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...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!
Borderline ) writes:
On May 20, 11:42 am, (Andre Lieven) wrote: It shows up their knee jerk anti gov't ideology as being simple lunacy. Andre I am sure that you are aware since you post some really good stuff "elsewhere" Naval wise that USNI PRoceedings has had some very very good information on this...including for full members some interviews with some of the USCG officers who were a part of the "fiasco". I've heard about this, but, as we've been travelling so much the last three years, I cancelled all of magazine subs, because I just didn't have the time, and not a few went adrift when we were away. It truly is a fiasco. There are problems from the government end, but LM just really shafted the USCG...the Commandant is just about beside himself on this. Yeah, its pretty amazing. One might say that the USN and USCG might suggest to their US suppliers that the USN and USCG might not be averse to buying ships and boats from overseas. That might put a scare up the " more efficient private businesses ". I seem to recall that there aren't as many issues with the Japanese AEGIS ships... Or, Spanish ones... At the very least, heads at the firms ought to roll, and lawsuits to recover the money made waste by said firms ought to happen. But, with the example that the present White House sets, well, the firms will likely say " hey, we were no worse than our clients... ". Feh. Did anyone try to claim that US business isn't corrupt ? Well, not so much Ed's Plumbing. But, from Halliburton on down... Feh, again. Andre |
#2
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...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!
On May 20, 10:28 pm, (Andre Lieven) wrote:
Feh. Did anyone try to claim that US business isn't corrupt ? Well, not so much Ed's Plumbing. But, from Halliburton on down... Feh, again. Andre I've been a member of USNI since 17, a full member since 21 and a lifer since 25. getting my money's worth as they say. It is a great mag...the online part to members is nice. The problem with the Defense contractors and even space contractors is as you suggest...not only is their internal corruption in it, but the pool is so small right now that the only other effort is to go "overseas" and so far that is a real downer for the Congress. So the contractors really "know" that they have the government...and the government plays along because it is "no contractor" left behind, most of the senior contractors are the 20 and out group, and the incest becomes really high. the amazing thing is that the USCG got a good screwing from Lockmart even by DoD standards. Unlike the USN which has a lot of people "sitting around" the USCG is very small...it is a lot like the Marines. IE in the Marines every person is a rifleman...in the USCG every person is a sailor. There are just not a lot of them so they all "sail"...and LM took really good advantage of that. The administration really put the screws to some USCG officers who tried to say "problems coming" (Dick Cheney lead the way) but well now whats a 100 million dollars? BTW have you noticed the number of "reliefs for cause" that Mr. Gates is doing? It actually is quite stunning. All the way from the skipper of a supercarrier to the Skipper of the USS Constitution to the head Nurse at a Naval Hospital. He is chopping on the average 8 O-6's a week.. fascinating. Robert |
#3
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...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!
Borderline ) writes:
On May 20, 10:28 pm, (Andre Lieven) wrote: Feh. Did anyone try to claim that US business isn't corrupt ? Well, not so much Ed's Plumbing. But, from Halliburton on down... Feh, again. Andre I've been a member of USNI since 17, a full member since 21 and a lifer since 25. getting my money's worth as they say. It is a great mag...the online part to members is nice. IIRC, the longer term deals were not available outside of the US, and, as I am in Canada, so that goes... The problem with the Defense contractors and even space contractors is as you suggest...not only is their internal corruption in it, but the pool is so small right now that the only other effort is to go "overseas" and so far that is a real downer for the Congress. Well, that is a move that would be fully consistant with all the off shoring going on... So the contractors really "know" that they have the government...and the government plays along because it is "no contractor" left behind, most of the senior contractors are the 20 and out group, and the incest becomes really high. Sure, next to that, regular welfare fraud is small potatoes. neither is good, but the " corporate welfare bums " should get the attention commensurate with the amounts of $$$ they loot... the amazing thing is that the USCG got a good screwing from Lockmart even by DoD standards. Unlike the USN which has a lot of people "sitting around" the USCG is very small...it is a lot like the Marines. IE in the Marines every person is a rifleman...in the USCG every person is a sailor. There are just not a lot of them so they all "sail"...and LM took really good advantage of that. Yep. The administration really put the screws to some USCG officers who tried to say "problems coming" (Dick Cheney lead the way) but well now whats a 100 million dollars? BTW have you noticed the number of "reliefs for cause" that Mr. Gates is doing? No. We've been rather busy out here, as of late... :-) It actually is quite stunning. All the way from the skipper of a supercarrier to the Skipper of the USS Constitution to the head Nurse at a Naval Hospital. He is chopping on the average 8 O-6's a week.. Wow. fascinating. This Iraq mess is really messing up most of the US uniformed forces... Andre |
#4
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...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!
In article ,
Andre Lieven wrote: Yeah, its pretty amazing. One might say that the USN and USCG might suggest to their US suppliers that the USN and USCG might not be averse to buying ships and boats from overseas. That might put a scare up the " more efficient private businesses ". If you want efficiency, I'm afraid you have to look elsewhere than the government's captive design bureaus. Suitable companies *do* exist within the US; the trouble is that they're not "qualified suppliers", and also that they're typically averse to contracts where the paperwork tonnage exceeds the vessel tonnage (which might not be an issue with the USCG but certainly is with the USN). The current situation among defence/space contractors really is mostly the government's own stupid fault. It's in the nature of the larger and more established firms in a field to merge into still bigger ones, especially when business is bad. The way you prevent this from producing monopolies or oligopolies is to keep the door open to aspiring newcomers -- both by going easy on the paperwork and the "qualified supplier" rules, and by making sure that some of the work comes in packages of suitable sizes (the one-big-contract-every-ten-years syndrome guarantees steady shrinkage of the contractor pool, since it's naturally politically impossible to take any sort of perceived risk with such megacontracts). A strenuous effort to preserve competition at all levels, preferably *including* full production, also helps: "you can have one contract for the price of two, or two for the price of two". Much though I hate to say it :-), the current mess is *not* the fault of the current White House. The previous one, and the one before that, and also the two or three before that, were just as inattentive about this. (The consolidation of established firms has been more conspicuous in the last 10-15 years, but it was happening long before that. In 1961, the RFP for the Apollo CSM -- very much a qualified-suppliers-only affair -- went to *fourteen* companies.) And the vultures are now coming home to roost. -- spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. | |
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...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!
On May 20, 11:40 pm, (Andre Lieven) wrote:
Andre. this is a double cycle for me. Good post I will get back to it, but it might be 12 or so more hours...take care Robert |
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...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!
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#7
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...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!
Much though I hate to say it :-), the current mess is *not* the fault of
the current White House. The previous one, and the one before that, and also the two or three before that, were just as inattentive about this. It wasn't inattention, it was deliberate policy. At least, that's how I remember it. (remember the debates about "is there enough shipbuilding business to support N shipbuilders?" in the 90's). |
#8
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...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!
Borderline ) writes:
On May 20, 11:40 pm, (Andre Lieven) wrote: Andre. this is a double cycle for me. Good post I will get back to it, but it might be 12 or so more hours...take care S'OK. Get some rest. After tomorrow morning, I'll likely be offline for a week, due to travel. Andre |
#9
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...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!
In article ,
Jim Kingdon wrote: Much though I hate to say it :-), the current mess is *not* the fault of the current White House. The previous one, and the one before that, and also the two or three before that, were just as inattentive about this. It wasn't inattention, it was deliberate policy. At least, that's how I remember it. (remember the debates about "is there enough shipbuilding business to support N shipbuilders?" in the 90's). I would still call it inattention, because the long-term way to deal with such a situation is to encourage newer, more efficient entrants, not to worry about whether the incumbents should merge or not. A singleminded focus on mergers and consolidation among the incumbents is precisely the mistake that was made. Wrong *issue*, not wrong *answer*. -- spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. | |
#10
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...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!
Borderline wrote: I've been a member of USNI since 17, a full member since 21 and a lifer since 25. getting my money's worth as they say. It is a great mag...the online part to members is nice. I only subscribed to it for two years, but it really is a top-notch magazine. Anyone who is or was in the Navy (I wasn't) would find a subscription to it almost essential, I would think. Back when I was subscribed just about every paragraph had "From The Sea" in it as the Navy shifted into a post-cold war posture...and they really seemed to hit the ground running on that also. Pat |
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