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News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations
Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations
After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations for the strange quantum mechanical effect. The physicists, led by Nicolas Gisin from the University of Geneva, arranged their experiment by sending two photons down fiber optic cables to detectors in two Swiss villages located 18 km apart. Both photons started in Geneva, with one heading toward Satigny and the other toward Jussy. The study, which is published in Nature, builds on previous tests published a few months ago in Physical Review Letters. When the researchers measured several properties of each photon at its destination, they found that the particles could instantly sense the otherīs behavior without any known communication. Although this correlation obeys the laws of quantum mechanics, it seems to defy the nature of space and time, at least from humansī everyday perspectives. The physicists ruled out several possible classical explanations for the instantaneous communication. For one thing, they showed that the photons did not share information before leaving Geneva, and so they didnīt travel knowing about each otherīs properties. In another test, the scientists showed that no communication could have occurred through a different reference frame, as might happen because of the photonsī high speeds. According to Einsteinīs theory of relativity, observers moving at high speeds can get different measurements of the same event because they have different reference frames. But, by performing tests over a complete rotation of the Earth, the researchers ruled out this possibility. For now, Gisinīs team doesnīt have a good explanation as to how the seemingly instant correlations happen. Even though it doesnīt make sense to them, they hope that others might one day find a better understanding. In a Nature News story, theorist Terence Rudolph at Imperial College London suggested that humans think that the three dimensions of space and one dimension of time that weīre used to should be the same everywhere, on all scales. But, he says, some things in quantum mechanics might transcend our view of space-time, and we just donīt get to see the whole picture. "We think space and time are important because thatīs the kind of monkeys we are," he said. More information: Salart, D., Baas, A., Branciard, C., Gisin, N. & Zbinden, H. Nature, 454, 861-864 (2008). via: Nature News http://www.physorg.com/news137937526.html Comment: Approaching the speed of light, the distance between the emitter and absorber falls to zero and the interval of transit also falls to zero. So at the instant of detection, the two photons are in physical contact and no transmission of information over a distance occurs. One might argue that there is no light frame. But there is a frame for, say, an electron travelling at c-1/infinity. The distance two such electrons travels (as in the above experiment) is 1/infinity and the interval is 1/infinity seconds. Thus it is reasonable to extrapolate to the paired photons and assume that at the instant of detection, the two photons are separated by a zero distance and zero seconds have passed during the 'transit'. The paradox is more fundamental. If two clocks A and B are separated by some distance (let it be c meters) after synchronisation, then a photon emitted by A and absorbed by the B will have travelled for 1 second over a distance of c. But in the light frame, the photon travelled zero meters in zero seconds (consider an electron or neutrino travelling at 1/infinity less than c if the light frame is too objectionable). The difference in the time on the clocks will be one second ie if A was at 12:00 noon at the time of the photon emission, then B will be at +1s at the time of the photon absorption. The problem is that in the light frame (or the c-1/infinity frame), the two clocks were already showing difference of 1 second with B ahead of A. But if a photon is emitted by B and absorbed by A, all of the above clock readings are reversed with A being 1s ahead of B at the time of the emission and absorption of the photon in the light-like frame. So how can the two clocks both be 1s ahead of each other? The answer is that both alternatives are true until a photon is absorbed (the function describing both states ie A ahead or B and B ahead of A, collapses to just one solution when the photon is absorbed in the frame of clocks A and B). Posted by Robert Karl Stonjek |
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News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations
On Aug 14, 3:59*pm, "Robert Karl Stonjek"
wrote: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations for the strange quantum mechanical effect. The physicists, led by Nicolas Gisin from the University of Geneva, arranged their experiment by sending two photons down fiber optic cables to detectors in two Swiss villages located 18 km apart. Both photons started in Geneva, with one heading toward Satigny and the other toward Jussy. The study, which is published in Nature, builds on previous tests published a few months ago in Physical Review Letters. When the researchers measured several properties of each photon at its destination, they found that the particles could instantly sense the otherīs behavior without any known communication. Although this correlation obeys the laws of quantum mechanics, it seems to defy the nature of space and time, at least from humansī everyday perspectives. The physicists ruled out several possible classical explanations for the instantaneous communication. For one thing, they showed that the photons did not share information before leaving Geneva, and so they didnīt travel knowing about each otherīs properties. In another test, the scientists showed that no communication could have occurred through a different reference frame, as might happen because of the photonsī high speeds. According to Einsteinīs theory of relativity, observers moving at high speeds can get different measurements of the same event because they have different reference frames. But, by performing tests over a complete rotation of the Earth, the researchers ruled out this possibility. For now, Gisinīs team doesnīt have a good explanation as to how the seemingly instant correlations happen. Even though it doesnīt make sense to them, they hope that others might one day find a better understanding. In a Nature News story, theorist Terence Rudolph at Imperial College London suggested that humans think that the three dimensions of space and one dimension of time that weīre used to should be the same everywhere, on all scales. But, he says, some things in quantum mechanics might transcend our view of space-time, and we just donīt get to see the whole picture. "We think space and time are important because thatīs the kind of monkeys we are," he said. More information: Salart, D., Baas, A., Branciard, C., Gisin, N. & Zbinden, H. Nature, 454, 861-864 (2008). via: Nature Newshttp://www.physorg.com/news137937526.html Comment: Approaching the speed of light, the distance between the emitter and absorber falls to zero and the interval of transit also falls to zero. *So at the instant of detection, the two photons are in physical contact and no transmission of information over a distance occurs. One might argue that there is no light frame. *But there is a frame for, say, an electron travelling at c-1/infinity. *The distance two such electrons travels (as in the above experiment) is 1/infinity and the interval is 1/infinity seconds. *Thus it is reasonable to extrapolate to the paired photons and assume that at the instant of detection, the two photons are separated by a zero distance and zero seconds have passed during the 'transit'. The paradox is more fundamental. *If two clocks A and B are separated by some distance (let it be c meters) after synchronisation, then a photon emitted by A and absorbed by the B will have travelled for 1 second over a distance of c. *But in the light frame, the photon travelled zero meters in zero seconds (consider an electron or neutrino travelling at 1/infinity less than c if the light frame is too objectionable). The difference in the time on the clocks will be one second ie if A was at 12:00 noon at the time of the photon emission, then B will be at +1s at the time of the photon absorption. *The problem is that in the light frame (or the c-1/infinity frame), the two clocks were already showing difference of 1 second with B ahead of A. But if a photon is emitted by B and absorbed by A, all of the above clock readings are reversed with A being 1s ahead of B at the time of the emission and absorption of the photon in the light-like frame. So how can the two clocks both be 1s ahead of each other? *The answer is that both alternatives are true until a photon is absorbed (the function describing both states ie A ahead or B and B ahead of A, collapses to just one solution when the photon is absorbed in the frame of clocks A and B). Posted by Robert Karl Stonjek There are many reasons this theory is not capable of explaining this effect. Here are two: 1. This effect is also seen in massive particles at much slower speeds, such as in electrons that may form the basis of quantum communications. 2. Physics must hold in all inertial reference frames, so stating that something works in just one special frame and no others is rubbish (especially in the "rest frame of a photon.") mk |
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Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations
"Robert Karl Stonjek" schrieb im Newsbeitrag ... Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations for the strange quantum mechanical effect. My personal explanation goes like this: I think about a state as a certain pattern. If you take out a chunk, the rest remains. Now we have to think of a photon as a state, that fills some space It is actually a part of a system, if you think of an antisymmetric space. Than to a 'plus state' there is a 'minus state' in opposing direction. Time is now a way, we label certain events. In this case the movement of a photon through empty space. If we think about spacetime a such an antisymmetric space, than we can think of time as a movement of the observer, while the photons move instantanious. This would gain a constant speed of light, because to a timestep we have a spacestep and the relation in vacuum is always the same. Best way to imagine this relation is, to fold a narrow elipse along a diagonal line. The circular speed is in fact infinite, but we experience that as c, since we get moved ourselfs. TH |
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News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations
Comment:
Approaching the speed of light, the distance between the emitter and absorber falls to zero and the interval of transit also falls to zero. So at the instant of detection, the two photons are in physical contact and no transmission of information over a distance occurs. One might argue that there is no light frame. But there is a frame for, say, an electron travelling at c-1/infinity. The distance two such electrons travels (as in the above experiment) is 1/infinity and the interval is 1/infinity seconds. Thus it is reasonable to extrapolate to the paired photons and assume that at the instant of detection, the two photons are separated by a zero distance and zero seconds have passed during the 'transit'. The paradox is more fundamental. If two clocks A and B are separated by some distance (let it be c meters) after synchronisation, then a photon emitted by A and absorbed by the B will have travelled for 1 second over a distance of c. But in the light frame, the photon travelled zero meters in zero seconds (consider an electron or neutrino travelling at 1/infinity less than c if the light frame is too objectionable). The difference in the time on the clocks will be one second ie if A was at 12:00 noon at the time of the photon emission, then B will be at +1s at the time of the photon absorption. The problem is that in the light frame (or the c-1/infinity frame), the two clocks were already showing difference of 1 second with B ahead of A. But if a photon is emitted by B and absorbed by A, all of the above clock readings are reversed with A being 1s ahead of B at the time of the emission and absorption of the photon in the light-like frame. So how can the two clocks both be 1s ahead of each other? The answer is that both alternatives are true until a photon is absorbed (the function describing both states ie A ahead or B and B ahead of A, collapses to just one solution when the photon is absorbed in the frame of clocks A and B). Posted by Robert Karl Stonjek There are many reasons this theory is not capable of explaining this effect. Here are two: 1. This effect is also seen in massive particles at much slower speeds, such as in electrons that may form the basis of quantum communications. 2. Physics must hold in all inertial reference frames, so stating that something works in just one special frame and no others is rubbish (especially in the "rest frame of a photon.") mk RKS: I never said that there were special conditions at c. The same physics that causes length contraction at any speed should also cause length contraction at c or at an infinitely small speed less than c, a speed attainable by electrons and neutrinos, for instance. It is the Relativists that want to exclude relativistic changes at light speed, not me. At c, the photon is not at rest and it is not in motion relative to some other frame. At c, the distance between any two points is zero, so a photon does not travel any distance and there is no interval. This is consistent with a one dimensional view of spacetime that must exist at c ie the transfer of energy, the amount of energy, and the direction of transfer are the only measurable properties. Thus at c, there is no rest frame for light unless we consider the photon as it is before emission and after absorption ie it is nothing more than the energy state of the emitter and absorber. Can you provide a link to the parallel phenomena in electrons? Thanks. Robert |
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News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations
"Robert Karl Stonjek" wrote in message ... Comment: Approaching the speed of light, the distance between the emitter and absorber falls to zero and the interval of transit also falls to zero. So at the instant of detection, the two photons are in physical contact and no transmission of information over a distance occurs. One might argue that there is no light frame. But there is a frame for, say, an electron travelling at c-1/infinity. The distance two such electrons travels (as in the above experiment) is 1/infinity and the interval is 1/infinity seconds. Thus it is reasonable to extrapolate to the paired photons and assume that at the instant of detection, the two photons are separated by a zero distance and zero seconds have passed during the 'transit'. The paradox is more fundamental. If two clocks A and B are separated by some distance (let it be c meters) after synchronisation, then a photon emitted by A and absorbed by the B will have travelled for 1 second over a distance of c. But in the light frame, the photon travelled zero meters in zero seconds (consider an electron or neutrino travelling at 1/infinity less than c if the light frame is too objectionable). The difference in the time on the clocks will be one second ie if A was at 12:00 noon at the time of the photon emission, then B will be at +1s at the time of the photon absorption. The problem is that in the light frame (or the c-1/infinity frame), the two clocks were already showing difference of 1 second with B ahead of A. But if a photon is emitted by B and absorbed by A, all of the above clock readings are reversed with A being 1s ahead of B at the time of the emission and absorption of the photon in the light-like frame. So how can the two clocks both be 1s ahead of each other? The answer is that both alternatives are true until a photon is absorbed (the function describing both states ie A ahead or B and B ahead of A, collapses to just one solution when the photon is absorbed in the frame of clocks A and B). Posted by Robert Karl Stonjek There are many reasons this theory is not capable of explaining this effect. Here are two: 1. This effect is also seen in massive particles at much slower speeds, such as in electrons that may form the basis of quantum communications. 2. Physics must hold in all inertial reference frames, so stating that something works in just one special frame and no others is rubbish (especially in the "rest frame of a photon.") mk RKS: I never said that there were special conditions at c. The same physics that causes length contraction at any speed should also cause length contraction at c or at an infinitely small speed less than c, a speed attainable by electrons and neutrinos, for instance. It is the Relativists that want to exclude relativistic changes at light speed, not me. It is the relativists that want to INCLUDE relativistic changes at ANY speed, what do you want to INCLUDE? |
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News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations
On Aug 14, 9:59 pm, "Robert Karl Stonjek"
wrote: In another test, the scientists showed that no communication could have occurred through a different reference frame, as might happen because of the photonsī high speeds. According to Einsteinīs theory of relativity, observers moving at high speeds can get different measurements of the same event because they have different reference frames. .... For now, Gisinīs team doesnīt have a good explanation as to how the seemingly instant correlations happen. A correlation is not necessarily a communication. A communication is a type of correlation with a causal order: one event happens because the other event is happening. However, a correlation can be caused by a third event which causes both correlated events. Or the correlation can happen due to preselection. Or all sorts of things. I sometimes read about historians arguing over the causal order of human events. When people do the same thing at nearly the same time, one wonders if one was copying the other. They use phrases like "drinking from the same stream." "Drinking from the same stream" is when two people do the same thing because they both copied it from a third person at the same time. Quantum communication is intellectual fascinating and may have some very important application. However, one has to rather careful in quantum communication about tracing a causality chain. Yes, there are physical causes even in high level quantum mechanics. However, the causal chain is sometime not obvious. |
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News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations
Robert Karl Stonjek wrote:
Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations for the strange quantum mechanical effect. [snip crap] BULL****. The wavefunction instantaneously collpsed into consistent observables. One Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox dataset contains no information. Information is contained in the difference of datasets - and that comparison cannot propagate faster than lightspeed. The universe is causal. Uneducated people reporting unfounded allegations don't change that. Get over it. -- Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2 |
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News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations
Robert Karl Stonjek wrote:
Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations for the strange quantum mechanical effect. Various candidate GUTs seem to be treating space-time itself as an atomic structure. So nothing travelling in "space-time" can go faster than light, including light itself. What if these things are travelling in the underlying void? If space-time is atomic, then there must be something even more fundamental underneath it, right? Yousuf Khan |
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News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations
On Aug 14, 9:59*pm, "Robert Karl Stonjek"
wrote: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations for the strange quantum mechanical effect. The physicists, led by Nicolas Gisin from the University of Geneva, arranged their experiment by sending two photons down fiber optic cables to detectors in two Swiss villages located 18 km apart. Both photons started in Geneva, with one heading toward Satigny and the other toward Jussy. The study, which is published in Nature, builds on previous tests published a few months ago in Physical Review Letters. When the researchers measured several properties of each photon at its destination, they found that the particles could instantly sense the otherīs behavior without any known communication. Although this correlation obeys the laws of quantum mechanics, it seems to defy the nature of space and time, at least from humansī everyday perspectives. The physicists ruled out several possible classical explanations for the instantaneous communication. For one thing, they showed that the photons did not share information before leaving Geneva, and so they didnīt travel knowing about each otherīs properties. In another test, the scientists showed that no communication could have occurred through a different reference frame, as might happen because of the photonsī high speeds. According to Einsteinīs theory of relativity, observers moving at high speeds can get different measurements of the same event because they have different reference frames. But, by performing tests over a complete rotation of the Earth, the researchers ruled out this possibility. For now, Gisinīs team doesnīt have a good explanation as to how the seemingly instant correlations happen. Even though it doesnīt make sense to them, they hope that others might one day find a better understanding. In a Nature News story, theorist Terence Rudolph at Imperial College London suggested that humans think that the three dimensions of space and one dimension of time that weīre used to should be the same everywhere, on all scales. But, he says, some things in quantum mechanics might transcend our view of space-time, and we just donīt get to see the whole picture. "We think space and time are important because thatīs the kind of monkeys we are," he said. More information: Salart, D., Baas, A., Branciard, C., Gisin, N. & Zbinden, H. Nature, 454, 861-864 (2008). via: Nature Newshttp://www.physorg.com/news137937526.html Comment: Approaching the speed of light, the distance between the emitter and absorber falls to zero and the interval of transit also falls to zero. *So at the instant of detection, the two photons are in physical contact and no transmission of information over a distance occurs. One might argue that there is no light frame. *But there is a frame for, say, an electron travelling at c-1/infinity. *The distance two such electrons travels (as in the above experiment) is 1/infinity and the interval is 1/infinity seconds. *Thus it is reasonable to extrapolate to the paired photons and assume that at the instant of detection, the two photons are separated by a zero distance and zero seconds have passed during the 'transit'. The paradox is more fundamental. *If two clocks A and B are separated by some distance (let it be c meters) after synchronisation, then a photon emitted by A and absorbed by the B will have travelled for 1 second over a distance of c. *But in the light frame, the photon travelled zero meters in zero seconds (consider an electron or neutrino travelling at 1/infinity less than c if the light frame is too objectionable). The difference in the time on the clocks will be one second ie if A was at 12:00 noon at the time of the photon emission, then B will be at +1s at the time of the photon absorption. *The problem is that in the light frame (or the c-1/infinity frame), the two clocks were already showing difference of 1 second with B ahead of A. But if a photon is emitted by B and absorbed by A, all of the above clock readings are reversed with A being 1s ahead of B at the time of the emission and absorption of the photon in the light-like frame. So how can the two clocks both be 1s ahead of each other? *The answer is that both alternatives are true until a photon is absorbed (the function describing both states ie A ahead or B and B ahead of A, collapses to just one solution when the photon is absorbed in the frame of clocks A and B). Posted by Robert Karl Stonjek As Uncle Al said, the wave function instantaneously collapses into consistent observables. Information does not travel FTL. You have to bring the results together observing the first signal property of light to determine that correlations occurred. Otherwise, its just random bits of data. I am going to regret doing this but one way to think about entanglement was introduced by Dr. John Kramer at the University of Washington. http://www.npl.washington.edu/ti/ Nonlocality is explained by the use of advanced and retarded waves. Advanced waves travel backwards in time while retarded waves travel forwards in time. TI allows quantum mechanical wave functions to be interpreted as real waves physically present in spacetime. --Mike Jr |
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News: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations
"Uncle Al" wrote in message ... Robert Karl Stonjek wrote: Physicists Seek Answers to Quantum Correlations After performing multiple tests on two entangled photons, physicists have yet again found that the photons seem to be communicating faster than the speed of light - at least 100,000 times faster. The researchers hope that their results might encourage theorists to come up with new explanations for the strange quantum mechanical effect. [snip crap] BULL****. The wavefunction instantaneously collpsed into consistent observables. One Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen paradox dataset contains no information. Information is contained in the difference of datasets - and that comparison cannot propagate faster than lightspeed. The universe is causal. Uneducated people reporting unfounded allegations don't change that. Get over it. -- Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2 Yes, but isnt it nice to dream about FTL communications that would allow real time control of robotic atavars on distant worlds. Ah well... All the best Ian Macmillan |
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