkness cycle -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vmmv0gOfWw

This effect is due to to rotation therefore the next effect will be
due to the next fact that the Earth is not only rotating but round
hence the latitudinal variations in twilight as an extension of the
most basic cause and effect between planetary dynamics and terrestrial
experiences.The information that any given location at the equator is
transiting through the circle of illumination at 1037.5 miles per hour
while at 60 degrees latitude North/South,the rotational speed is 800
miles per hour is clear enough to forward the conclusion that slower
rotational speeds result in longer twilights than at the maximum
equatorial speed at the equator aside from any seasonal variation.


The current empirical explanation for twilight variations at different
latitudes is hideous as expected and unfit for any sane or intelligent
person in the 21st century,the geocentric idea that the angle of the
apparent motion of the Sun influences twilight variations is useful in
presenting the scandalous behavior of everyone in allowing these
things to persist in an era when we can actually view the Earth's
daily rotation from space thereby resolving the cause and effect
directly -

" This is because at low latitudes the sun's apparent movement is
perpendicular to the observer's horizon. As one gets closer to the
Arctic and Antarctic circles, the sun's disk moves toward the
observer's horizon at a lower angle. The observer's earthly location
will pass through the various twilight zones less directly, taking
more time."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight

As there is no specific organisation or institution that can handle
the basic insight linking cause and effect and presently, no
astronomers worthy of the name,this newsgroup will simply have to do
until people become more responsive and responsible.


Gerald we can calculate twilight precisely:
http://www.gandraxa.com/length_of_day.aspx#toc71

Twilight


"The sun does not appear or disappear just so, a shorter or longer
twilight period begins before the start of the day, or ends after the
end of the day, resp., i.e. the twilight affects the duration of the
"dark" night, never the duration of the "bright" day.

"For most purposes, it is sufficient to take the Civil Twilight plus the
Nautical Twilight into consideration, but not the Astronomical Twilight
(which latter for casual observers would be interpreted as fully dark
anyway).

"Civil Twilight is defined as the sun being 6° below the horizon,
Nautical Twilight as 12°. Therefore, the duration of the twilight
depends on how long the sun needs to cross these 12°, and this (mainly)
depends from the angle the sun circle is tilted towards the planet's
"disc". This angle is steep (orthogonal to the planet's disc) at the
equator. The further away from the equator the observer is, the flatter
the angle becomes, and there are Northern regions in which not the whole
twilight cycle is completed. This is the case for all latitudes North of
90°-Axis-12°=54.561°.

"To some extent the angle also depends from the day of year: It is at
the equinoxes that the angle is steepest for any latitude, and on the
Northern hemisphere the summer solstice is flattest (also the winter
solstice is flatter than at the equinoxes, but not so flat as at the
summer solstice). However, the differences along a year are short and
extend over some minutes only".

Get out you Phone or iPod Touch... There's an App for that.


  #3  
Old March 30th 10, 07:35 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur,sci.physics
oriel36[_2_]
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Posts: 8,478
Default The first step for mankind in a long time

On Mar 30, 6:50*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 3/30/10 4:11 AM, oriel36 wrote:


No need to pull sci.physics into the thread,the people there have
other things going on and it adds nothing to sci.astro.amateur.






As the Earth turns,it creates the daylight/darkness cycle -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vmmv0gOfWw


This effect is due to to rotation therefore the next effect will be
due to the next fact that the Earth is not only rotating but round
hence the latitudinal variations in twilight as an extension of the
most basic cause and effect between planetary dynamics and terrestrial
experiences.The information that any given location at the equator is
transiting through the circle of illumination at 1037.5 miles per hour
while at 60 degrees latitude North/South,the rotational speed is 800
miles per hour is clear enough to forward the conclusion that slower
rotational speeds result in longer twilights than at the maximum
equatorial speed at the equator aside from any seasonal variation.


The current empirical explanation for twilight variations at different
latitudes is hideous as expected and unfit for any sane or intelligent
person in the 21st century,the geocentric idea that the angle of the
apparent motion of the Sun influences twilight variations is useful in
presenting the scandalous behavior of everyone in allowing these
things to persist in an era when we can actually view the Earth's
daily rotation from space thereby resolving the cause and effect
directly -


" This is because at low latitudes the sun's apparent movement is
perpendicular to the observer's horizon. As one gets closer to the
Arctic and Antarctic circles, the sun's disk moves toward the
observer's horizon at a lower angle. The observer's earthly location
will pass through the various twilight zones less directly, taking
more time."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight


As there is no specific organisation or institution that can handle
the basic insight linking cause and effect *and presently, no
astronomers worthy of the name,this newsgroup will simply have to do
until people become more responsive and responsible.


* *Gerald we can calculate twilight precisely:
* * *http://www.gandraxa.com/length_of_day.aspx#toc71


Well Sam,I pulled the thread for the careless title and the usual
indifference to spelling and what have you,no excuse that these things
could always be better regardless of how important I may feel the
actual technical content is.

With all due respect to the latest empirical attempt to transfer
experimental sciences directly into the celestial arena by smashing
things in each other with ' no center/no circumference' ideologies of
big bang/black hole ,I attempt to reposition astronomy as an exercise
in interpretation of physical effects allied with a comprehension of
the planetary dynamics behind the effect,something most people simply
leave behind as unimportant or trivial.No offence to those euro-
physicists following the Ra/Dec conceptual monsters which lead to non
geometric entities of big bang/black hole (think about no center/no
circumference for a few seconds and you conclude nothing geometrical
there but only a wordplay) but people everywhere will gain more
satisfaction ,at least in this era where rapid air travel between
latitudes is possible,that the reason why darkness descends rapidly at
the equator depends on the equatorial speed there while longer
twilights further North and South are due to slower rotational speeds
as those locations take longer to pass through the circle of
illumination which separates daylight from darkness or
astronomically,solar radiation from the orbital shadow of the Earth..







Twilight

"The sun does not appear or disappear just so, a shorter or longer
twilight period begins before the start of the day, or ends after the
end of the day, resp., i.e. the twilight affects the duration of the
"dark" night, never the duration of the "bright" day.

"For most purposes, it is sufficient to take the Civil Twilight plus the
Nautical Twilight into consideration, but not the Astronomical Twilight
(which latter for casual observers would be interpreted as fully dark
anyway).

"Civil Twilight is defined as the sun being 6° below the horizon,
Nautical Twilight as 12°. Therefore, the duration of the twilight
depends on how long the sun needs to cross these 12°, and this (mainly)
depends from the angle the sun circle is tilted towards the planet's
"disc". This angle is steep (orthogonal to the planet's disc) at the
equator. The further away from the equator the observer is, the flatter
the angle becomes, and there are Northern regions in which not the whole
twilight cycle is completed. This is the case for all latitudes North of
90°-Axis-12°=54.561°.

"To some extent the angle also depends from the day of year: It is at
the equinoxes that the angle is steepest for any latitude, and on the
Northern hemisphere the summer solstice is flattest (also the winter
solstice is flatter than at the equinoxes, but not so flat as at the
summer solstice). However, the differences along a year are short and
extend over some minutes only".


Now it all a matter of finding honorable people with enough
intelligence to know that the daylight/darkness cycle and the fact the
Earth is round and rotating to explain why different latitudes
experience different twilight lengths or,more precisely,why a location
at the equator is transiting through the circle of illumination at
1037.5 miles per hour while at 60 degrees lat North/South,the
rotational speed is 800 miles per hour.

Are you surprised that the proof for daily rotation through 360
degrees based on cause and effect is far more interesting than the
false conclusion Flamsteed used by way of circumpolar motion of the
constellations ?.

  #4  
Old March 31st 10, 02:20 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur,sci.physics
palsing[_2_]
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Posts: 3,068
Default The first step for mankind in a long time

On Mar 30, 11:35*am, oriel36 wrote:

...I attempt to reposition astronomy as an exercise
in interpretation of physical effects allied with a comprehension of
the planetary dynamics behind the effect,something most people simply
leave behind as unimportant or trivial.


Could it be that, perhaps, it is because it IS trivial?

... but people everywhere will gain more
satisfaction ,at least in this era where rapid *air travel between
latitudes is possible,that the reason why darkness descends rapidly at
the equator depends on the equatorial speed there while longer
twilights further North and South are due to slower rotational speeds
as those locations take longer to pass through the circle of
illumination which separates daylight from darkness or
astronomically,solar radiation from the orbital shadow of the Earth..


Again, you are incapable of learning anything new, and are simply
thick as a brick...

Are you surprised that the proof for daily rotation through 360
degrees based on cause and effect is far more interesting than the
false conclusion Flamsteed used by way of circumpolar motion of the
constellations ?.


You have a lot to learn about what constitutes a "proof", and your
pretty pictures or so-called "intuitive intelligence" isn't it...

  #5  
Old March 31st 10, 04:24 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Posts: 7,018
Default The first step for mankind in a long time

On Mar 30, 12:35*pm, oriel36 wrote:

No need to pull sci.physics into the thread,the people there have
other things going on and it adds nothing to sci.astro.amateur.


Something I agree with totally.

I know I can't really persuade you that Newton's empiricism is the
"one true way" and your geometry and intuition are not, in fact,
leading you to the truth.

There would have to be a willingness on your part to accept that you
may be wrong, and I would have to fully address your concerns. I don't
really know what some of your concerns are, even though I have tried
to understand your posts to a limited extent.

If the high precision to which the motions of the planets are
predicted, and especially, if the predictions by which Neptune was
found - based on Newton's theory of gravity, his reduction of the
motions of the planets to inverse-square gravity plus empirically-
derived laws of mechanics - don't convince you that Newton _was_
right, I am at a loss as to what would.

But it is because we have all around us in our technology - such as
the computer you use to post to this forum - proof that science today,
with its empiricism and with its advanced mathematics, *is* on the
right track, that your advocacy of switching horses to a very
different way of thinking falls on deaf ears.

For your efforts to find "brave souls" to be more than an exercise in
frustration for you, you will need to do a great deal of rethinking -
and learning.

John Savard
  #6  
Old March 31st 10, 02:06 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur,sci.physics
oriel36[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,478
Default The first step for mankind in a long time

On Mar 30, 6:50*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:

Sam,unfortunately I have to leapfrog the two nuisances and re-submit
the important point in order to ask why an entire race of people
choose a half baked geocentric solution based on the apparent angle
and motion of the Sun as it hits the horizon when the easily
understood cause and effect of daily rotation explains that we
experience the daylight/darkness cycle to the fact that the Earth is
rotating and latitudinal differences in twilight due to the fact that
the Earth is round and has known rotational speeds for each latitude
away from the maximum equatorial speed of 1037.5 miles per hour and an
entire rotation of the equatorial circumference in 24 hours.On second
thoughts I already technically know why people abandon the cause and
effect of latitudinal twilight variations as an extension of the
daylight/darkness cycle and as an affirmation that the Earth is round
and rotating but still can't get my head around the unintelligent
geocentric alternative in an era where the answer can be viewed from
space


"Civil Twilight is defined as the sun being 6 degrees below the horizon,
Nautical Twilight as 12 degrees Therefore, the duration of the twilight
depends on how long the sun needs to cross these 12 degrees, and this (mainly)
depends from the angle the sun circle is tilted towards the planet's
"disc". This angle is steep (orthogonal to the planet's disc) at the
equator. The further away from the equator the observer is, the flatter
the angle becomes, and there are Northern regions in which not the whole
twilight cycle is completed."



I am truly astounded that I can find nobody who enjoys the way things
turned out insofar as watching the empirical approach to astronomy
evolve is something else and especially as it give rise to the
modelling/predictive agendas and a speculative binge that has
tributaries running to climate,modelling the financial chaos which
sent have the Western world into penury and even after science is
barely looked on presently as a going concern,here we have these LHC
guys merrily oblivious to the Ra/Dec structure which is driving it
all.

I read recently about the subprime lending debacle and the
mathematical modelling that went on -

"In the world of finance, too many quants see only the numbers before
them and forget about the concrete reality the figures are supposed to
represent. They think they can model just a few years' worth of data
and come up with probabilities for things that may happen only once
every 10,000 years. Then people invest on the basis of those
probabilities, without stopping to wonder whether the numbers make any
sense at all."

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/maga...urrentPage=all

The parent ideology which give rise to tributaries such as the recent
financial meltdown and the antecedent speculative binge is many times
more interesting and contains stories within stories,how the longitude
problem was resolved by watches as opposed to other methods including
Flamsteed's,the original arguments for planetary dynamics and the
empirical mutations that hijacked them,the complete abandonment of
geometric and physical considerations a hundred years ago,the
emergence of modern imaging and data and the conceptual gridlock that
exists today are any one of a number of stories all waiting for able
astronomical interpreters.

The proof for daily rotation through 360 degrees in 24 hours relies on
cause/effect and known latitudinal speeds,it is presented so as not to
show that you are wrong or limited in your understanding but simply it
is what it is and takes no real effort to understand,that you do have
difficulties along with everyone else reflects a situation that should
not exist.


  #7  
Old March 31st 10, 02:42 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur,sci.physics
Sam Wormley[_2_]
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Posts: 3,966
Default The first step for mankind in a long time

On 3/31/10 8:06 AM, oriel36 wrote:
Sam,unfortunately I have to leapfrog the two nuisances and re-submit
the important point in order to ask why an entire race of people
choose a half baked geocentric solution based on the apparent angle
and motion of the Sun as it hits the horizon when the easily
understood cause and effect of daily rotation...


I think any misunderstanding is entirely your own Gerald.
http://janus.astro.umd.edu/SolarSystems/
  #8  
Old March 31st 10, 05:14 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur,sci.physics
oriel36[_2_]
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Posts: 8,478
Default The first step for mankind in a long time

On Mar 31, 2:42*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
On 3/31/10 8:06 AM, oriel36 wrote:

Sam,unfortunately I have to leapfrog the two nuisances and re-submit
the important point in order to ask why an entire race of people
choose a half baked geocentric solution based on the apparent angle
and motion of the Sun as it hits the horizon when the easily
understood cause and effect of daily rotation...


* *I think any misunderstanding is entirely your own Gerald.
* * *http://janus.astro.umd.edu/SolarSystems/


There you go,the most basic extension to the daylight/darkness
cycle,in this case latitudinal variations in twilight length due to
the fact that the Earth is both round and rotating and consequently
slower rotation speeds correlate to longer twilights depending on
latitude and there is not a single place in the entire internet where
this is explained properly using the known rotational speeds for each
given latitude.

I will say it again,the story of how we arrived at this particular
situation in history where a basic explanation for a terrestrial
effect such as twilight is shunned for an entirely geocentric
explanation is quite something else if not spectacular in all the
wrong ways and allows me to provide a commentary of sorts .The core
modelling/predictive agenda on which the present highly speculative
empirical agendas are based,and they now roam over many aspects of
human endeavor from finance to geology to climate and so on,is an
elaborate scheme that empiricists never understood themselves insofar
as witnessing the attempt 100 years ago to deal with absolute/relative
time,space and motion as they thought Isaac meant it,they were
hopelessly lost in the way Newton treated the genuine astronomical
insights and especially the main argument Copernicus used to the
Earth's orbital motion.

This is not self-congratulation but I wish you could see things from
the wider perspective and the astonishing inaction to a huge human
tragedy that is for the most part self-inflicted and can be traced to
a few individuals in the late 17th century, for all the tributaries of
prediction/modelling which began when Isaac attempted to fit the
orbital motion of the Earth into the calendar based right ascension
and so began the linkage between 'predictions' and solar system
modelling now reach into all areas of existence with the same
devastating effect.

Coming to a full picture,at least in respect to the distortions acting
on genuine astronomical insights,is quite an experience and involves
stories within stories,some technical and others just turning known
astronomical innovators as puppets but ultimately it diminishes our
race and human achievement.



  #9  
Old March 31st 10, 05:32 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur,sci.physics
palsing[_2_]
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Posts: 3,068
Default The first step for mankind in a long time

On Mar 31, 9:14*am, oriel36 wrote:

...and there is not a single place in the entire internet where
this is explained properly using the known rotational speeds for each
given latitude.


What you mean to say is that there is not a single place on the
internet that explains it the way YOU want to see it explained. Of
course, this is only because you are completely and utterly wrong.

I will say it again,the story of how we arrived at this particular
situation in history where a basic explanation for a terrestrial
effect such as twilight *is shunned for an entirely geocentric
explanation is quite something else if not spectacular in all the
wrong ways and allows me to provide a commentary of sorts .


In other words, you live in your own little fantasy world, surrounded
by pretty pictures, still unable to learn anything new.

- The Nuisance
 




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