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Time from Big Dipper/Polaris positions?



 
 
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  #111  
Old July 21st 14, 12:33 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Default Time from Big Dipper/Polaris positions?

On Sunday, July 20, 2014 2:41:39 AM UTC-7, oriel36 wrote:

Anyone,and I mean anyone, can easily identify the motion of Venus and Mercury as they move out from behind the Sun and in the opposite direction to the annual motion of the background stars and then move to their widest point before swinging back in front of the central Sun.


Anyone, and I mean anyone, can place 2 sticks in the ground and line them up on any bright star of their choosing (except for the Sun, it doesn't work using the Sun), and then start their stopwatch and easily measure the amount of time that passes until they line up once again on that same star, which will be 23 56 04 every time, pick any star.

What could this possibly mean? Why does this work for virtually any star in the sky that is a reasonable distance from either pole, except for the Sun?
  #112  
Old July 21st 14, 08:15 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default Time from Big Dipper/Polaris positions?

On Monday, July 21, 2014 12:33:26 AM UTC+1, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, July 20, 2014 2:41:39 AM UTC-7, oriel36 wrote:



Anyone,and I mean anyone, can easily identify the motion of Venus and Mercury as they move out from behind the Sun and in the opposite direction to the annual motion of the background stars and then move to their widest point before swinging back in front of the central Sun.




Anyone, and I mean anyone, can place 2 sticks in the ground and line them up on any bright star of their choosing (except for the Sun, it doesn't work using the Sun), and then start their stopwatch and easily measure the amount of time that passes until they line up once again on that same star, which will be 23 56 04 every time, pick any star.



The only possible use of a foreground reference and for the annual motion of the stars (no stellar circumpolar element) is the central Sun itself as the stars move along the orbital plane from left to right of the Sun and go from twilight stars as they enter the Sun's glare and exit that glare later as dawn stars. The same with the inner planets as Venus goes from a twilight planet to a dawn planet as it passes in front of the Sun -

https://dague.net/wp-content/uploads...nus-phase1.jpg

The great astronomers had tracked the motion of the planets and the Sun through the field of the background stars which in itself is problematic but with the creation of the equatorial coordinate system these motions got bound up in a rotating celestial sphere known as RA/Dec so that even the framework for heliocentricity was lost for the sake of the timekeeping convenience which predicts positions and events within a celestial sphere universe. I don't expect anyone to know the difference between the original notion of the background stars without that giddy stellar circumpolar framework as opposed to the more productive framework which focuses attention on the central Sun as a foreground reference for the orbital motion of the Earth using the annual motion of the stars as a moving reference.




What could this possibly mean? Why does this work for virtually any star in the sky that is a reasonable distance from either pole, except for the Sun?


It means that people are not familiar with the annual motion of the stars nor the event which defines the Earth's orbital position in space whereby an extra 24 hours of orbital motion is seen to return the Earth to roughly the same position in space after 4 annual circuits of 365 days/rotations. The original determination was using the brightest star in the celestial arena but its observational relevance has since been lost although its impact as February 29th has not.


In truth, the amazing graphic for me is enchanting and it is one of those things where I can enjoy the spectacle privately as represents a 21st century view of the inner planets,their retrogrades and what they represent as a grandstand view of their motions -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

The annual motion of the stars due to the orbital motion of the Earth itself makes it a delight to behold hence I have every reason to praise these new tools as appreciation of these things would be exceptionally difficult if near impossible otherwise.

I will leave you with your two sticks and a clockwork solar system least you attempt another meaningless slanging match ,as far as I am concerned what you consider a hobby is on the same level as trainspotting and I have no problem whatsoever with that as long as you know you inhabit a celestial sphere universe for for no human mind -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V3rmDG5J8A

I too can enjoy the spectacle but also know there is another great motion of the stars which is swamped by the daily motion and it is then you enter into the realm of our astronomical ancestors.




  #113  
Old July 21st 14, 09:16 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Lord Androcles[_3_]
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Default Time from Big Dipper/Polaris positions?



"oriel36" wrote in message
...

On Monday, July 21, 2014 12:33:26 AM UTC+1, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, July 20, 2014 2:41:39 AM UTC-7, oriel36 wrote:



Anyone,and I mean anyone, can easily identify the motion of Venus and
Mercury as they move out from behind the Sun and in the opposite
direction to the annual motion of the background stars and then move to
their widest point before swinging back in front of the central Sun.




Anyone, and I mean anyone, can place 2 sticks in the ground and line them
up on any bright star of their choosing (except for the Sun, it doesn't
work using the Sun), and then start their stopwatch and easily measure the
amount of time that passes until they line up once again on that same
star, which will be 23 56 04 every time, pick any star.



The only possible use
========================================
What part of "anyone can place 2 sticks in the ground and line them up on
any bright star " did you not understand, thug?
You can even crack a window open, peep through the gap and line up on your
neighbour's roof and note when a star crosses that line. It will cross it
again in 23 56 04 so you don't need to buy any sticks, although the best way
is get a telescope on a tripod and don't move it. But you don't have a
telescope, do you?

-- The Reverend Lord Androcles, Archbishop of Ballistic Light.
(H. God Wilson thinks he's the God of Ballistic Light and can tell it what
to do.)

  #114  
Old July 21st 14, 02:12 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Default Time from Big Dipper/Polaris positions?

oriel36 wrote:
These celestial sphere nuisances constitute a disruptive bunch for
although the use of a system based on timekeeping averages spread across
the 1461 day system may be useful for the astronomical version of
trainspotting by magnification hobbyists it disrupts appreciation of the
great insights of astronomy including the new one which partitions
retrograde resolution between inner and outer planets.

Anyone,and I mean anyone, can easily identify the motion of Venus and
Mercury as they move out from behind the Sun and in the opposite
direction to the annual motion of the background stars and then move to
their widest point before swinging back in front of the central Sun.


Have you ever seen Mercury with your own eyes?
Copernicus never did.
Mercury is difficult to see unless you know where to look. How do you know
where to look - by predictions made using Newton's equations.
You certainly never saw the events in the predictive video below from
Ireland since Mercury was mostly below your horizon at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

http://www.masil-astro-imaging.com/S...age%20flat.jpg

The annual motion of the stars seen in the graphic along the ecliptic
plane and due solely to the orbital motion of the Earth does away with
the need and use of the Equatorial coordinate system for interpretative
purposes and it is impossible,I repeat, impossible to appreciate the
resolution of inner planetary retrogrades without letting go of celestial
sphere ideologies on which wishful thinking and exploitation has gone on for so long.

It doesn't matter if the graphics and sequential imaging only makes sense
to me or that it is a wonderful addition to the retrograde resolutions of
the outer planets due mostly to the faster orbital motion of the Earth,
The breathtaking grandstand view we have of Venus as it travels around
the Sun and sometimes in the opposition direction to the annual motion of
the background stars and then in the direction of the same stars along
the ecliptic plane is there for all to enjoy.

It is too early to speak of dishonoring the internet as the educational
tool that it is but I have these guys spraying graffiti each time I post
whereas it is much easier just to construct the narrative in a dedicated
way from its beginnings here in this forum much like the beginnings of
computers,planes,cars ect were constructed in garages or in an informal
atmosphere known to all frontier spirits.

  #115  
Old July 21st 14, 03:46 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default Time from Big Dipper/Polaris positions?

On Monday, July 21, 2014 2:12:59 PM UTC+1, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:

These celestial sphere nuisances constitute a disruptive bunch for


although the use of a system based on timekeeping averages spread across


the 1461 day system may be useful for the astronomical version of


trainspotting by magnification hobbyists it disrupts appreciation of the


great insights of astronomy including the new one which partitions


retrograde resolution between inner and outer planets.




Anyone,and I mean anyone, can easily identify the motion of Venus and


Mercury as they move out from behind the Sun and in the opposite


direction to the annual motion of the background stars and then move to


their widest point before swinging back in front of the central Sun.






Have you ever seen Mercury with your own eyes?

Copernicus never did.



"Of all things visible, the highest is the heaven of the fixed stars. This, I see, is doubted by nobody. But the ancient philosophers wanted to arrange the planets in accordance with the duration of the revolutions. Their principle assumes that of objects moving equally fast, those farther away seem to travel more slowly, as is proved in Euclid's Optics. The moon revolves in the shortest period of time because, in their opinion, it runs on the smallest circle as the nearest to the earth. The highest planet, on the other hand, is Saturn, which completes the biggest circuit in the longest time. Below it is Jupiter, followed by Mars.
With regard to Venus and Mercury, however, differences of opinion are found.. For, these planets do not pass through every elongation from the sun, as the other planets do. Hence Venus and Mercury are located above the sun by some authorities, like Plato's Timaeus (38 D), but below the sun by others, like Ptolemy (Syntaxis, IX, 1) and many of the modems. Al-Bitruji places Venus above the sun, and Mercury below it. " Copernicus, De Revolutionibus

http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars...opernicus.html


Instead of pulling you up for trying to rewrite the work of astronomers,the issue is that those great men considered the Sun's motion through the Zodiac between Mars and the inner planets however 21st century tools shift the emphasis to the annual motions of the stars along the orbital plane by keeping the Sun pinned to the center of all observations and motions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

It would have been exceptionally difficult for astronomers in other eras including an era before the visual side of the internet emerged to make sense of all the motions that comprise that of the other planets and our own but now it is fairly easy .

What you see written by Copernicus is known as the 'Periodic times' argument where the Earth replaced the Sun's position and apparent motion -

" The 10th argument,taken from the periodic times, is as follows; the apparent movement of the Sun has 365 days which is the mean measure between Venus' period of 225 days and Mars' period of 687 days.Therefore does not the nature of things shout out loud that the circuits in which those 365 days are taken up has a mean position between the circuits of Mars and Venus around the Sun and thus this is not the circuit of the Sun around the Earth -for none of the primary planets has its orbit arranged around the Earth,but the circuit of the Earth around the resting Sun,just as the other planets,namely Mars and Venus,complete their own periods by running around the Sun." Kepler

Enjoy the SkyTel graphic as an educational tool which makes the grandstand view of Venus and its phases such a joy to behold by resolving the apparent retrograde motion of that planet as it moves against the direction of the background stars,stops and then swings in front of the Sun.



  #116  
Old July 21st 14, 06:03 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Default Time from Big Dipper/Polaris positions?

On Monday, July 21, 2014 12:33:26 AM UTC+1, palsing wrote:

Anyone, and I mean anyone, can place 2 sticks in the ground and line them up on any bright star of their choosing (except for the Sun, it doesn't work using the Sun), and then start their stopwatch and easily measure the amount of time that passes until they line up once again on that same star, which will be 23 56 04 every time, pick any star.


The only possible use of a foreground reference and for the annual motion of the stars (no stellar circumpolar element) is the central Sun itself as the stars move along the orbital plane from left to right of the Sun


Tell us, O Great One, just how fast, on a daily basis, do those stars move along the orbital plane from left to right of the Sun? Hmmmmm?

If you were to borrow my 2 sticks and line them up on Sirius, for example, and then looked again after 24 hours, you would find that Sirius would once again line up after 23 56 04, but of course after 24 hours it would be to the right of that location. And each and every subsequent night it would again be 3 minutes and 56 seconds to the right of its location of the previous night, and the same thing would be true of any other star in the sky, day after day... and after a year it would be right back where it was.

The actual DISTANCE between tonight's location and tomorrow night's location would be greatest for stars right on the celestial equator and smallest for stars near the poles, but the TIMING would be an identical 3 minutes and 56 seconds... do you see a pattern here?
  #117  
Old July 21st 14, 09:20 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default Time from Big Dipper/Polaris positions?

On Monday, July 21, 2014 6:03:38 PM UTC+1, palsing wrote:
On Monday, July 21, 2014 12:33:26 AM UTC+1, palsing wrote:




Anyone, and I mean anyone, can place 2 sticks in the ground and line them up on any bright star of their choosing (except for the Sun, it doesn't work using the Sun), and then start their stopwatch and easily measure the amount of time that passes until they line up once again on that same star, which will be 23 56 04 every time, pick any star.




The only possible use of a foreground reference and for the annual motion of the stars (no stellar circumpolar element) is the central Sun itself as the stars move along the orbital plane from left to right of the Sun




Tell us, O Great One, just how fast, on a daily basis, do those stars move along the orbital plane from left to right of the Sun? Hmmmmm?


It is clear you do not have a feel for what is going on even with the graphical tools to ease any difficulty. The annual motion of the stars from left to right of the central Sun is due to the orbital motion of the Earth through space -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ

Stellar circumpolar motion swamps this annual passage of the stars behind the Sun and its glare but nobody should doubt it is there and captured nicely in the SkyTel graphic -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A





If you were to borrow my 2 sticks and line them up on Sirius, for example, and then looked again after 24 hours, you would find that Sirius would once again line up after 23 56 04, but of course after 24 hours it would be to the right of that location. And each and every subsequent night it would again be 3 minutes and 56 seconds to the right of its location of the previous night, and the same thing would be true of any other star in the sky, day after day... and after a year it would be right back where it was.


I leave you to play with your sticks and the homocentric conclusion but for everyone else they can join me in the 21st century and enjoy the ability to gauge the annual passage of the stars into the Sun's glare at twilight as the Earth moves through space and exit it after a period of absence at dawn as our planet's orbital motion puts it far enough to one side of the Sun's glare where the star can be seen.

The resolution of inner planetary retrogrades based on the same principle as the planets swings out from behind the Sun to their widest point and then back in front of the Sun at twilight where the inner planets are lost in the glare of the central Sun only to appear at dawn as they move in the annual direction of the background stars or what amounts to the same thing,the direction of the Earth's annual motion.

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg






The actual DISTANCE between tonight's location and tomorrow night's location would be greatest for stars right on the celestial equator and smallest for stars near the poles, but the TIMING would be an identical 3 minutes and 56 seconds... do you see a pattern here?


Your are talking a celestial sphere universe and a clockwork solar system created in the late 17th century but with today's tools those dour ideologies are obliterated and the new and thrilling insights are emerging without fuss or fanfare.

I wonder how many can put the two YouTube graphics together to create a wonderful astronomical narrative which goes in opposite directions towards a foundation for human timekeeping on one hand and a spectacular way to resolve inner planetary retrogrades on the other.

The only Great One is God and the love of God. For all the celebrity out there and all outward talents with a price to it ,isn't it nice to know that something like this can be done for the love of it alone hence 'amateur'.


  #118  
Old July 22nd 14, 08:59 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default Time from Big Dipper/Polaris positions?

There are many loose ends to tie up in order to introduce the perspective at the most interesting astronomical time of the day when the central Sun is just out of sight and the planets and stars make themselves known to our view. At these star parties while telescopes are being set up for magnification, it gives a chance to turn victims of a rotating celestial sphere hobby into students who will smile as the annual motion of the stars behind the Sun (really the orbital motion of the Earth around the Sun) is explained to them -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

The apparent stellar circumpolar motion of the stars obscures the annual motion of the stars as they enter the Sun's glare along the plane of the Earth's orbital motion -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ

As long as Venus is visible towards twilight,its orbital position as it swings out from behind the Sun and turns in towards the front of the Sun front left to right as opposed to the observation at dawn when it swings to its widest point and back in behind the Sun

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg


Planets are defined specifically by their wandering motions against the background field of stars and this new and lovely way to look at Venus and Mercury is really suited for star parties as we enjoy the grandstand view of these planet's and their faster and closer motion around the Sun, much more so than the drawn out resolution of outer planetary retrogrades.

No surprise that this new facet of astronomy is received is a hostile way by those who can't extract themselves from the apparent stellar circumpolar motion of the stars and the idea that the Sun moves up and down through this celestial sphere. Again,many loose ends but that shouldn't stop observers from teaching the new narrative by demonstrating it using graphics which condense long term observations.



  #119  
Old July 23rd 14, 08:57 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default Time from Big Dipper/Polaris positions?

The trap with a rotating celestial sphere and RA/Dec system is that there is nowhere out of it hence the difficulties many would have with the line of sight observation which uses the motion of the constellations along the orbital plane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAFvN83NZAc

The ideology based on stellar circumpolar motion completely swamps the observation of the annual motion of the stars along the orbital plane and the crucial line-of-sight motion where the orbital motion of the Earth puts stars in sequence behind the Sun with no stellar circumpolar components such as celestial equator,celestial North pole and so on.

The second surface rotation of the Earth as a function of its orbital motion relies solely on gauging the trajectory of the planet along the orbital plane free and clear of any declination component of the Sun, like the SkyTel graphic indicates, the central Sun is a fixed foreground reference and the motion of the stars do the work of discerning the orbital motion of the Earth and the motions of the other planets along roughly the same line -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

It is an enormous undertaking insofar as the RA/Dec system remains as long as it is recognized as a clockwork creation within the 365/366 day calendar framework with its predictive connotations whereas it is crucial for interpretative astronomy that the references for the annual motion of the Earth using the stars and the central Sun be severed from any stellar circumpolar components.

The reward is that it will make people smile to be outside a mechanical clockwork solar system no matter how useful it is for predictive purposes.
  #120  
Old July 25th 14, 01:14 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default Time from Big Dipper/Polaris positions?

On Monday, July 21, 2014 2:12:59 PM UTC+1, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:

These celestial sphere nuisances constitute a disruptive bunch for


although the use of a system based on timekeeping averages spread across


the 1461 day system may be useful for the astronomical version of


trainspotting by magnification hobbyists it disrupts appreciation of the


great insights of astronomy including the new one which partitions


retrograde resolution between inner and outer planets.




Anyone,and I mean anyone, can easily identify the motion of Venus and


Mercury as they move out from behind the Sun and in the opposite


direction to the annual motion of the background stars and then move to


their widest point before swinging back in front of the central Sun.






Have you ever seen Mercury with your own eyes?

Copernicus never did.



I will answer you through this post Collins because there are a lot of unapologetic maggots out there burrowing holes in astronomy by asserting whatever comes into their heads. Not only did Copernicus and all the other astronomers in antiquity notice the motions of Mercury, they also noticed the inequality of the motions as the planets moved against the background stars.

You see Collins, Copernicus worked on a system where the Sun moved through the constellations whereas the only possible means to resolve inner planetary retrogrades is through the annual motion of the stars behind the central Sun insofar as when the inner planets are moving against the background stars as they emerge from behind the Sun they appear to move faster in their orbits so that when they turn back in front of the Sun and in the direction of the stars (due to the orbital motion of the Earth) they appear to move slower -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A


You fools ,for all your dourness, don't even understand your own system in the attempt to use RA/Dec as a common denominator for assessing planetary motions -

"That the fixed stars being at rest, the periodic times of the five
primary planets, and (whether of the sun about the earth, or) of the
earth about the sun, are in the sesquiplicate proportion of their mean
distances from the sun.This proportion, first observed by Kepler, is now received by all astronomers; for the periodic times are the same, and the dimensions of the orbits are the same, whether the sun revolves about the earth, or the earth about the sun." Newton

You all talk about 'predictions' and make a big show before the wider population but for all your propaganda, you turn out to be cheats who barely understand the basis of the 'predictive power' which has obscured the working language of astronomy and the perspectives which make it such an enjoyable experience.

 




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