How cool is VL2

On Apr 8, 2:39 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:
In sci.physics,

wrote
on 8 Apr 2007 13:25:39 -0700
.com:





On Apr 8, 10:46 am, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:
In sci.physics,
Venus is NOT too hot to touch, at least not with the Ovglove.

Touching Venus is the least of one's worries. The Ovglove
is an oven mitt; to properly characterize the issue one
would have to preheat the oven at the "Super Dooper Hot
Broil" setting (about 860 F), step inside the oven (which,
since this is a thought experiment, would be a walk-in
affair), close the door, and wait for an hour or so.

One is allowed to wear an Ovglove body suit, if one wishes.

To be fair, the atmosphere would have to be extremely dry
within the oven, so one is allowed to sweat (and there are
materials that "breathe", allowing water out; presumably
the Ovglove can be suitably modified); of course, there is
the little issue of replenishing that sweat. I'd frankly
doubt if the "wind chill" factor would be enough to
dissipate sufficient heat to keep the Ovglove wearer alive.

And then there's the little issue of breathing.
Where would the oxygen come from?

The good news: one might be able to read a book without too
much trouble; the lack of O2 within the Venusian atmosphere
should preclude its flashing into flame. Also, surface
gravity shouldn't be too much above 9.805 N/kg.

(Assuming one's brain isn't fried, of course.)

The GOOGLE/Usenet takes in, but lo and behold their topic index of
replies doesn't indicate this following contribution, so I'll try it
once again.

Obviously I Ovglove jest, and obviously the co2--co/o2 (same process
as working on behalf of the Mars mission fiasco) is where the local
needs of whatever O2 is to be found, except in easily available bulk.
The last time I'd checked, Venus had a touch more than its fair share
of co2 (kept nicely bone dry and process preheated to boot), and
otherwise having way more than its fair share of locally renewable
energy to burn (sort of speak), so that you don't have to bother
packing along a nuclear reactor, and at that local pressure your body
doesn't even require all that much O2 (just lots of ice cold beer).

So OK then. How does one convert CO2 to O2 in a 9.3 MPa, 860F
environment?







Before doing Venus in whatever cozy Ovglove protected person, even
though a composite rigid airship/shuttle or whatever 'tomcat' fat-
waverider should more than do the trick, whereas Venus L2 is offering
us the very next best available ticket to ride, and without such
involving any Ovgloves.

Venus L2(VL2) is in fact a POOF friendly and thus offering a
technically worthy location for an entire collective or community of
such inflated habitat items, that can be made quite livable for each
of those 19+ month missions, especially if getting shielded by an
extra meter or more of beer. Obviously I beer jest, as such required
shield density could be accomplished via Gin or Vodka, and
subsequently replaced by good old reliable pee. (waste not, want not)

Only the systematically perverted mindset of this mostly Old Testament
Usenet from naysay hell, that is in any formal disagreement as based
entirely upon their own faith-based crapolla, are of what's getting
this notion terminated, by way of those intent upon keeping all of
those mutually perpetrated cold-war and religious hocus-pocus lids on
tight, as for otherwise their having been focused upon topic/author
bashings, diverting and/or their total banishing upon all that's
Venus. (I think it's mostly a silly Old Testament Jewish thing, along
with those crazy Catholics and a few other cults bringing up the rear)

Unfortunately, ESA's Venus EXPRESS(VIRTIS) mission is keeping itself
every bit as dead as that of whatever our MI/NSA~NASA wants it to be
dead. The thermal imaging data from their robust PFS instrument has
been kept entirely taboo/nondisclosure rated (aka need to know) from
the very get go.

The surface of Venus is still giving off the average of 20.5 w/m2
(roughly 256 fold greater core energy loss than Earth), and the lower
atmospheric environment of Venus (below them relatively cool acidic
clouds) as having in fact been rather nicely insulated at that, as
well as for having incorporated that fairly robust S8 layer as being
an extra nifty solar isolation benefit, so that damn little of the
available solar IR influx ever reaches that geothermally forced
surface or even contributing all that much solar energy into that
dense lower atmosphere, of what's mostly a thick vapor/dry mixture of
S8 and CO2, that's otherwise unavoidably made available and sustained
as being toasty hot from whatever just below the geothermal surface on
up.

Venus is NOT getting solar roasted to death, at least not entirely if
hardly so.

ESA's sorry as hell "status reports" are all the way down to being
robo status quo. It's as though they're down to the science data
sharing dregs of a pair of soup cans and some string.

ESA's mission demise is too bad because, Venus has otherwise been so
nearby (at times merely 100 fold greater distance than our moon), so
otherwise planetology alive and kicking, as well as so ET accessible
(except for the likes of us village heathen idiots that still can't
honestly manage to walk upon our very own nearby moon, and much less
dare live to tell about it w/o involving banked bone marrow).

BTW; why are those other "The Ghost In The Machine" minions so
entirely screwed up?

There's only one, and it's me. :-P Unless I have some strange groupies
attempting to follow my tail or something (STOP THAT OUT THERE YOU
STRANGE GROUPIES! :-) ).

In any event, you are postulating a trip to Venus L2 from Earth, are you
not? This is fine, but one will have to work out exactly how much one
has to transport (are we talking 1 human, 1 family, 1 dozen families, 1
million families, all of humanity?) plus sufficient resources to keep
them alive, starting with a method by which they'd generate electric
power (recall that VL2 is in virtual shadow; the best they might hope
for there is some atmospheric refraction, if that), and whatever else
is needed to get them from here to there.

-
BradGuth

--
#191,
Useless C++ Programming Idea #104392:
for(int i = 0; i 1000000; i++) sleep(0);

--
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Part - 2 - Life at VL2

Surviving at VL2's POOF city is offering somewhat tenuous odds, as
rather dependent upon how much shield is accomplishing how much actual
good, and of the naked physical truth of having to avoid whatever is
passing nearby or through your POOF that has your name on it.
Otherwise this POOF city should be nearly as safe as ISS, although
without benefit of a magnetosphere as shield from those waves upon
waves of solar wind that's continually blowing the upper atmospheric
stuff of Venus directly your way, is perhaps a bit more of an unknown.

The to/from commute is by itself another potentially testy what-if, or
at best a somewhat iffy consideration, that's likely worth a good 6
months that'll add to your time and unavoidable TBI in space, along
with the 16~18 months spent at VL2. I'm not sure if banked bone
marrow will be sufficient, but I certainly would not bother going
without taking along a well isolated N2 frozen soild cache of my own
bone marrow.

Two years worth of serious BO and other unavoidable considerations may
be asking a bit much from most of us. Possibly at best that amount of
time spent off-world can be cut down to 21 months, though don't count
on it, as if anything it's more than likely going to take a combined
30+ months, and that's if nothing goes terribly wrong. Still all and
all, VL2 being within 100 fold the distance of our moon each and every
19 months isn't imposing 5% of what doing Mars is all about.

We can even utilize our gamma and hard-Xray shedding moon itself as a
gravity boosted exit phace in getting to VL2, and upon our return we
should be able once again to utilize that pesky mascon of a moon as
our gravity parking brake. Because the moon only has that thin sodium
and argon atmosphere to deal with, as such the near miss passage for
achieving the best gravity affect can be safely taken to within a few
km off that moon's physically dark and nasty surface.

As for accomplishing Venus itself is not worth hardly 10% of doing
Mars, as well as representing an absolute win-win for those planning
upon staying for the remainder of their life, as for the notions of
ever returning from any such other world or spore and virus infested
moon is actually not such a good option, that is unless losing a few
hundred million folks upon Earth from whatever can easily infect our
frail environment and otherwise traumatise our poorly engineered DNA
(that'll have not a clue as to how to go about protecting ourselves
from whatever weird little forms of such ET micro life), as for such a
biological what-if being a potentially moral and/or ethical problem,
especially if it were derived from whatever was robust enough for
having been associated with that other planet or moon, shouldn't be
excluded from this or any other argument.

Too bad we don't have those station keeping robust habitats at our
moon's L1 for safely accommodating such crew and passengers returning
from whatever other worlds or moons, or better yet of there being
something deep underground upon our salty moon would become nearly the
ideal biological isolation, offering the ultimate solution that's
close enough to home to suit for all but physical contact.
-
Brad Guth

If your DNA doesn't like those nasty energy spectrums of gamma and
Xrays, then by all means POOF VL2 and/or best the toasty surface of,
or for certain that of cruising just above the deck of Venus is for
you.

For other than having to cope with the little extra to/from commute,
POOF VL2 is better off than anything related to surviving onboard ISS/
ESS, however for those souls brave enough for getting situated well
enough below those relatively cool nighttime clouds of Venus, is by
far offering the most solar and/or cosmic energy isolation in town.

Unless Venus itself is terribly radioactive (of which in spots like
our cosmic and solar energy collective morgue of a moon has to deal
with, whereas Venus most certainly should be in places rather nicely
radioactive since it's somewhat newer than Earth to begin with),
whereas you and your frail DNA would be much better off situated below
such acidic clouds or possibly as directly upon the toasty surface of
Venus (not each and every m2 is as hot as the next), as offering fewer
rad/year and thereby better off for our frail DNA than living on Earth
that's losing its protective magnetosphere at the ongoing demise of -.
05%/year, of which will only further lead our badly failing
environment towards more atmospheric tonnage loss from that point on,
thereby compounding as to further affecting our loss of solar/cosmic
shield benefits, that which our frail DNA can barely manage as is to
survive without showing signs of skin and internal DNA damage.

However, at the nearly 100 bar nighttime worth of the Venusian surface
environment, whereas that thick and terribly buoyant S8/Co2 atmosphere
is going to provide an extremely good amount of shield density against
whatever's locally radioactive. Therefore, even up against some of
the most radioactive locations on Venus are not going to impose all
that much local trauma to those of us in our cozy Ovglove jump suits,
or much less affecting those of us cruising efficiently nearby in our
composite rigid airship.

There's actually much fewer negative aspects of artificially
sustaining life on Venus than positive ones. Most everything about
Venus is actually working on our behalf, including the matter of fact
that's its often so extremely nearby, and otherwise just as it has
been doing so on behalf of accommodating those other smart ETs or
possibly locals as having been doing their natural thing in a very big
and obvious way.
-
Brad Guth

Too bad the truth as to Venus L2 can't even be allowed to surface, at
least not without having to take a serious butt load of mainstream
flak, much the same as for sharing anything about our moon's L1.

Now we're getting the GOOGLE "Server Error" message, as yet another
remote method of keeping those perpetrated cold-war lids on tight. I
guess it's yet another MI/NSA Jewish butt saving thing.

Usenet butt dragging is obviously working, at keeping some of us
honest folks from posting more than our fair share.
-
Brad Guth

The GOOGLE/Usenet takes in, but lo and behold their topic index of
replies doesn't always indicate the likes of this following
contribution, so I'll try it once again for the old gipper.

Obviously I Ovglove jest, and obviously the co2--co/o2 (same process
as working on behalf of the Mars mission fiasco) is where the local
needs of whatever O2 is to be found, except in easily available bulk.
The last time I'd checked, Venus had a touch more than its fair share
of co2 (kept nicely bone dry and process preheated to boot), and
otherwise having way more than its fair share of locally renewable
energy to burn (sort of speak), so that you don't have to bother
packing along a nuclear reactor, and at that local pressure your body
doesn't even require all that much O2 (just lots of ice cold beer).

Before doing Venus in whatever cozy Ovglove protected person, even
though a composite rigid airship/shuttle or whatever 'tomcat' fat-
waverider should more than do the trick, whereas Venus L2 is offering
us the very next best available ticket to ride, and without such
involving any Ovgloves.

Venus L2(VL2) is in fact a POOF friendly and thus offering a
technically worthy location for an entire collective or community of
such inflated habitat items, that can be made quite livable for each
of those 19+ month missions, especially if getting shielded by an
extra meter or more of beer. Obviously I beer jest, as such required
shield density could be accomplished via Gin or Vodka, and
subsequently replaced by good old reliable pee. (waste not, want not)

Only the systematically perverted mindset of this mostly Old Testament
Usenet from naysay hell, that is in any formal disagreement as based
entirely upon their own faith-based crapolla, are of what's getting
this notion terminated, by way of those intent upon keeping all of
those mutually perpetrated cold-war and religious hocus-pocus lids on
tight, as for otherwise their having been focused upon topic/author
bashings, diverting and/or their total banishing upon all that's
Venus. (I think it's mostly a silly Old Testament Jewish thing, along
with those crazy Catholics and a few other cults bringing up the rear)

Unfortunately, ESA's Venus EXPRESS(VIRTIS) mission is keeping itself
every bit as dead as that of whatever our MI/NSA~NASA wants it to be
dead. The thermal imaging data from their robust PFS instrument has
been kept entirely taboo/nondisclosure rated (aka need to know) from
the very get go.

The surface of Venus is still giving off the average of 20.5 w/m2
(roughly 256 fold greater core energy loss than Earth), and the lower
atmospheric environment of Venus (below them relatively cool acidic
clouds) as having in fact been rather nicely insulated at that, as
well as for having incorporated that fairly robust S8 layer as being
an extra nifty solar isolation benefit, so that damn little of the
available solar IR influx ever reaches that geothermally forced
surface or even contributing all that much solar energy into that
dense lower atmosphere, of what's mostly a thick vapor/dry mixture of
S8 and CO2, that's otherwise unavoidably made available and sustained
as being toasty hot from whatever just below the geothermal surface on
up.

Venus is NOT getting solar roasted to death, at least not entirely if
hardly so.

ESA's sorry as hell "status reports" are all the way down to being
robo status quo. It's as though they're down to the science data
sharing dregs of a pair of soup cans and some string.

ESA's mission demise is too bad because, Venus has otherwise been so
nearby (at times merely 100 fold greater distance than our moon), so
otherwise planetology alive and kicking, as well as so ET accessible
(except for the likes of us village heathen idiots that still can't
honestly manage to walk upon our very own nearby moon, and much less
dare live to tell about it w/o involving banked bone marrow).

BTW; why are those other "The Ghost In The Machine" minions so
entirely screwed up?
-
Brad Guth

On Apr 8, 2:39 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:
So OK then. How does one convert CO2 to O2 in a 9.3 MPa, 860F
environment?

The same exact technical process as for doing Mars, except you don't
have to import a nuclear reactor for accommodating the necessary
process energy, nor having to wait for a year's worth of processing to
take place, and therefore roughly less than 1% the cost and
complications of doing Mars. I can't recall each of the technical
steps in that process of converting co2 back into the raw elements of
co/o2, but it's posted on the internet by the likes of Dr. Zubrin and
several others if we ever need to know such specifics.


In any event, you are postulating a trip to Venus L2 from Earth, are you
not?

Yes, why the hell not? After all, VL2 is rather nearby every 19
months.


This is fine, but one will have to work out exactly how much one
has to transport (are we talking 1 human, 1 family, 1 dozen families, 1
million families, all of humanity?) plus sufficient resources to keep
them alive, starting with a method by which they'd generate electric
power (recall that VL2 is in virtual shadow; the best they might hope
for there is some atmospheric refraction, if that), and whatever else
is needed to get them from here to there.

Even though VL2 is a relatively cool parking spot, there's actually a
bit more solar energy to behold while cruising within VL2 than you
might tend to think. It's also a halo orbit worth of station-keeping,
therefore you can expect and/or control as much solar energy influx as
you might need for those banks of PV cells to function, of which such
PV panels can be tethered out a good few km in whatever direction if
need be. Besides, the VL2 energy budget per accommodating each
individual shouldn't be 10% of the ISS energy budget that has to deal
with so much extra solar and secondary earthshine issues, along with
the little extra amount of IR/FIR that's coming off our moon.

Each POOF having it's own set of ION thrusters is what gives this
community of POOFs the collective borg like advantage, as well as
multiple forms of backup, and perhaps if all goes well enough, at most
we should only have to chuck two or three of the original manifest of
crew and passengers due to whatever unavoidable complications.

For argument sake, let us go for a bakers dozen (aka 13 souls, at
least 10 of which can be paying passengers), and remember that there
should also be more than a few corporate/commercial sponsors, such as
the various pizza, beers, self sealing barf-bags and on behalf of
those extreme containment diaper manufacturers.

To begin with, just pack as much pizza and ice cold beer as possible
along for the ride, the rest will follow suit. We can charge our
clients at least $100 million each (one way, as they'll have to fork
over another $100 million if they ever plan on returning to Earth).

The likes of wizard 'tomcat' will gladly R&D and supply his fat-
waverider or whatever go-fast SuperSkylon, or perhaps going for the do-
everything form of a composite rigid airship, although others are
likely more qualified. Bigelow and Russia or perhaps via China will
deal with creating and getting those nifty POOFs into place (a minimum
of 3 POOFs, although a community of 5 POOFs might be best since we'll
need at least one POOF for accommodating all of that pizza and beer,
with one other unit serving as their loony bin POOF, and of course
their SuperSkylon transporter standing nearby as their eventual ride
home, and/or possible OOPS! Plan-B get away)
-

Part - 2 - Life at VL2 is cool

Surviving at VL2's POOF city is offering somewhat tenuous odds, as
rather dependent upon how much shield is accomplishing how much actual
good, and of the naked physical truth of having to avoid whatever is
passing nearby or through your POOF that has your name on it.
Otherwise this POOF city should be nearly as safe as ISS, although
without benefit of a magnetosphere as shield from those waves upon
waves of solar wind that's continually blowing the upper atmospheric
stuff of Venus directly your way, is perhaps a bit more of an unknown.

The to/from commute is by itself another potentially testy what-if, or
at best a somewhat iffy consideration, that's likely worth a good 6
months that'll add to your time and unavoidable TBI in space, along
with the 16~18 months spent at VL2. I'm not sure if banked bone
marrow will be sufficient, but I certainly would not bother going
without taking along a well isolated N2 frozen soild cache of my own
bone marrow.

Two years worth of serious BO and other unavoidable considerations may
be asking a bit much from most of us. Possibly at best that amount of
time spent off-world can be cut down to 21 months, though don't count
on it, as if anything it's more than likely going to take a combined
30+ months, and that's if nothing goes terribly wrong. Still all and
all, VL2 being within 100 fold the distance of our moon each and every
19 months isn't imposing 5% of what doing Mars is all about.

We can even utilize our gamma and hard-Xray shedding moon itself as a
gravity boosted exit phace in getting to VL2, and upon our return we
should be able once again to utilize that pesky mascon of a moon as
our gravity parking brake. Because the moon only has that thin sodium
and argon atmosphere to deal with, as such the near miss passage for
achieving the best gravity affect can be safely taken to within a few
km off that moon's physically dark and nasty surface.

As for accomplishing Venus itself is not worth hardly 10% of doing
Mars, as well as representing an absolute win-win for those planning
upon staying for the remainder of their life, as for the notions of
ever returning from any such other world or spore and virus infested
moon is actually not such a good option, that is unless losing a few
hundred million folks upon Earth from whatever can easily infect our
frail environment and otherwise traumatise our poorly engineered DNA
(that'll have not a clue as to how to go about protecting ourselves
from whatever weird little forms of such ET micro life), as for such a
biological what-if being a potentially moral and/or ethical problem,
especially if it were derived from whatever was robust enough for
having been associated with that other planet or moon, shouldn't be
excluded from this or any other argument.

Too bad we don't have those station keeping robust habitats at our
moon's L1 for safely accommodating such crew and passengers returning
from whatever other worlds or moons, or better yet of there being
something deep underground upon our salty moon would become nearly the
ideal biological isolation, offering the ultimate solution that's
close enough to home to suit for all but physical contact.
-
Brad Guth

As far as most of us village idiots can manage to tell from the best
available science, there's nothing all that entirely insurmountable
about Venus, and that analogy especially goes for Venus L2 that is
simply an absolute terrific win-win for the old gipper of humanly
obtained science.

If your DNA doesn't happen to like those nasty cosmic and solar energy
spectrums of gamma and Xrays (especially of those associated with our
moon), then by all means the destination space-depot or gateway of
POOF VL2, and/or of otherwise best going for the actual toasty surface
of, or for certain that of merely cruising just above the geothermal
toasty deck of Venus in your composite rigid airship is just the
ticket for you (that way you'll not even have to test your Ovglove
jump suit).

For other than having to cope with the little extra to/from commute,
POOF VL2 is better off than anything related to surviving onboard ISS/
ESS, however for those souls brave enough for getting situated well
enough below those relatively cool nighttime clouds of Venus, is by
far offering the most solar and/or cosmic energy isolation in town.

Unless Venus itself is terribly radioactive (of which in spots like
our cosmic and solar energy collective morgue of a moon has to deal
with, whereas Venus most certainly should be in places rather nicely
radioactive since it's somewhat newer than Earth to begin with),
whereas you and your frail DNA would be much better off situated below
such acidic clouds or possibly as directly upon the toasty surface of
Venus (not each and every m2 is as hot as the next), as offering fewer
rad/year and thereby better off for our frail DNA than living on Earth
that's losing its protective magnetosphere at the ongoing demise of -.
05%/year, of which will only further lead our badly failing
environment towards more atmospheric tonnage loss from that point on,
thereby compounding as to further affecting our loss of solar/cosmic
shield benefits, that which our frail DNA can barely manage as is to
survive without showing signs of skin and internal DNA damage.

However, at the nearly 100 bar nighttime season worth of the Venusian
surface environment, whereas that thick and terribly buoyant S8/Co2
atmosphere is going to provide an extremely good amount of shield
density against whatever's locally radioactive. Therefore, even up
against some of the most radioactive of locations on Venus are not
going to impose all that much local trauma to those of us in our cozy
Ovglove jump suits, or much less affecting those of us cruising
efficiently nearby in our composite rigid airship.

To honestly ponder, there's actually much fewer of those negative
aspects of artificially sustaining life on Venus than positive ones.
Most everything about Venus is actually working on our behalf,
including the matter of fact that's its often so extremely nearby, and
otherwise directly usable as is, just as it has been doing so on
behalf of accommodating those other smart ETs or possibly locals as
having been doing their natural thing in a very big and obvious way.
-
Brad Guth

In sci.physics,

wrote
on 10 Apr 2007 12:24:22 -0700
.com:
On Apr 8, 2:39 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:
So OK then. How does one convert CO2 to O2 in a 9.3 MPa, 860F
environment?

The same exact technical process as for doing Mars, except you don't
have to import a nuclear reactor for accommodating the necessary
process energy, nor having to wait for a year's worth of processing to
take place, and therefore roughly less than 1% the cost and
complications of doing Mars. I can't recall each of the technical
steps in that process of converting co2 back into the raw elements of
co/o2, but it's posted on the internet by the likes of Dr. Zubrin and
several others if we ever need to know such specifics.

Erm, the raw elements of CO2 are C and O2. CO is carbon monoxide.




In any event, you are postulating a trip to Venus L2 from Earth, are you
not?

Yes, why the hell not? After all, VL2 is rather nearby every 19
months.


This is fine, but one will have to work out exactly how much one
has to transport (are we talking 1 human, 1 family, 1 dozen families, 1
million families, all of humanity?) plus sufficient resources to keep
them alive, starting with a method by which they'd generate electric
power (recall that VL2 is in virtual shadow; the best they might hope
for there is some atmospheric refraction, if that), and whatever else
is needed to get them from here to there.

Even though VL2 is a relatively cool parking spot, there's actually a
bit more solar energy to behold while cruising within VL2 than you
might tend to think. It's also a halo orbit worth of station-keeping,
therefore you can expect and/or control as much solar energy influx as
you might need for those banks of PV cells to function, of which such
PV panels can be tethered out a good few km in whatever direction if
need be. Besides, the VL2 energy budget per accommodating each
individual shouldn't be 10% of the ISS energy budget that has to deal
with so much extra solar and secondary earthshine issues, along with
the little extra amount of IR/FIR that's coming off our moon.

Each POOF having it's own set of ION thrusters is what gives this
community of POOFs the collective borg like advantage, as well as
multiple forms of backup, and perhaps if all goes well enough, at most
we should only have to chuck two or three of the original manifest of
crew and passengers due to whatever unavoidable complications.

For argument sake, let us go for a bakers dozen (aka 13 souls, at
least 10 of which can be paying passengers), and remember that there
should also be more than a few corporate/commercial sponsors, such as
the various pizza, beers, self sealing barf-bags and on behalf of
those extreme containment diaper manufacturers.

To begin with, just pack as much pizza and ice cold beer as possible
along for the ride, the rest will follow suit. We can charge our
clients at least $100 million each (one way, as they'll have to fork
over another $100 million if they ever plan on returning to Earth).

The likes of wizard 'tomcat' will gladly R&D and supply his fat-
waverider or whatever go-fast SuperSkylon, or perhaps going for the do-
everything form of a composite rigid airship, although others are
likely more qualified. Bigelow and Russia or perhaps via China will
deal with creating and getting those nifty POOFs into place (a minimum
of 3 POOFs, although a community of 5 POOFs might be best since we'll
need at least one POOF for accommodating all of that pizza and beer,
with one other unit serving as their loony bin POOF, and of course
their SuperSkylon transporter standing nearby as their eventual ride
home, and/or possible OOPS! Plan-B get away)
-

Part - 2 - Life at VL2 is cool

Surviving at VL2's POOF city is offering somewhat tenuous odds, as
rather dependent upon how much shield is accomplishing how much actual
good, and of the naked physical truth of having to avoid whatever is
passing nearby or through your POOF that has your name on it.
Otherwise this POOF city should be nearly as safe as ISS, although
without benefit of a magnetosphere as shield from those waves upon
waves of solar wind that's continually blowing the upper atmospheric
stuff of Venus directly your way, is perhaps a bit more of an unknown.

The lack of magnetosphere shouldn't be a problem, though I'd have to
research the issue; most of the danger comes from the Sun, which is
occluded.


The to/from commute is by itself another potentially testy what-if, or
at best a somewhat iffy consideration, that's likely worth a good 6
months that'll add to your time and unavoidable TBI in space, along
with the 16~18 months spent at VL2. I'm not sure if banked bone
marrow will be sufficient, but I certainly would not bother going
without taking along a well isolated N2 frozen soild cache of my own
bone marrow.

Two years worth of serious BO and other unavoidable considerations may
be asking a bit much from most of us.

Two words: recycled water. In any event some bright NASA sort should
be able to figure out a zero-gee shower at some point, though the
current space crew have to make do with sponge baths.

Possibly at best that amount of
time spent off-world can be cut down to 21 months, though don't count
on it, as if anything it's more than likely going to take a combined
30+ months, and that's if nothing goes terribly wrong. Still all and
all, VL2 being within 100 fold the distance of our moon each and every
19 months isn't imposing 5% of what doing Mars is all about.

We can even utilize our gamma and hard-Xray shedding moon itself as a
gravity boosted exit phace in getting to VL2, and upon our return we
should be able once again to utilize that pesky mascon of a moon as
our gravity parking brake.

Only if one want to expose the participants to gamma and hard X rays.

Because the moon only has that thin sodium
and argon atmosphere to deal with, as such the near miss passage for
achieving the best gravity affect can be safely taken to within a few
km off that moon's physically dark and nasty surface.

As for accomplishing Venus itself is not worth hardly 10% of doing
Mars, as well as representing an absolute win-win for those planning
upon staying for the remainder of their life, as for the notions of
ever returning from any such other world or spore and virus infested
moon is actually not such a good option, that is unless losing a few
hundred million folks upon Earth from whatever can easily infect our
frail environment and otherwise traumatise our poorly engineered DNA
(that'll have not a clue as to how to go about protecting ourselves
from whatever weird little forms of such ET micro life), as for such a
biological what-if being a potentially moral and/or ethical problem,
especially if it were derived from whatever was robust enough for
having been associated with that other planet or moon, shouldn't be
excluded from this or any other argument.

Too bad we don't have those station keeping robust habitats at our
moon's L1 for safely accommodating such crew and passengers returning
from whatever other worlds or moons, or better yet of there being
something deep underground upon our salty moon would become nearly the
ideal biological isolation, offering the ultimate solution that's
close enough to home to suit for all but physical contact.

We can put them there, if you like. It's mostly a question of boost.

-
Brad Guth



--
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try our new color changing variant?

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Apr 10, 9:36 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:
In sci.physics,

wrote
on 10 Apr 2007 12:24:22 -0700
.com:

On Apr 8, 2:39 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:
So OK then. How does one convert CO2 to O2 in a 9.3 MPa, 860F
environment?

The same exact technical process as for doing Mars, except you don't
have to import a nuclear reactor for accommodating the necessary
process energy, nor having to wait for a year's worth of processing to
take place, and therefore roughly less than 1% the cost and
complications of doing Mars. I can't recall each of the technical
steps in that process of converting co2 back into the raw elements of
co/o2, but it's posted on the internet by the likes of Dr. Zubrin and
several others if we ever need to know such specifics.

Erm, the raw elements of CO2 are C and O2. CO is carbon monoxide.

I do believe CO can be obtained as one of the CO2 process options, and
is actually a perfectly usable rocket fuel, though I'm informed that
it's not terribly thrust efficient nor clean to burn (perhaps worth
more noise than thrust, but human hearing would likely have been
intentionally disabled anyway).

At nearly 100 bar, the human need of O2 isn't going to be 1%, with the
remainder as H2 and we're good to go (actually as little as 0.5% O2
and 99.5% H2 should be doable). Venus has no actual shortage of O2 or
H2, or actually there's no shortage of easily extracting teratonnes
worth h2o from those relatively cool acidic clouds above the S8 layer,
therefore h2o2 seems perfectly doable.


Surviving at VL2's POOF city is offering somewhat tenuous odds, as
rather dependent upon how much shield is accomplishing how much actual
good, and of the naked physical truth of having to avoid whatever is
passing nearby or through your POOF that has your name on it.
Otherwise this POOF city should be nearly as safe as ISS, although
without benefit of a magnetosphere as shield from those waves upon
waves of solar wind that's continually blowing the upper atmospheric
stuff of Venus directly your way, is perhaps a bit more of an unknown.

The lack of magnetosphere shouldn't be a problem, though I'd have to
research the issue; most of the danger comes from the Sun, which is
occluded.

The peak spectrum of available solar energy is actually worth nearly 4
kw/m2, but as you say, most of that potential energy (including the
very worse of halo CMEs) is being nicely isolated and/or diverted by
way of Venus staying in the way.


We can even utilize our gamma and hard-Xray shedding moon itself as a
gravity boosted exit phase in getting to VL2, and upon our return we
should be able once again to utilize that pesky mascon of a moon as
our gravity parking brake.

Only if one want to expose the participants to gamma and hard X rays.

That is true, but we'd likely be going like a freaking bat out of
hell, perhaps trekking out of town at 30+ km/s, which doesn't give our
frail DNA all that much time of gamma and hard Xray TBI exposure to
our naked moon that's so terribly reactive plus being a little extra
radioactive to boot.

In returning from VL2, the gravity braking maneuver(s) of another
close swing or two past our nasty moon would also be accomplished at a
fairly great deal of velocity, therefore once again our frail DNA
shouldn't get traumatised past the point of no return if we're only
talking about adding minutes or perhaps seconds worth of peak exposure
as to whatever cobalt hard or even titanium soft gamma that moon as to
deliver.


Too bad we don't have those station keeping robust habitats at our
moon's L1 for safely accommodating such crew and passengers returning
from whatever other worlds or moons, or better yet of there being
something deep underground upon our salty moon would become nearly the
ideal biological isolation, offering the ultimate solution that's
close enough to home to suit for all but physical contact.

We can put them there, if you like. It's mostly a question of boost.

I would very much like that, especially if this effort can start off
with getting a 10,000 kg package parked into the moon's L1, with more
features and possibly habitat added as time and resources allow (AKA
somewhat Clarke Station).

I agree, in that possibly a boost of using roughly a 120:1 ratio of
rocket per payload should accomplish the deployment task quickly
enough, whereas otherwise if being of a robotic platform of science
instruments, whereas it could be given a lunar month to get there, in
which case perhaps as little as a modern 80:1 ratio of a sufficiently
low inert mass worth of rocket/payload should more than do the trick.

You folks wouldn't happen to have a spare rocket sitting around?
-
Brad Guth

In sci.physics,

wrote
on 11 Apr 2007 11:52:41 -0700
. com:
On Apr 10, 9:36 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:
In sci.physics,

wrote
on 10 Apr 2007 12:24:22 -0700
.com:

On Apr 8, 2:39 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:
So OK then. How does one convert CO2 to O2 in a 9.3 MPa, 860F
environment?

The same exact technical process as for doing Mars, except you don't
have to import a nuclear reactor for accommodating the necessary
process energy, nor having to wait for a year's worth of processing to
take place, and therefore roughly less than 1% the cost and
complications of doing Mars. I can't recall each of the technical
steps in that process of converting co2 back into the raw elements of
co/o2, but it's posted on the internet by the likes of Dr. Zubrin and
several others if we ever need to know such specifics.

Erm, the raw elements of CO2 are C and O2. CO is carbon monoxide.

I do believe CO can be obtained as one of the CO2 process options, and
is actually a perfectly usable rocket fuel, though I'm informed that
it's not terribly thrust efficient nor clean to burn (perhaps worth
more noise than thrust, but human hearing would likely have been
intentionally disabled anyway).



At nearly 100 bar, the human need of O2 isn't going to be 1%, with the
remainder as H2 and we're good to go (actually as little as 0.5% O2
and 99.5% H2 should be doable). Venus has no actual shortage of O2 or
H2, or actually there's no shortage of easily extracting teratonnes
worth h2o from those relatively cool acidic clouds above the S8 layer,
therefore h2o2 seems perfectly doable.

Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus:

Pressu 9.3 MPa
Composition: ~96.5% Carbon dioxide (8.97 MPa)
~3.5% Nitrogen (325.5 kPa)
..015% Sulfur dioxide (1395 Pa)
..007% Argon (651 Pa)
..002% Water vapor (186 Pa)
..0017% Carbon monoxide (158 Pa)

The human need for O2 is approximately 21 kPa,
or 0.226%.



Surviving at VL2's POOF city is offering somewhat tenuous odds, as
rather dependent upon how much shield is accomplishing how much actual
good, and of the naked physical truth of having to avoid whatever is
passing nearby or through your POOF that has your name on it.
Otherwise this POOF city should be nearly as safe as ISS, although
without benefit of a magnetosphere as shield from those waves upon
waves of solar wind that's continually blowing the upper atmospheric
stuff of Venus directly your way, is perhaps a bit more of an unknown.

The lack of magnetosphere shouldn't be a problem, though I'd have to
research the issue; most of the danger comes from the Sun, which is
occluded.

The peak spectrum of available solar energy is actually worth nearly 4
kw/m2, but as you say, most of that potential energy (including the
very worse of halo CMEs) is being nicely isolated and/or diverted by
way of Venus staying in the way.


We can even utilize our gamma and hard-Xray shedding moon itself as a
gravity boosted exit phase in getting to VL2, and upon our return we
should be able once again to utilize that pesky mascon of a moon as
our gravity parking brake.

Only if one want to expose the participants to gamma and hard X rays.

That is true, but we'd likely be going like a freaking bat out of
hell, perhaps trekking out of town at 30+ km/s, which doesn't give our
frail DNA all that much time of gamma and hard Xray TBI exposure to
our naked moon that's so terribly reactive plus being a little extra
radioactive to boot.

In returning from VL2, the gravity braking maneuver(s) of another
close swing or two past our nasty moon would also be accomplished at a
fairly great deal of velocity, therefore once again our frail DNA
shouldn't get traumatised past the point of no return if we're only
talking about adding minutes or perhaps seconds worth of peak exposure
as to whatever cobalt hard or even titanium soft gamma that moon as to
deliver.


Too bad we don't have those station keeping robust habitats at our
moon's L1 for safely accommodating such crew and passengers returning
from whatever other worlds or moons, or better yet of there being
something deep underground upon our salty moon would become nearly the
ideal biological isolation, offering the ultimate solution that's
close enough to home to suit for all but physical contact.

We can put them there, if you like. It's mostly a question of boost.

I would very much like that, especially if this effort can start off
with getting a 10,000 kg package parked into the moon's L1, with more
features and possibly habitat added as time and resources allow (AKA
somewhat Clarke Station).

I agree, in that possibly a boost of using roughly a 120:1 ratio of
rocket per payload should accomplish the deployment task quickly
enough, whereas otherwise if being of a robotic platform of science
instruments, whereas it could be given a lunar month to get there, in
which case perhaps as little as a modern 80:1 ratio of a sufficiently
low inert mass worth of rocket/payload should more than do the trick.

You folks wouldn't happen to have a spare rocket sitting around?
-
Brad Guth


Mi/Mf = 120
v = Escape velocity = 11.2 km/s
v_e = exhaust velocity = v/log(Mi/Mf) = 11200 / log(120) = 2339

Doable (Saturn V had a v_e of about 2500 m/s) but difficult.

--
#191,
Linux. The choice of a GNU generation.
Windows. The choice of a bunch of people who like very weird behavior on
a regular basis, random crashes, and "extend, embrace, and extinguish".

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Second post because the one before reported as having been taken into
the message loop or stack, yet still isn't showing up.

On Apr 11, 7:16 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:

On Apr 10, 9:36 pm, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:
In sci.physics,
wrote:
At nearly 100 bar, the human need of O2 isn't going to be 1%, with the
remainder as H2 and we're good to go (actually as little as 0.5% O2
and 99.5% H2 should be doable). Venus has no actual shortage of O2 or
H2, or actually there's no shortage of easily extracting teratonnes
worth h2o from those relatively cool acidic clouds above the S8 layer,
therefore h2o2 seems perfectly doable.

Retrieved fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus:

Pressu 9.3 MPa
Composition: ~96.5% Carbon dioxide (8.97 MPa)
~3.5% Nitrogen (325.5 kPa)
.015% Sulfur dioxide (1395 Pa)
.007% Argon (651 Pa)
.002% Water vapor (186 Pa)
.0017% Carbon monoxide (158 Pa)

The human need for O2 is approximately 21 kPa,
or 0.226%.

0.226% O2 is perhaps ideally sufficient, but for good measure I'd
stick with 1% O2 and 99% H2 at first, then working our way towards the
0.5% O2 before trying to survive at 0.226% and 99.774% H2.

BTW; you excluded the Venusian atmospheric element of S8, as being a
fairly considerable component that could be a whole lot more robust
than we're being told by those that don't exactly tell us truth,
especially if it's capable of rocking their boat. John Ackerman has
nailed the more likely correct interpretation as to the local S8
element of that Venusian atmosphere, though obviously we'd never
breath because of our wussy physiology simply isn't going to like
dealing with S8 or CO2 for that matter.


You folks wouldn't happen to have a spare rocket sitting around?

Mi/Mf = 120
v = Escape velocity = 11.2 km/s
v_e = exhaust velocity = v/log(Mi/Mf) = 11200 / log(120) = 2339

Doable (Saturn V had a v_e of about 2500 m/s) but difficult.

I agree that our trusty old Saturn V had more than enough capability
of getting 10+ tonnes deployed into the moon's L1, but that's a
seriously dead and otherwise spendy hourse, that which only those
smart Third Reich and of their Jewish wizards knew enough as to R&D
and of exactly how to fly it.

I was thinking of something 'Ariane 5 ECB' that might be worth getting
to that capability of tossing 10,000+ kg, as being capably sent
towards our moon's L1, taking a full lunar month if need be for that
package to basically coast into position along with a small kicker
brake of a thruster for slowing everything to a final stop at just the
right position. An array of onboard ion thrusters or perhaps merely
the h2o2/c12h26 alternative should manage the extended interactive
station-keeping requirements, with whatever subsequent robotic
resupply of fuel accomplished by those smart Russians that simply know
more first hand expertise about fly-by-rocket robotics.

How are they at taking my IOUs?

If given one launch per month would offer a combined 120 tonnes per
year worth of our best technology getting situated into the moon's
L1. Eventually that would include a bulk water delivery that might
actually accomplish enough shield capability for accommodating a small
volume worth of a manned habitat (though I see little need of anything
manned, especially since the energy required for getting rid of the
surplus heat might be nearly insurmountable at full-moon that's so IR/
FIR intensive).

Of course, modern robotics and of extremely efficient micro science
instruments, whereas perhaps as little as a 1000 kg probe that's
station-keeping within our moon's L1 would become a rather nifty
improvement over what we've got, which is still nothing after better
than 4 decades and counting.

Do you folks have the fully interactive fly-by-rocket expertise, of
having a sufficient computer simulator at your disposal, as based upon
the real world of such rocket inventory that's off the shelf (sort of
speak)?
-
Brad Guth