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puzzle; Benzene



 
 
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Old June 6th 11, 10:36 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro,sci.math
PD
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Posts: 1,572
Default puzzle; Benzene

On Jun 6, 2:37*pm, john wrote:
On Jun 6, 9:25*am, Robert Higgins
wrote:



On Jun 6, 11:12*am, john wrote:


On Jun 6, 8:58*am, Robert Higgins
wrote:


On Jun 6, 10:44*am, john wrote:


On Jun 6, 8:18*am, PD wrote:


On Jun 6, 12:00*am, franklinhu wrote:


On Jun 3, 6:34*am, john wrote:


On Jun 2, 10:50*am, (Michael Moroney)
wrote:


...and your evidence that all those spinny coins have anything whatsoever
to do with a real benzene molecule is what?


They are classical pathways put together in
the form of a six-member ring which is planar
and has six others each sharing with one member
of the ring and also in the same plane and has
the capacity to contain 30 electrons.
What do you want?


Show me a better explanation of how it works.


Try this on for size....


See this web page:http://franklinhu.com/atmdetail2.html


You might want to do a Google Images search for "benzene STM" and
update your references.


At the bottom you will see an actual STM picture of benzene. Now what
is strange here is that we see 3 little lumps poking up in this
picture, not 6 lumps arrayed in a planar arrangement as is commonly
shown and appears to be assumed by your model. Any reasonable model of
benzene should be able to explain this.


http://franklinhu.com/benzenestm.jpg


My own cubic atomic model explains this as the 3 hydrogen atoms
sticking up above the carbon ring plane and the remaining 3 hydrogen
atoms point downward below the carbon plane. Note that this particular
arrangment is still perfectly symmettric with regards to the resonance
data used to establish the location of the hydrogen atoms. All the
resonance data tells us is that each of the hydrogens have the same
resonance. This could mean planar, but it could also mean 3 up and 3
down - as long as it is symettric about the carbon ring, the
resonances will all come out the same.


I have shown this in the picture of benzene in my cubic atomic model
as:


http://franklinhu.com/benzene.jpg


The shape of the carbon atom allows three of it's "arms" to link
together to form a ring with one of its arms pointed inward forming a
double bond. Notice that only the red/black cubes are touching
eachother to form an attractive bond. The remaining carbon arm is then
used to hold the hydrogen atom. The requirement of only red/black
cubes touching forces it to have 3 up hydrogens and 3 down hydrogens.
This model easily and intuitively explains why this forms a "double"
bond and why we see the 3 bumps in the STM picture of benzene.. Can
your model match that result?


To see a full explanation of this cubic atomic model which I think
does a much better job of explaining the structure of benzene, see:


http://franklinhu.com/buildatm.htm


-fhubenzene- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


The three bumps thing is helpful.


http://users.accesscomm.ca/john/BenzeneA.GIF
provides classical orbitals to accommodate 30
electrons in a ring-with-6-hydrogens scenario.


The problem is in feeding the electrons into it in
the right order.Opposite hydrogens exchange simultaneously
with this pattern, so does one give and the other
get wrt their hydrogens? Or do both give? Both get?


You see the problem.


But three bumps seems to say that adjacent and
opposite hydrogens are opposite.
I'll plug that in to my
Benzene Sudoku and see if it runs:http://users.accesscomm.ca/john/Benzene%2520Sudoku.xls


thanks franklin


You do realize that the structure of benzene has been known since
1865. High resolution crystal structures of benzene have long been
available. The molecular orbitals of benzene have been know since the
the 1930's.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Ah.
Enlighten me.
Explain them.


This is basic organic chemistry, and much of it is even covered in the
first year (college) course. When you've learned enough to ask a
reasonable question, I'll answer it. Until then, try to catch up to
1865, at least.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


When you are able to map the
pathways of the 30 individual electrons of Benzene
according to your 'model',
using AutoCad, or somesuch, please feel free
to squawk.


Actually, electrons in atoms don't have pathways per se, since
Newtonian trajectories are inconsistent with the Heisenberg
uncertainty principle. So drawing pathways, with Autocad or Maya or a
#2 Ticonderoga pencil, is not a representation of reality, John.
 




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