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News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 15th 08, 02:59 AM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity
Robert Karl Stonjek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 196
Default News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have
yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the
speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that
their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations for
the strange quantum mechanical effect.

The physicists, led by Nicolas Gisin from the University of Geneva, arranged
their experiment by sending two photons down fiber optic cables to detectors
in two Swiss villages located 18 km apart. Both photons started in Geneva,
with one heading toward Satigny and the other toward Jussy. The study, which
is published in Nature, builds on previous tests published a few months ago
in Physical Review Letters.

When the researchers measured several properties of each photon at its
destination, they found that the particles could instantly sense the otherīs
behavior without any known communication. Although this correlation obeys
the laws of quantum mechanics, it seems to defy the nature of space and
time, at least from humansī everyday perspectives.

The physicists ruled out several possible classical explanations for the
instantaneous communication. For one thing, they showed that the photons did
not share information before leaving Geneva, and so they didnīt travel
knowing about each otherīs properties.

In another test, the scientists showed that no communication could have
occurred through a different reference frame, as might happen because of the
photonsī high speeds. According to Einsteinīs theory of relativity,
observers moving at high speeds can get different measurements of the same
event because they have different reference frames. But, by performing tests
over a complete rotation of the Earth, the researchers ruled out this
possibility.

For now, Gisinīs team doesnīt have a good explanation as to how the
seemingly instant correlations happen. Even though it doesnīt make sense to
them, they hope that others might one day find a better understanding.

In a Nature News story, theorist Terence Rudolph at Imperial College London
suggested that humans think that the three dimensions of space and one
dimension of time that weīre used to should be the same everywhere, on all
scales. But, he says, some things in quantum mechanics might transcend our
view of space-time, and we just donīt get to see the whole picture.

"We think space and time are important because thatīs the kind of monkeys we
are," he said.

More information: Salart, D., Baas, A., Branciard, C., Gisin, N. & Zbinden,
H. Nature, 454, 861-864 (2008).

via: Nature News
http://www.physorg.com/news137937526.html

Comment:
Approaching the speed of light, the distance between the emitter and
absorber
falls to zero and the interval of transit also falls to zero. So at the
instant of detection, the two photons are in physical contact and no
transmission of information over a distance occurs.

One might argue that there is no light frame. But there is a frame for,
say, an electron travelling at c-1/infinity. The distance two such
electrons travels (as in the above experiment) is 1/infinity and the
interval is 1/infinity seconds. Thus it is reasonable to extrapolate to the
paired photons and assume that at the instant of detection, the two photons
are separated by a zero distance and zero seconds have passed during the
'transit'.

The paradox is more fundamental. If two clocks A and B are separated by
some distance (let it be c meters) after synchronisation, then a photon
emitted by A and absorbed by the B will have travelled for 1 second over a
distance of c. But in the light frame, the photon travelled zero meters in
zero seconds (consider an electron or neutrino travelling at 1/infinity less
than c if the light frame is too objectionable).

The difference in the time on the clocks will be one second ie if A was at
12:00 noon at the time of the photon emission, then B will be at +1s at the
time of the photon absorption. The problem is that in the light frame (or
the c-1/infinity frame), the two clocks were already showing difference of 1
second with B ahead of A.

But if a photon is emitted by B and absorbed by A, all of the above clock
readings are reversed with A being 1s ahead of B at the time of the emission
and absorption of the photon in the light-like frame.

So how can the two clocks both be 1s ahead of each other? The answer is
that both alternatives are true until a photon is absorbed (the function
describing both states ie A ahead or B and B ahead of A, collapses to just
one solution when the photon is absorbed in the frame of clocks A and B).

Posted by
Robert Karl Stonjek


  #2  
Old August 15th 08, 07:24 AM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity
mathkills
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

On Aug 14, 3:59*pm, "Robert Karl Stonjek"
wrote:
Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have
yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the
speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that
their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations for
the strange quantum mechanical effect.

The physicists, led by Nicolas Gisin from the University of Geneva, arranged
their experiment by sending two photons down fiber optic cables to detectors
in two Swiss villages located 18 km apart. Both photons started in Geneva,
with one heading toward Satigny and the other toward Jussy. The study, which
is published in Nature, builds on previous tests published a few months ago
in Physical Review Letters.

When the researchers measured several properties of each photon at its
destination, they found that the particles could instantly sense the otherīs
behavior without any known communication. Although this correlation obeys
the laws of quantum mechanics, it seems to defy the nature of space and
time, at least from humansī everyday perspectives.

The physicists ruled out several possible classical explanations for the
instantaneous communication. For one thing, they showed that the photons did
not share information before leaving Geneva, and so they didnīt travel
knowing about each otherīs properties.

In another test, the scientists showed that no communication could have
occurred through a different reference frame, as might happen because of the
photonsī high speeds. According to Einsteinīs theory of relativity,
observers moving at high speeds can get different measurements of the same
event because they have different reference frames. But, by performing tests
over a complete rotation of the Earth, the researchers ruled out this
possibility.

For now, Gisinīs team doesnīt have a good explanation as to how the
seemingly instant correlations happen. Even though it doesnīt make sense to
them, they hope that others might one day find a better understanding.

In a Nature News story, theorist Terence Rudolph at Imperial College London
suggested that humans think that the three dimensions of space and one
dimension of time that weīre used to should be the same everywhere, on all
scales. But, he says, some things in quantum mechanics might transcend our
view of space-time, and we just donīt get to see the whole picture.

"We think space and time are important because thatīs the kind of monkeys we
are," he said.

More information: Salart, D., Baas, A., Branciard, C., Gisin, N. & Zbinden,
H. Nature, 454, 861-864 (2008).

via: Nature Newshttp://www.physorg.com/news137937526.html

Comment:
Approaching the speed of light, the distance between the emitter and
absorber
falls to zero and the interval of transit also falls to zero. *So at the
instant of detection, the two photons are in physical contact and no
transmission of information over a distance occurs.

One might argue that there is no light frame. *But there is a frame for,
say, an electron travelling at c-1/infinity. *The distance two such
electrons travels (as in the above experiment) is 1/infinity and the
interval is 1/infinity seconds. *Thus it is reasonable to extrapolate to the
paired photons and assume that at the instant of detection, the two photons
are separated by a zero distance and zero seconds have passed during the
'transit'.

The paradox is more fundamental. *If two clocks A and B are separated by
some distance (let it be c meters) after synchronisation, then a photon
emitted by A and absorbed by the B will have travelled for 1 second over a
distance of c. *But in the light frame, the photon travelled zero meters in
zero seconds (consider an electron or neutrino travelling at 1/infinity less
than c if the light frame is too objectionable).

The difference in the time on the clocks will be one second ie if A was at
12:00 noon at the time of the photon emission, then B will be at +1s at the
time of the photon absorption. *The problem is that in the light frame (or
the c-1/infinity frame), the two clocks were already showing difference of 1
second with B ahead of A.

But if a photon is emitted by B and absorbed by A, all of the above clock
readings are reversed with A being 1s ahead of B at the time of the emission
and absorption of the photon in the light-like frame.

So how can the two clocks both be 1s ahead of each other? *The answer is
that both alternatives are true until a photon is absorbed (the function
describing both states ie A ahead or B and B ahead of A, collapses to just
one solution when the photon is absorbed in the frame of clocks A and B).

Posted by
Robert Karl Stonjek


There are many reasons this theory is not capable of explaining this
effect. Here are two:

1. This effect is also seen in massive particles at much slower
speeds, such as in electrons that may form the basis of quantum
communications.
2. Physics must hold in all inertial reference frames, so stating that
something works in just one special frame and no others is rubbish
(especially in the "rest frame of a photon.")


mk
  #3  
Old August 15th 08, 11:05 AM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity
Thomas Heger[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations


"Robert Karl Stonjek" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have
yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the
speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that
their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations
for
the strange quantum mechanical effect.


My personal explanation goes like this:
I think about a state as a certain pattern. If you take out a chunk, the
rest remains. Now we have to think of a photon as a state, that fills some
space
It is actually a part of a system, if you think of an antisymmetric space.
Than to a 'plus state' there is a 'minus state' in opposing direction.
Time is now a way, we label certain events. In this case the movement of a
photon through empty space. If we think about spacetime a such an
antisymmetric space, than we can think of time as a movement of the
observer, while the photons move instantanious. This would gain a constant
speed of light, because to a timestep we have a spacestep and the relation
in vacuum is always the same.
Best way to imagine this relation is, to fold a narrow elipse along a
diagonal line. The circular speed is in fact infinite, but we experience
that as c, since we get moved ourselfs.

TH


  #4  
Old August 15th 08, 01:35 PM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity
Robert Karl Stonjek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 196
Default News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

Comment:
Approaching the speed of light, the distance between the emitter and
absorber
falls to zero and the interval of transit also falls to zero. So at the
instant of detection, the two photons are in physical contact and no
transmission of information over a distance occurs.

One might argue that there is no light frame. But there is a frame for,
say, an electron travelling at c-1/infinity. The distance two such
electrons travels (as in the above experiment) is 1/infinity and the
interval is 1/infinity seconds. Thus it is reasonable to extrapolate to

the
paired photons and assume that at the instant of detection, the two

photons
are separated by a zero distance and zero seconds have passed during the
'transit'.

The paradox is more fundamental. If two clocks A and B are separated by
some distance (let it be c meters) after synchronisation, then a photon
emitted by A and absorbed by the B will have travelled for 1 second over a
distance of c. But in the light frame, the photon travelled zero meters in
zero seconds (consider an electron or neutrino travelling at 1/infinity

less
than c if the light frame is too objectionable).

The difference in the time on the clocks will be one second ie if A was at
12:00 noon at the time of the photon emission, then B will be at +1s at

the
time of the photon absorption. The problem is that in the light frame (or
the c-1/infinity frame), the two clocks were already showing difference of

1
second with B ahead of A.

But if a photon is emitted by B and absorbed by A, all of the above clock
readings are reversed with A being 1s ahead of B at the time of the

emission
and absorption of the photon in the light-like frame.

So how can the two clocks both be 1s ahead of each other? The answer is
that both alternatives are true until a photon is absorbed (the function
describing both states ie A ahead or B and B ahead of A, collapses to just
one solution when the photon is absorbed in the frame of clocks A and B).

Posted by
Robert Karl Stonjek


There are many reasons this theory is not capable of explaining this
effect. Here are two:

1. This effect is also seen in massive particles at much slower
speeds, such as in electrons that may form the basis of quantum
communications.
2. Physics must hold in all inertial reference frames, so stating that
something works in just one special frame and no others is rubbish
(especially in the "rest frame of a photon.")


mk

RKS:
I never said that there were special conditions at c. The same physics that
causes length contraction at any speed should also cause length contraction
at c or at an infinitely small speed less than c, a speed attainable by
electrons and neutrinos, for instance.

It is the Relativists that want to exclude relativistic changes at light
speed, not me.

At c, the photon is not at rest and it is not in motion relative to some
other frame. At c, the distance between any two points is zero, so a photon
does not travel any distance and there is no interval. This is consistent
with a one dimensional view of spacetime that must exist at c ie the
transfer of energy, the amount of energy, and the direction of transfer are
the only measurable properties.

Thus at c, there is no rest frame for light unless we consider the photon as
it is before emission and after absorption ie it is nothing more than the
energy state of the emitter and absorber.

Can you provide a link to the parallel phenomena in electrons? Thanks.

Robert


  #5  
Old August 15th 08, 01:40 PM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity
Androcles[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,135
Default News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations


"Robert Karl Stonjek" wrote in message
...
Comment:
Approaching the speed of light, the distance between the emitter and
absorber
falls to zero and the interval of transit also falls to zero. So at the
instant of detection, the two photons are in physical contact and no
transmission of information over a distance occurs.

One might argue that there is no light frame. But there is a frame for,
say, an electron travelling at c-1/infinity. The distance two such
electrons travels (as in the above experiment) is 1/infinity and the
interval is 1/infinity seconds. Thus it is reasonable to extrapolate to

the
paired photons and assume that at the instant of detection, the two

photons
are separated by a zero distance and zero seconds have passed during the
'transit'.

The paradox is more fundamental. If two clocks A and B are separated by
some distance (let it be c meters) after synchronisation, then a photon
emitted by A and absorbed by the B will have travelled for 1 second over
a
distance of c. But in the light frame, the photon travelled zero meters
in
zero seconds (consider an electron or neutrino travelling at 1/infinity

less
than c if the light frame is too objectionable).

The difference in the time on the clocks will be one second ie if A was
at
12:00 noon at the time of the photon emission, then B will be at +1s at

the
time of the photon absorption. The problem is that in the light frame (or
the c-1/infinity frame), the two clocks were already showing difference
of

1
second with B ahead of A.

But if a photon is emitted by B and absorbed by A, all of the above clock
readings are reversed with A being 1s ahead of B at the time of the

emission
and absorption of the photon in the light-like frame.

So how can the two clocks both be 1s ahead of each other? The answer is
that both alternatives are true until a photon is absorbed (the function
describing both states ie A ahead or B and B ahead of A, collapses to
just
one solution when the photon is absorbed in the frame of clocks A and B).

Posted by
Robert Karl Stonjek


There are many reasons this theory is not capable of explaining this
effect. Here are two:

1. This effect is also seen in massive particles at much slower
speeds, such as in electrons that may form the basis of quantum
communications.
2. Physics must hold in all inertial reference frames, so stating that
something works in just one special frame and no others is rubbish
(especially in the "rest frame of a photon.")


mk

RKS:
I never said that there were special conditions at c. The same physics
that
causes length contraction at any speed should also cause length
contraction
at c or at an infinitely small speed less than c, a speed attainable by
electrons and neutrinos, for instance.

It is the Relativists that want to exclude relativistic changes at light
speed, not me.


It is the relativists that want to INCLUDE relativistic changes at ANY
speed,
what do you want to INCLUDE?

  #6  
Old August 15th 08, 06:31 PM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity
Darwin123
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 247
Default News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

On Aug 14, 9:59 pm, "Robert Karl Stonjek"
wrote:

In another test, the scientists showed that no communication could have
occurred through a different reference frame, as might happen because of the
photonsī high speeds. According to Einsteinīs theory of relativity,
observers moving at high speeds can get different measurements of the same
event because they have different reference frames.

....

For now, Gisinīs team doesnīt have a good explanation as to how the
seemingly instant correlations happen.


A correlation is not necessarily a communication. A
communication is a type of correlation with a causal order: one event
happens because the other event is happening.
However, a correlation can be caused by a third event which causes
both correlated events. Or the correlation can happen due to
preselection. Or all sorts of things.
I sometimes read about historians arguing over the causal order
of human events. When people do the same thing at nearly the same
time, one wonders if one was copying the other. They use phrases like
"drinking from the same stream." "Drinking from the same stream" is
when two people do the same thing because they both copied it from a
third person at the same time.
Quantum communication is intellectual fascinating and may have
some very important application. However, one has to rather careful in
quantum communication about tracing a causality chain. Yes, there are
physical causes even in high level quantum mechanics. However, the
causal chain is sometime not obvious.
  #7  
Old August 15th 08, 08:26 PM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity
Uncle Al
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 697
Default News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

Robert Karl Stonjek wrote:

Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have
yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the
speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that
their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations for
the strange quantum mechanical effect.
[snip crap]


BULL****. The wavefunction instantaneously collpsed into consistent
observables. One Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox dataset contains no
information. Information is contained in the difference of datasets -
and that comparison cannot propagate faster than lightspeed.

The universe is causal. Uneducated people reporting unfounded
allegations don't change that. Get over it.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2
  #8  
Old August 15th 08, 09:12 PM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity
Yousuf Khan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 594
Default News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

Robert Karl Stonjek wrote:
Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have
yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the
speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that
their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations for
the strange quantum mechanical effect.



Various candidate GUTs seem to be treating space-time itself as an
atomic structure. So nothing travelling in "space-time" can go faster
than light, including light itself. What if these things are travelling
in the underlying void? If space-time is atomic, then there must be
something even more fundamental underneath it, right?

Yousuf Khan
  #9  
Old August 15th 08, 10:16 PM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity
Mike Jr.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

On Aug 14, 9:59*pm, "Robert Karl Stonjek"
wrote:
Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have
yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the
speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that
their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations for
the strange quantum mechanical effect.

The physicists, led by Nicolas Gisin from the University of Geneva, arranged
their experiment by sending two photons down fiber optic cables to detectors
in two Swiss villages located 18 km apart. Both photons started in Geneva,
with one heading toward Satigny and the other toward Jussy. The study, which
is published in Nature, builds on previous tests published a few months ago
in Physical Review Letters.

When the researchers measured several properties of each photon at its
destination, they found that the particles could instantly sense the otherīs
behavior without any known communication. Although this correlation obeys
the laws of quantum mechanics, it seems to defy the nature of space and
time, at least from humansī everyday perspectives.

The physicists ruled out several possible classical explanations for the
instantaneous communication. For one thing, they showed that the photons did
not share information before leaving Geneva, and so they didnīt travel
knowing about each otherīs properties.

In another test, the scientists showed that no communication could have
occurred through a different reference frame, as might happen because of the
photonsī high speeds. According to Einsteinīs theory of relativity,
observers moving at high speeds can get different measurements of the same
event because they have different reference frames. But, by performing tests
over a complete rotation of the Earth, the researchers ruled out this
possibility.

For now, Gisinīs team doesnīt have a good explanation as to how the
seemingly instant correlations happen. Even though it doesnīt make sense to
them, they hope that others might one day find a better understanding.

In a Nature News story, theorist Terence Rudolph at Imperial College London
suggested that humans think that the three dimensions of space and one
dimension of time that weīre used to should be the same everywhere, on all
scales. But, he says, some things in quantum mechanics might transcend our
view of space-time, and we just donīt get to see the whole picture.

"We think space and time are important because thatīs the kind of monkeys we
are," he said.

More information: Salart, D., Baas, A., Branciard, C., Gisin, N. & Zbinden,
H. Nature, 454, 861-864 (2008).

via: Nature Newshttp://www.physorg.com/news137937526.html

Comment:
Approaching the speed of light, the distance between the emitter and
absorber
falls to zero and the interval of transit also falls to zero. *So at the
instant of detection, the two photons are in physical contact and no
transmission of information over a distance occurs.

One might argue that there is no light frame. *But there is a frame for,
say, an electron travelling at c-1/infinity. *The distance two such
electrons travels (as in the above experiment) is 1/infinity and the
interval is 1/infinity seconds. *Thus it is reasonable to extrapolate to the
paired photons and assume that at the instant of detection, the two photons
are separated by a zero distance and zero seconds have passed during the
'transit'.

The paradox is more fundamental. *If two clocks A and B are separated by
some distance (let it be c meters) after synchronisation, then a photon
emitted by A and absorbed by the B will have travelled for 1 second over a
distance of c. *But in the light frame, the photon travelled zero meters in
zero seconds (consider an electron or neutrino travelling at 1/infinity less
than c if the light frame is too objectionable).

The difference in the time on the clocks will be one second ie if A was at
12:00 noon at the time of the photon emission, then B will be at +1s at the
time of the photon absorption. *The problem is that in the light frame (or
the c-1/infinity frame), the two clocks were already showing difference of 1
second with B ahead of A.

But if a photon is emitted by B and absorbed by A, all of the above clock
readings are reversed with A being 1s ahead of B at the time of the emission
and absorption of the photon in the light-like frame.

So how can the two clocks both be 1s ahead of each other? *The answer is
that both alternatives are true until a photon is absorbed (the function
describing both states ie A ahead or B and B ahead of A, collapses to just
one solution when the photon is absorbed in the frame of clocks A and B).

Posted by
Robert Karl Stonjek


As Uncle Al said, the wave function instantaneously collapses into
consistent
observables. Information does not travel FTL. You have to bring the
results together observing the first signal property of light to
determine that correlations occurred. Otherwise, it’s just random
bits of data.

I am going to regret doing this but one way to think about
entanglement was introduced by Dr. John Kramer at the University of
Washington.

http://www.npl.washington.edu/ti/

Nonlocality is explained by the use of advanced and retarded waves.
Advanced waves travel backwards in time while retarded waves travel
forwards in time. TI allows quantum mechanical wave functions to be
interpreted as real waves physically present in spacetime.

--Mike Jr
  #10  
Old August 16th 08, 11:06 AM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity
Ian Macmillan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations


"Uncle Al" wrote in message
...
Robert Karl Stonjek wrote:

Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations

After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists

have
yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than

the
speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope

that
their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations

for
the strange quantum mechanical effect.
[snip crap]


BULL****. The wavefunction instantaneously collpsed into consistent
observables. One Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox dataset contains no
information. Information is contained in the difference of datasets -
and that comparison cannot propagate faster than lightspeed.

The universe is causal. Uneducated people reporting unfounded
allegations don't change that. Get over it.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2


Yes, but isnt it nice to dream about FTL communications that would allow
real time control of robotic atavars on distant worlds. Ah well...

All the best
Ian Macmillan


 




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