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Neutrinos recorded travelling faster than speed of light!
In article ,
Yousuf Khan writes: The three forms of neutrinos: electron neutrino, muon neutrino, and tau neutrino. They might all be massless. I don't think "massless" is consistent with neutrino oscillation, which has been observed in multiple experiments. The effect of the l'Aquila earthquake was observed in the data and taken into account (Fig 7). The shift was several cm. This was a very difficult measurement. I was wondering whether relativistic corrections in the clock rates were done properly, but I expect if something such as that were grossly wrong, one of the 174(!) investigators would have spotted it. (I don't promise my author count is correct.) The actual preprint is at http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897 -- Help keep our newsgroup healthy; please don't feed the trolls. Steve Willner Phone 617-495-7123 Cambridge, MA 02138 USA |
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Neutrinos recorded travelling faster than speed of light!
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Neutrinos recorded travelling faster than speed of light!
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Neutrinos recorded travelling faster than speed of light!
In sci.astro message , Fri, 23 Sep 2011
12:48:42, Yousuf Khan posted: On 23/09/2011 11:39 AM, Marvin the Martian wrote: On Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:07:24 -0400, Yousuf Khan wrote: On 23/09/2011 5:42 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote: A theory is based on logical reasoning. Just stating "Nothing moves faster than light" is dogma. I give you that stating 'All dogmas will fall' is also a dogma, and probably with the current state of eeeehhhhh mind ... of humanity all dogmas it holds will not fall before the species goes extinct. But that still leaves Einsteins a dogma. Or perhaps you didn't bother to review the experiments that came before Einstein that were leading to the conclusion that Einstein came to? Yousuf Khan If Muons have mass and they are moving at light speed, then the energy of the particle is, according to SR, a singularity. Whoever said muons are travelling at the speed of light? Now if you're referring to the "muon neutrino" then you might be right. The three forms of neutrinos: electron neutrino, muon neutrino, and tau neutrino. They might all be massless. AIUI, neutrino oscillation is considered to prove a mass difference between the oscillating types, implying IIRC that at most one type can be massless. The most likely explanation seems to be an error in the distance travelled or the time taken, perhaps due to imperfect comprehension of exactly what the observed time and distance measures actually mean. To be really convincing, they need to send light along an exactly parallel route next to the neutrino route. Drilling a hole of that length is left as an exercise for the reader. -- (c) John Stockton, near London. Web http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQish topics, acronyms, and links. Correct = 4-line sig. separator as above, a line precisely "-- " (RFC5536/7) Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with "" or " " (RFC5536/7) |
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Neutrinos recorded travelling faster than speed of light!
On Sep 22, 1:04*pm, Yousuf Khan wrote:
There's probably an instrument error responsible for this. * * * * Yousuf Khan *** Particles recorded moving faster than light - CERN | Reutershttp://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/22/science-light-idUSL5E7KM3UU... (Reuters) - An international team of scientists has recorded neutrino particles travelling faster than the speed of light, a spokesman for the researchers said on Thursday -- in what could be a challenge to one of the fundamental rules of physics. Antonio Ereditato, who works at the CERN particle physics centre on the Franco-Swiss border, told Reuters that measurements over three years showed the neutrinos moving 60 nanoseconds quicker than light over a distance of 730 km between Geneva and Gran Sasso, Italy. "We have high confidence in our results. But we need other colleagues to do their tests and confirm them," he said. If confirmed, the discovery would overturn a key part of Albert Einstein's 1905 theory of special relativity, which says that nothing in the universe can travel faster than light. (Reporting by Robert Evans, editing by Tom Miles) There is good reason for skepticism. http://johncostella.webs.com/neutrino-blunder.pdf Jerry |
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Neutrinos recorded travelling faster than speed of light!
On 24/09/2011 9:23 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
I haven't been reading this, nor the other, threads. How does one know that it's the same neutrino? I'm sure they don't know exactly. They are probably just matching up burst events (i.e. matching up peaks on a graph). If an experiment is happening in the LHC, when the reactions occur, it'll produce a burst of neutrinos. They'd know exactly when a reaction occurred at the LHC, and they'd match that up with a burst of detected neutrinos at the neutrino detector. If the peaks are proportional, then they know it comes from the same event. Yousuf Khan |
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Neutrinos recorded travelling faster than speed of light!
On 23/09/2011 6:34 PM, Steve Willner wrote:
In , Yousuf writes: The three forms of neutrinos: electron neutrino, muon neutrino, and tau neutrino. They might all be massless. I don't think "massless" is consistent with neutrino oscillation, which has been observed in multiple experiments. I did say "might be" in the above quote. However, it does segue into an interesting possibility. Let's say that after all of this controversy is done, and a cause is found for the error, and they correct the error. After the correction, neutrinos are once again found to travel at *exactly* the speed of photons. We'll be back to where we started. I suspect that they would've been more happy to see neutrinos that travelled 1:20,000 _slower_ than photons rather than the same amount _faster_. Because the slower neutrinos would be proof that they had mass. But if the correction shows them at exactly the same speed as photons again, then we can't prove neutrino mass. If neutrino mass can't be proven, then what other alternatives are there to explain neutrino oscillation? The effect of the l'Aquila earthquake was observed in the data and taken into account (Fig 7). The shift was several cm. It's not explained where exactly the the GPS measurement beacons are located. I suspect they are located above ground (to get the GPS signal), and the neutrino detector is located several km's down a mineshaft, and the LHC itself is also located several feet below the surface. They probably take an assumed distance from the surface to the bottom of the mine and to the LHC tunnels. A larger displacement might have happened down below ground than is visible on the surface. They should be sending this to the geologists to get to the bottom of. Yousuf Khan |
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Neutrinos recorded travelling faster than speed of light!
Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 23/09/2011 6:34 PM, Steve Willner wrote: In , Yousuf writes: The three forms of neutrinos: electron neutrino, muon neutrino, and tau neutrino. They might all be massless. I don't think "massless" is consistent with neutrino oscillation, which has been observed in multiple experiments. I did say "might be" in the above quote. However, it does segue into an interesting possibility. Let's say that after all of this controversy is done, and a cause is found for the error, and they correct the error. After the correction, neutrinos are once again found to travel at *exactly* the speed of photons. We'll be back to where we started. I suspect that they would've been more happy to see neutrinos that travelled 1:20,000 _slower_ than photons rather than the same amount _faster_. Because the slower neutrinos would be proof that they had mass. But if the correction shows them at exactly the same speed as photons again, then we can't prove neutrino mass. If there are neutrino-antineutrino oscillations, as originally conjectured by Pontecorvo but never observed, then they can be both massless and could also appear supraluminal. But you might have difficulty matching the rest of the quantitative solar neutrino data. Steve |
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Neutrinos recorded travelling faster than speed of light!
In sci.physics Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 23/09/2011 6:34 PM, Steve Willner wrote: In , Yousuf writes: The three forms of neutrinos: electron neutrino, muon neutrino, and tau neutrino. They might all be massless. I don't think "massless" is consistent with neutrino oscillation, which has been observed in multiple experiments. I did say "might be" in the above quote. However, it does segue into an interesting possibility. Let's say that after all of this controversy is done, and a cause is found for the error, and they correct the error. After the correction, neutrinos are once again found to travel at *exactly* the speed of photons. We'll be back to where we started. I suspect that they would've been more happy to see neutrinos that travelled 1:20,000 _slower_ than photons rather than the same amount _faster_. Because the slower neutrinos would be proof that they had mass. But if the correction shows them at exactly the same speed as photons again, then we can't prove neutrino mass. If neutrino mass can't be proven, then what other alternatives are there to explain neutrino oscillation? The effect of the l'Aquila earthquake was observed in the data and taken into account (Fig 7). The shift was several cm. It's not explained where exactly the the GPS measurement beacons are located. I suspect they are located above ground (to get the GPS signal), and the neutrino detector is located several km's down a mineshaft, and the LHC itself is also located several feet below the surface. They probably take an assumed distance from the surface to the bottom of the mine and to the LHC tunnels. A larger displacement might have happened down below ground than is visible on the surface. All the distances are measured. It might help if you would at least skim the paper. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
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