Clays in Mawrth Vallis - Mars

kT

http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_006742_2050

Seriously, this is the place. MSL needs to plop right down into the
middle of this, otherwise it's just more of the same old new Mars.

**BradGuth**

On Feb 20, 5:52 pm, kT wrote:
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_006742_2050

Seriously, this is the place. MSL needs to plop right down into the
middle of this, otherwise it's just more of the same old new Mars.

But where's all the Mars salt?

Isn't salt rather important for life as we know it?

Earth w/o salt and we'd never have existed, or much less evolved into
what we know as intelligent life.

Earth w/o diatoms is just as pathetic. So, where are those Mars
silica shell diatoms?
.. - Brad Guth

**jonathan**

**BradGuth**

On Feb 23, 3:52 am, "Jonathan" wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in ...
On Feb 20, 5:52 pm, kT wrote:
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_006742_2050

Seriously, this is the place. MSL needs to plop right down into the
middle of this, otherwise it's just more of the same old new Mars.

But where's all the Mars salt?

Isn't salt rather important for life as we know it?

Earth w/o salt and we'd never have existed, or much less evolved into
what we know as intelligent life.

Ya mean like this salt lake on earth? Notice the most common
feature isn't diatoms, but highly uniform size ...spheres.

Lunar and Planetary Science XXXII (2001)
BIOGENIC STRUCTURES FROM A HYPERSALINE LAKE
IN THE BAHAMAS.

"Results and Discussion: Our FE-SEM analysis
indicates a range of microbial life forms on the fractured
stromatolite surfaces. Spheroidal features are the
most common, with four distinct populations, characterized
by their highly uniform intrapopulation sizes:"http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2001/pdf/1068.pdf

Meridiani is covered with sulfates (salts). Notice it's horizon
is flat as a pancake, which only an ocean can form.http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/027...448P2573L5M1_L...

Earth w/o diatoms is just as pathetic. So, where are those Mars
silica shell diatoms?

Like these?

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/180...7BTP2568L5M1_L...

..............

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...5850153EFF3505...

Various wide angle images of the spheres.

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/136...243P2598L5M1_L....

. - Brad Guth

As far as we know, those Mars spheres have not been identified as
diatom like, and salt has nothing whatsoever to do with such diatoms
other than they could have existed/coexisted in fresh or salty wet
environments. For one thing, them spheres is simply way too big for
representing silica diatoms, that which you obviously haven't an
honest clue about even Earthly diatoms, or of what they accomplished
for creating and having sustained life as we know it.

Take away our diatoms, and most all life as we know it (especially of
the intelligent kind) will simply fail to adapt to such extreme levels
of CO2 and of the much lower amount of O2.

Thus far, the best available science of Mars hasn't offered 0.1% the
salt of Earth, making Mars a most likely once upon a time fresh water
and then most likely of an extremely smelly swamp like environment
without much solar induced tide (no measurable tide if mostly frozen
solid). If there was any significant Mars salt to behold, by now it
would have been extremely well identified and accepted as such by
multiple peers of expertise, as well as for most every surface m3 or
possibly every planetary tonne accounted for.

Did those impacts and solar wind manage to blow away or otherwise
extract the salt?

Thus far, Mars is a nearly salt free environment, of which is odd
because being further away from the sun might suggest by those pesky
laws of physics that if anything it should have been a little saltier
than Earth.

Did Mars salt merge with some other cold/inert element and become
entirely something other, like perhaps those spheres?
. - Brad Guth

**jonathan**

"BradGuth" wrote in message ...
On Feb 23, 3:52 am, "Jonathan" wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in ...
On Feb 20, 5:52 pm, kT wrote:
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_006742_2050

Seriously, this is the place. MSL needs to plop right down into the
middle of this, otherwise it's just more of the same old new Mars.

But where's all the Mars salt?

Isn't salt rather important for life as we know it?

Earth w/o salt and we'd never have existed, or much less evolved into
what we know as intelligent life.

Ya mean like this salt lake on earth? Notice the most common
feature isn't diatoms, but highly uniform size ...spheres.

Lunar and Planetary Science XXXII (2001)
BIOGENIC STRUCTURES FROM A HYPERSALINE LAKE
IN THE BAHAMAS.

"Results and Discussion: Our FE-SEM analysis
indicates a range of microbial life forms on the fractured
stromatolite surfaces. Spheroidal features are the
most common, with four distinct populations, characterized
by their highly uniform intrapopulation sizes:"http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2001/pdf/1068.pdf

Meridiani is covered with sulfates (salts). Notice it's horizon
is flat as a pancake, which only an ocean can form.http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/027...448P2573L5M1_L...

Earth w/o diatoms is just as pathetic. So, where are those Mars
silica shell diatoms?

Like these?

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/180...7BTP2568L5M1_L...

..............

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...5850153EFF3505...

Various wide angle images of the spheres.

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/136...243P2598L5M1_L...

. - Brad Guth

As far as we know, those Mars spheres have not been identified as
diatom like,

Never said they were. Only they are everywhere and need
an explanation.

and salt has nothing whatsoever to do with such diatoms
other than they could have existed/coexisted in fresh or salty wet
environments.

Right, the salt lake on earth I cited, and Meridiani are
very much alike. Meridiani is a dried up salt lake/ocean.
Or most likely a shallow subsurface body of salt water.
I simply pointed out that on earth, in a salt lake and on
mars in a dried up salt lake, they two have one thing
in common. The most common feature of ...both...salt
lakes are large populations of highly uniform spheres.

I find that interesting.

For one thing, them spheres is simply way too big for
representing silica diatoms,

They are silica/iron concretions.

Thus far, the best available science of Mars hasn't offered 0.1% the
salt of Earth, making Mars a most likely once upon a time fresh water

I'm not sure why you keep saying Mars doesn't have the salt
for life. In fact the concern is that Mars is too salty for
most microbes.
http://www.smm.org/buzz/blog/mars_too_salty_for_life

And the high salt content, as much as 40% in some outcrops, was
the primary evidence for past water. This discovery, the high salt
content, was mostly responsible for the Science Magazine
Science Breakthrough of the Year just after the rovers landed.
http://cmbi.bjmu.cn/news/report/2004...files/Mars.pdf

Did Mars salt merge with some other cold/inert element and become
entirely something other, like perhaps those spheres?

We'll have to wait for better equipped landers, coming soon enough.
But Meridiani looks like an evaporated salty ocean floor. The spheres
would form in the softer sulfate deposits collecting on the sea floor
and weather out after the salts erode away. The question remains
on the spheres. No one to my knowledge has shown any earth
examples of highly uniform size and highly spherical concretions
forming ...without...either being nucleated by organic material.
Or growth mediated by microbrial activity. Abiotic concretions
are noted for their complete lack of consistancy in sizes and
shapes on earth as they take the form of whatever crack and
crevice they grow in.

No one has explained how the spheres on mars formed, because
as far as I can see, they can't form without the ...involvment...of
life or at least organic material.

And remember, they went to Meridiani because of the hematite
evidence which is a good indicator of past water. Well....almost
ALL of the hematite is in the spheres, all of it. And they don't
know how that came to be. Although they have accomplished
their primary objective of finding signs of water, they have
left open the debate on life, since the reason for the hematite
being present and only in the spheres is still unanswered
I believe.
http://cmbi.bjmu.cn/news/report/2004...files/Mars.pdf

.. - Brad Guth

**BradGuth**

On Feb 25, 4:56 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
"BradGuth" wrote in ...

On Feb 23, 3:52 am, "Jonathan" wrote:

"BradGuth" wrote in ...
On Feb 20, 5:52 pm, kT wrote:
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_006742_2050

Seriously, this is the place. MSL needs to plop right down into the
middle of this, otherwise it's just more of the same old new Mars.

But where's all the Mars salt?

Isn't salt rather important for life as we know it?

Earth w/o salt and we'd never have existed, or much less evolved into
what we know as intelligent life.

Ya mean like this salt lake on earth? Notice the most common
feature isn't diatoms, but highly uniform size ...spheres.

Lunar and Planetary Science XXXII (2001)
BIOGENIC STRUCTURES FROM A HYPERSALINE LAKE
IN THE BAHAMAS.

"Results and Discussion: Our FE-SEM analysis
indicates a range of microbial life forms on the fractured
stromatolite surfaces. Spheroidal features are the
most common, with four distinct populations, characterized
by their highly uniform intrapopulation sizes:"http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2001/pdf/1068.pdf

Meridiani is covered with sulfates (salts). Notice it's horizon
is flat as a pancake, which only an ocean can form.http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/027...448P2573L5M1_L...

Earth w/o diatoms is just as pathetic. So, where are those Mars
silica shell diatoms?

Like these?

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/180...342P2537L5M1_L......

..............

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...7503553EFF2208......

Various wide angle images of the spheres.

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/136...174P2376L5M1_L......

. - Brad Guth
As far as we know, those Mars spheres have not been identified as
diatom like,

Never said they were. Only they are everywhere and need
an explanation.

And for that "explanation", it seems a more than good enough robotic
solution has existed for decades.

and salt has nothing whatsoever to do with such diatoms
other than they could have existed/coexisted in fresh or salty wet
environments.

Right, the salt lake on earth I cited, and Meridiani are
very much alike. Meridiani is a dried up salt lake/ocean.
Or most likely a shallow subsurface body of salt water.
I simply pointed out that on earth, in a salt lake and on
mars in a dried up salt lake, they two have one thing
in common. The most common feature of ...both...salt
lakes are large populations of highly uniform spheres.

I find that interesting.

I find it far more interesting that such dry lakes on Mars are those w/
o their fair share of salt.

For one thing, them spheres is simply way too big for
representing silica diatoms,

They are silica/iron concretions.

But apparently not as derived from diatoms or as having any portion of
salt.

Thus far, the best available science of Mars hasn't offered 0.1% the
salt of Earth, making Mars a most likely once upon a time fresh water

I'm not sure why you keep saying Mars doesn't have the salt
for life. In fact the concern is that Mars is too salty for
most microbes.http://www.smm.org/buzz/blog/mars_too_salty_for_life

And the high salt content, as much as 40% in some outcrops, was
the primary evidence for past water. This discovery, the high salt
content, was mostly responsible for the Science Magazine
Science Breakthrough of the Year just after the rovers landed.http://cmbi.bjmu.cn/news/report/2004...files/Mars.pdf

Then you're saying the new and improved planetology/mineralogy worth
of Mars salt is actually there to behold, just not having been
previously quantified as such because?????

As I'd stipulated before, I'd expect a planet like Mars as having to
be saltier than Earth, although why would such Mars salt have been so
gosh darn difficult to discover in the first place? You'd think good
old salt would have been right up there within the top ten minerals or
raw elements discovered as of the first lander. Why has such basic
and/or fundamental science taken so damn long?

Did Mars salt merge with some other cold/inert element and become
entirely something other, like perhaps those spheres?

We'll have to wait for better equipped landers, coming soon enough.
But Meridiani looks like an evaporated salty ocean floor. The spheres
would form in the softer sulfate deposits collecting on the sea floor
and weather out after the salts erode away. The question remains
on the spheres. No one to my knowledge has shown any earth
examples of highly uniform size and highly spherical concretions
forming ...without...either being nucleated by organic material.
Or growth mediated by microbrial activity. Abiotic concretions
are noted for their complete lack of consistancy in sizes and
shapes on earth as they take the form of whatever crack and
crevice they grow in.

No one has explained how the spheres on mars formed, because
as far as I can see, they can't form without the ...involvment...of
life or at least organic material.

Of whatever looks salty and is actually of salt are two entirely
different things.

And remember, they went to Meridiani because of the hematite
evidence which is a good indicator of past water. Well....almost
ALL of the hematite is in the spheres, all of it. And they don't
know how that came to be. Although they have accomplished
their primary objective of finding signs of water, they have
left open the debate on life, since the reason for the hematite
being present and only in the spheres is still unanswered
I believe.http://cmbi.bjmu.cn/news/report/2004...files/Mars.pdf

The extreme cold of Mars can do wonders to those surface minerals, and
of supercomputers right here on good old mother Earth that's in the
process of global warming itself to death, can simulate those
conditions within good enough spec.

Another spendy robotic mission, and many extra years down the drain
(sort of speak), should easily uncover the source and/or cause of
those spheres. But then what? (spend a few extra billions and
waste yet another decade? or spend another trillion in order to place
an intelligent butt load of our human DNA on Mars, when we can't even
accomplish our moon?)
.. - Brad Guth

**BradGuth**

On Feb 26, 3:54 pm, BradGuth wrote:
On Feb 25, 4:56 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

"BradGuth" wrote in ...

On Feb 23, 3:52 am, "Jonathan" wrote:

"BradGuth" wrote in ...
On Feb 20, 5:52 pm, kT wrote:
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_006742_2050

Seriously, this is the place. MSL needs to plop right down into the
middle of this, otherwise it's just more of the same old new Mars.

But where's all the Mars salt?

Isn't salt rather important for life as we know it?

Earth w/o salt and we'd never have existed, or much less evolved into
what we know as intelligent life.

Ya mean like this salt lake on earth? Notice the most common
feature isn't diatoms, but highly uniform size ...spheres.

Lunar and Planetary Science XXXII (2001)
BIOGENIC STRUCTURES FROM A HYPERSALINE LAKE
IN THE BAHAMAS.

"Results and Discussion: Our FE-SEM analysis
indicates a range of microbial life forms on the fractured
stromatolite surfaces. Spheroidal features are the
most common, with four distinct populations, characterized
by their highly uniform intrapopulation sizes:"http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2001/pdf/1068.pdf

Meridiani is covered with sulfates (salts). Notice it's horizon
is flat as a pancake, which only an ocean can form.http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/027...448P2573L5M1_L...

Earth w/o diatoms is just as pathetic. So, where are those Mars
silica shell diatoms?

Like these?

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/180...342P2537L5M1_L......

..............

http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/galle...7503553EFF2208......

Various wide angle images of the spheres.

http://areo.info/mer/opportunity/136...174P2376L5M1_L......

. - Brad Guth
As far as we know, those Mars spheres have not been identified as
diatom like,

Never said they were. Only they are everywhere and need
an explanation.

And for that "explanation", it seems a more than good enough robotic
solution has existed for decades.

and salt has nothing whatsoever to do with such diatoms
other than they could have existed/coexisted in fresh or salty wet
environments.

Right, the salt lake on earth I cited, and Meridiani are
very much alike. Meridiani is a dried up salt lake/ocean.
Or most likely a shallow subsurface body of salt water.
I simply pointed out that on earth, in a salt lake and on
mars in a dried up salt lake, they two have one thing
in common. The most common feature of ...both...salt
lakes are large populations of highly uniform spheres.

I find that interesting.

I find it far more interesting that such dry lakes on Mars are those w/
o their fair share of salt.

For one thing, them spheres is simply way too big for
representing silica diatoms,

They are silica/iron concretions.

But apparently not as derived from diatoms or as having any portion of
salt.

Thus far, the best available science of Mars hasn't offered 0.1% the
salt of Earth, making Mars a most likely once upon a time fresh water

I'm not sure why you keep saying Mars doesn't have the salt
for life. In fact the concern is that Mars is too salty for
most microbes.http://www.smm.org/buzz/blog/mars_too_salty_for_life

And the high salt content, as much as 40% in some outcrops, was
the primary evidence for past water. This discovery, the high salt
content, was mostly responsible for the Science Magazine
Science Breakthrough of the Year just after the rovers landed.http://cmbi.bjmu.cn/news/report/2004...files/Mars.pdf

Then you're saying the new and improved planetology/mineralogy worth
of Mars salt is actually there to behold, just not having been
previously quantified as such because?????

As I'd stipulated before, I'd expect a planet like Mars as having to
be saltier than Earth, although why would such Mars salt have been so
gosh darn difficult to discover in the first place? You'd think good
old salt would have been right up there within the top ten minerals or
raw elements discovered as of the first lander. Why has such basic
and/or fundamental science taken so damn long?

Did Mars salt merge with some other cold/inert element and become
entirely something other, like perhaps those spheres?

We'll have to wait for better equipped landers, coming soon enough.
But Meridiani looks like an evaporated salty ocean floor. The spheres
would form in the softer sulfate deposits collecting on the sea floor
and weather out after the salts erode away. The question remains
on the spheres. No one to my knowledge has shown any earth
examples of highly uniform size and highly spherical concretions
forming ...without...either being nucleated by organic material.
Or growth mediated by microbrial activity. Abiotic concretions
are noted for their complete lack of consistancy in sizes and
shapes on earth as they take the form of whatever crack and
crevice they grow in.

No one has explained how the spheres on mars formed, because
as far as I can see, they can't form without the ...involvment...of
life or at least organic material.

Of whatever looks salty and is actually of salt are two entirely
different things.

And remember, they went to Meridiani because of the hematite
evidence which is a good indicator of past water. Well....almost
ALL of the hematite is in the spheres, all of it. And they don't
know how that came to be. Although they have accomplished
their primary objective of finding signs of water, they have
left open the debate on life, since the reason for the hematite
being present and only in the spheres is still unanswered
I believe.http://cmbi.bjmu.cn/news/report/2004...files/Mars.pdf

The extreme cold of Mars can do wonders to those surface minerals, and
of supercomputers right here on good old mother Earth that's in the
process of global warming itself to death, can simulate those
conditions within good enough spec.

Another spendy robotic mission, and many extra years down the drain
(sort of speak), should easily uncover the source and/or cause of
those spheres. But then what? (spend a few extra billions and
waste yet another decade? or spend another trillion in order to place
an intelligent butt load of our human DNA on Mars, when we can't even
accomplish our moon?)
. - Brad Guth

BTW, there's no such thing as one all-inclusive type of salt, although
mineral rich rock and sea salts are commonly utilized in place of the
more pure forms of common table salt.

Sodium chloride as NaCI (as common salt; sea salt, halite; table salt)
plus any number of other minor elements associated from the
environment or nature of the salty deposit area is what makes the
complex mineralogy of salt so downright interesting and otherwise
essential to life as we know it.

I'd have to agree, that too much salt would have put a serious damper
on the natural evolution of life as we know it, although not a problem
for visiting ETs like ourselves.
.. - Brad Guth

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Clays in Mawrth Vallis - Mars	kT	Space Shuttle	6	February 27th 08 12:26 AM
Clays in Mawrth Vallis - Mars	kT	Space Station	6	February 27th 08 12:26 AM
Clays in Mawrth Vallis - Mars	kT	Policy	6	February 27th 08 12:26 AM
Further clays found by Spirit in the Columbia Hills on Mars?	Robert Clark	Astronomy Misc	1	December 19th 05 01:07 AM
Ancient floods on Mars: where Iani Chaos opens into Ares Vallis	Jacques van Oene	News	0	June 1st 05 10:09 PM