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...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 21st 07, 04:28 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station
Andre Lieven
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Posts: 261
Default ...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!

Borderline ) writes:
On May 20, 11:42 am, (Andre Lieven) wrote:

It shows up their knee jerk anti gov't ideology as being simple lunacy.

Andre


I am sure that you are aware since you post some really good stuff
"elsewhere" Naval wise that USNI PRoceedings has had some very very
good information on this...including for full members some interviews
with some of the USCG officers who were a part of the "fiasco".


I've heard about this, but, as we've been travelling so much the last
three years, I cancelled all of magazine subs, because I just didn't
have the time, and not a few went adrift when we were away.

It truly is a fiasco. There are problems from the government end, but
LM just really shafted the USCG...the Commandant is just about beside
himself on this.


Yeah, its pretty amazing. One might say that the USN and USCG might
suggest to their US suppliers that the USN and USCG might not be
averse to buying ships and boats from overseas.

That might put a scare up the " more efficient private businesses ".
I seem to recall that there aren't as many issues with the Japanese
AEGIS ships... Or, Spanish ones...

At the very least, heads at the firms ought to roll, and lawsuits to
recover the money made waste by said firms ought to happen.

But, with the example that the present White House sets, well, the
firms will likely say " hey, we were no worse than our clients... ".

Feh. Did anyone try to claim that US business isn't corrupt ? Well,
not so much Ed's Plumbing. But, from Halliburton on down... Feh, again.

Andre



  #2  
Old May 21st 07, 04:47 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station
Borderline
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Posts: 426
Default ...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!

On May 20, 10:28 pm, (Andre Lieven) wrote:

Feh. Did anyone try to claim that US business isn't corrupt ? Well,
not so much Ed's Plumbing. But, from Halliburton on down... Feh, again.

Andre


I've been a member of USNI since 17, a full member since 21 and a
lifer since 25. getting my money's worth as they say. It is a great
mag...the online part to members is nice.

The problem with the Defense contractors and even space contractors is
as you suggest...not only is their internal corruption in it, but the
pool is so small right now that the only other effort is to go
"overseas" and so far that is a real downer for the Congress.

So the contractors really "know" that they have the government...and
the government plays along because it is "no contractor" left behind,
most of the senior contractors are the 20 and out group, and the
incest becomes really high.

the amazing thing is that the USCG got a good screwing from Lockmart
even by DoD standards. Unlike the USN which has a lot of people
"sitting around" the USCG is very small...it is a lot like the
Marines. IE in the Marines every person is a rifleman...in the USCG
every person is a sailor. There are just not a lot of them so they all
"sail"...and LM took really good advantage of that.

The administration really put the screws to some USCG officers who
tried to say "problems coming" (Dick Cheney lead the way) but well now
whats a 100 million dollars?

BTW have you noticed the number of "reliefs for cause" that Mr. Gates
is doing?

It actually is quite stunning. All the way from the skipper of a
supercarrier to the Skipper of the USS Constitution to the head Nurse
at a Naval Hospital. He is chopping on the average 8 O-6's a week..

fascinating.

Robert


  #3  
Old May 21st 07, 05:40 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station
Andre Lieven
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Posts: 261
Default ...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!

Borderline ) writes:
On May 20, 10:28 pm, (Andre Lieven) wrote:

Feh. Did anyone try to claim that US business isn't corrupt ? Well,
not so much Ed's Plumbing. But, from Halliburton on down... Feh, again.

Andre


I've been a member of USNI since 17, a full member since 21 and a
lifer since 25. getting my money's worth as they say. It is a great
mag...the online part to members is nice.


IIRC, the longer term deals were not available outside of the US, and,
as I am in Canada, so that goes...

The problem with the Defense contractors and even space contractors is
as you suggest...not only is their internal corruption in it, but the
pool is so small right now that the only other effort is to go
"overseas" and so far that is a real downer for the Congress.


Well, that is a move that would be fully consistant with all the
off shoring going on...

So the contractors really "know" that they have the government...and
the government plays along because it is "no contractor" left behind,
most of the senior contractors are the 20 and out group, and the
incest becomes really high.


Sure, next to that, regular welfare fraud is small potatoes.

neither is good, but the " corporate welfare bums " should get the
attention commensurate with the amounts of $$$ they loot...

the amazing thing is that the USCG got a good screwing from Lockmart
even by DoD standards. Unlike the USN which has a lot of people
"sitting around" the USCG is very small...it is a lot like the
Marines. IE in the Marines every person is a rifleman...in the USCG
every person is a sailor. There are just not a lot of them so they all
"sail"...and LM took really good advantage of that.


Yep.

The administration really put the screws to some USCG officers who
tried to say "problems coming" (Dick Cheney lead the way) but well now
whats a 100 million dollars?

BTW have you noticed the number of "reliefs for cause" that Mr. Gates
is doing?


No. We've been rather busy out here, as of late... :-)

It actually is quite stunning. All the way from the skipper of a
supercarrier to the Skipper of the USS Constitution to the head Nurse
at a Naval Hospital. He is chopping on the average 8 O-6's a week..


Wow.

fascinating.


This Iraq mess is really messing up most of the US uniformed forces...

Andre

  #4  
Old May 21st 07, 07:22 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station
Henry Spencer
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Posts: 2,170
Default ...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!

In article ,
Andre Lieven wrote:
Yeah, its pretty amazing. One might say that the USN and USCG might
suggest to their US suppliers that the USN and USCG might not be
averse to buying ships and boats from overseas.
That might put a scare up the " more efficient private businesses ".


If you want efficiency, I'm afraid you have to look elsewhere than the
government's captive design bureaus. Suitable companies *do* exist within
the US; the trouble is that they're not "qualified suppliers", and also
that they're typically averse to contracts where the paperwork tonnage
exceeds the vessel tonnage (which might not be an issue with the USCG but
certainly is with the USN).

The current situation among defence/space contractors really is mostly the
government's own stupid fault. It's in the nature of the larger and more
established firms in a field to merge into still bigger ones, especially
when business is bad. The way you prevent this from producing monopolies
or oligopolies is to keep the door open to aspiring newcomers -- both by
going easy on the paperwork and the "qualified supplier" rules, and by
making sure that some of the work comes in packages of suitable sizes (the
one-big-contract-every-ten-years syndrome guarantees steady shrinkage of
the contractor pool, since it's naturally politically impossible to take
any sort of perceived risk with such megacontracts). A strenuous effort
to preserve competition at all levels, preferably *including* full
production, also helps: "you can have one contract for the price of two,
or two for the price of two".

Much though I hate to say it :-), the current mess is *not* the fault of
the current White House. The previous one, and the one before that, and
also the two or three before that, were just as inattentive about this.
(The consolidation of established firms has been more conspicuous in the
last 10-15 years, but it was happening long before that. In 1961, the RFP
for the Apollo CSM -- very much a qualified-suppliers-only affair -- went
to *fourteen* companies.) And the vultures are now coming home to roost.
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. |
  #5  
Old May 21st 07, 11:24 AM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station
Borderline
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Posts: 426
Default ...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!

On May 20, 11:40 pm, (Andre Lieven) wrote:
Andre.

this is a double cycle for me. Good post I will get back to it, but
it might be 12 or so more hours...take care

Robert


  #6  
Old May 21st 07, 12:51 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station
Rand Simberg[_1_]
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Posts: 8,311
Default ...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!

On Mon, 21 May 2007 06:22:33 GMT, in a place far, far away,
(Henry Spencer) made the phosphor on my monitor
glow in such a way as to indicate that:

In article ,
Andre Lieven wrote:
Yeah, its pretty amazing. One might say that the USN and USCG might
suggest to their US suppliers that the USN and USCG might not be
averse to buying ships and boats from overseas.
That might put a scare up the " more efficient private businesses ".


If you want efficiency, I'm afraid you have to look elsewhere than the
government's captive design bureaus. Suitable companies *do* exist within
the US; the trouble is that they're not "qualified suppliers", and also
that they're typically averse to contracts where the paperwork tonnage
exceeds the vessel tonnage (which might not be an issue with the USCG but
certainly is with the USN).

The current situation among defence/space contractors really is mostly the
government's own stupid fault. It's in the nature of the larger and more
established firms in a field to merge into still bigger ones, especially
when business is bad.


It's not only in *their* nature, but the government often encourages
it. The Pentagon and Goldin certainly almost forced it in the
nineties. USA, for example, was pretty much a shotgun marriage. And
no one seemed to complain much about ULA, though by any rational
analysis it's in defiance of the Sherman Act.
  #7  
Old May 21st 07, 01:52 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station
Jim Kingdon
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Posts: 185
Default ...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!

Much though I hate to say it :-), the current mess is *not* the fault of
the current White House. The previous one, and the one before that, and
also the two or three before that, were just as inattentive about this.


It wasn't inattention, it was deliberate policy. At least, that's how
I remember it. (remember the debates about "is there enough
shipbuilding business to support N shipbuilders?" in the 90's).
  #8  
Old May 21st 07, 03:58 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station
Andre Lieven
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Posts: 261
Default ...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!

Borderline ) writes:
On May 20, 11:40 pm, (Andre Lieven) wrote:
Andre.

this is a double cycle for me. Good post I will get back to it, but
it might be 12 or so more hours...take care


S'OK. Get some rest. After tomorrow morning, I'll likely be offline
for a week, due to travel.

Andre


  #9  
Old May 21st 07, 06:58 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station
Henry Spencer
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Posts: 2,170
Default ...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!

In article ,
Jim Kingdon wrote:
Much though I hate to say it :-), the current mess is *not* the fault of
the current White House. The previous one, and the one before that, and
also the two or three before that, were just as inattentive about this.


It wasn't inattention, it was deliberate policy. At least, that's how
I remember it. (remember the debates about "is there enough
shipbuilding business to support N shipbuilders?" in the 90's).


I would still call it inattention, because the long-term way to deal with
such a situation is to encourage newer, more efficient entrants, not to
worry about whether the incumbents should merge or not. A singleminded
focus on mergers and consolidation among the incumbents is precisely the
mistake that was made. Wrong *issue*, not wrong *answer*.
--
spsystems.net is temporarily off the air; | Henry Spencer
mail to henry at zoo.utoronto.ca instead. |
  #10  
Old May 21st 07, 07:33 PM posted to sci.space.history,sci.space.policy,sci.space.station
Pat Flannery
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Posts: 18,465
Default ...Lockheed Ruins Eight 123' Coast Guard Cutters!



Borderline wrote:
I've been a member of USNI since 17, a full member since 21 and a
lifer since 25. getting my money's worth as they say. It is a great
mag...the online part to members is nice.

I only subscribed to it for two years, but it really is a top-notch
magazine.
Anyone who is or was in the Navy (I wasn't) would find a subscription to
it almost essential, I would think.
Back when I was subscribed just about every paragraph had "From The Sea"
in it as the Navy shifted into a post-cold war posture...and they really
seemed to hit the ground running on that also.

Pat
 




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