Colonization Of The Stars And Contact With Aliens: The Last False Hope Of The Secularists

"Genes....are
the only cause of long term variability. "

No, mutations in genes, and differences in genetic combinations, are
the source of variability.

A perfectly reasonable way to develop wheat with a faster growing
cycle is to plant a field of wheat, check it after 100 days and find
the plants that are the most mature at that stage; the same with 101
days, 102 days, etc. Take the plants that matured the most quickly
and cross breed them. Then repeat the experiment, each time breeding
the fastest-growing wheat. Eventually you will breed wheat that
matures in 100 days.

On Feb 27, 2:37�pm, "Ian Parker" wrote:
On 27 Feb, 16:52, wrote:



On Feb 27, 7:23?am, "Ian Parker" wrote:

On 26 Feb, 22:41, wrote:

Yes, but any progeny that is constructed in any way a variance from
the original template - which is impossible to avoid when constructing
a physical object - will evolve. As with most mutations, it will most
likely be something that inhibits the survival of the "daughter" VN,
but every so often it will be something that improves its survival
chance, and that will be passed down at least some of its
descendents. So the slightly improved machine will have more progeny
than the unimproved ones, etc.

buit what is the probability of a mutation. This varies with method of
storage.

- Ian Parker

The only honest answer is "that depends" but it -cannot- be zero down
the generations since you are talking about constructing physical
objects. *At some point the storage method itself will be compromised
during construction, distorting the information stored.- Hide quoted text -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed-So...ror_correction

Note (in reference) n,k can be arbitrary values. How slow do you want
evolution to be? You can make it arbitarily slow. Thie remarks about
the car atrike me very much like Lysenko's inheritance of acquired
characteristics. If you have a broken leg your son won't despite what
Stalin said.

Wheat requres 110 frost free days to ripen. Stalin attempted to grow
wheat with only 100 days. Genes, and in the case of VN Red Solomon are
the only cause of long term variability.

Evolution depends on GENETIC variation to proceed.

I suggest you study the Wiki entry and do a bit more research before
we discuss this further.

* - Ian Parker- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh, and Reed-Solomon does not work if you have to build a new data-
storage medium from raw materials every time, because physical flaws
will undermine the processing one way or another.

On 27 Feb, 22:31, wrote:
On Feb 27, 2:37?pm, "Ian Parker" wrote:





On 27 Feb, 16:52, wrote:

On Feb 27, 7:23?am, "Ian Parker" wrote:

On 26 Feb, 22:41, wrote:

Yes, but any progeny that is constructed in any way a variance from
the original template - which is impossible to avoid when constructing
a physical object - will evolve. As with most mutations, it will most
likely be something that inhibits the survival of the "daughter" VN,
but every so often it will be something that improves its survival
chance, and that will be passed down at least some of its
descendents. So the slightly improved machine will have more progeny
than the unimproved ones, etc.

buit what is the probability of a mutation. This varies with method of
storage.

- Ian Parker

The only honest answer is "that depends" but it -cannot- be zero down
the generations since you are talking about constructing physical
objects. At some point the storage method itself will be compromised
during construction, distorting the information stored.- Hide quoted text -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed-So...ror_correction

Note (in reference) n,k can be arbitrary values. How slow do you want
evolution to be? You can make it arbitarily slow. Thie remarks about
the car atrike me very much like Lysenko's inheritance of acquired
characteristics. If you have a broken leg your son won't despite what
Stalin said.

Wheat requres 110 frost free days to ripen. Stalin attempted to grow
wheat with only 100 days. Genes, and in the case of VN Red Solomon are
the only cause of long term variability.

Evolution depends on GENETIC variation to proceed.

I suggest you study the Wiki entry and do a bit more research before
we discuss this further.

- Ian Parker- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh, and Reed-Solomon does not work if you have to build a new data-
storage medium from raw materials every time, because physical flaws
will undermine the processing one way or another.- Hide quoted text -

Yes it will. You copy the genome from one source to another. If the
disc has been manufactured incorrectly the thing simply will not work.
In fact if storage is wiped out you simply shut the thing down. The
problem is when storage gives a definite value which is incorrect.
This is where the error correcting code comes in.


- Ian Parker

On Feb 28, 6:53�am, "Ian Parker" wrote:
On 27 Feb, 22:31, wrote:



On Feb 27, 2:37?pm, "Ian Parker" wrote:

On 27 Feb, 16:52, wrote:

On Feb 27, 7:23?am, "Ian Parker" wrote:

On 26 Feb, 22:41, wrote:

Yes, but any progeny that is constructed in any way a variance from
the original template - which is impossible to avoid when constructing
a physical object - will evolve. As with most mutations, it will most
likely be something that inhibits the survival of the "daughter" VN,
but every so often it will be something that improves its survival
chance, and that will be passed down at least some of its
descendents. So the slightly improved machine will have more progeny
than the unimproved ones, etc.

buit what is the probability of a mutation. This varies with method of
storage.

- Ian Parker

The only honest answer is "that depends" but it -cannot- be zero down
the generations since you are talking about constructing physical
objects. At some point the storage method itself will be compromised
during construction, distorting the information stored.- Hide quoted text -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed-So...ror_correction

Note (in reference) n,k can be arbitrary values. How slow do you want
evolution to be? You can make it arbitarily slow. Thie remarks about
the car atrike me very much like Lysenko's inheritance of acquired
characteristics. If you have a broken leg your son won't despite what
Stalin said.

Wheat requres 110 frost free days to ripen. Stalin attempted to grow
wheat with only 100 days. Genes, and in the case of VN Red Solomon are
the only cause of long term variability.

Evolution depends on GENETIC variation to proceed.

I suggest you study the Wiki entry and do a bit more research before
we discuss this further.

- Ian Parker- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh, and Reed-Solomon does not work if you have to build a new data-
storage medium from raw materials every time, because physical flaws
will undermine the processing one way or another.- Hide quoted text -

Yes it will. You copy the genome from one source to another. If the
disc has been manufactured incorrectly the thing simply will not work.
In fact if storage is wiped out you simply shut the thing down. The
problem is when storage gives a definite value which is incorrect.
This is where the error correcting code comes in.

* - Ian Parker- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are correct like in most mutations, any alteration will destroy
functionality. But evolution is driven by that small percentage of
cases in which the alteration enhances survival. There is no "you" to
shut the thing down nor can you program it to shut down 100 percent -
it's on a survival and reproduction mission, which means it is
inherently subject to the laws of evolution. DNA also has an error
correction mechanism, and sometimes flaws in that error-correction
system is what -causes- the mutation. You simply cannot design a
machine that reproduces itself from raw materials that is not subject
to error - even if it checks against the correcting code in the
"mother" machine, the transmission and processing of the data may be
flawed.

On 28 Feb, 13:48, wrote:
On Feb 28, 6:53?am, "Ian Parker" wrote:





On 27 Feb, 22:31, wrote:

On Feb 27, 2:37?pm, "Ian Parker" wrote:

On 27 Feb, 16:52, wrote:

On Feb 27, 7:23?am, "Ian Parker" wrote:

On 26 Feb, 22:41, wrote:

Yes, but any progeny that is constructed in any way a variance from
the original template - which is impossible to avoid when constructing
a physical object - will evolve. As with most mutations, it will most
likely be something that inhibits the survival of the "daughter" VN,
but every so often it will be something that improves its survival
chance, and that will be passed down at least some of its
descendents. So the slightly improved machine will have more progeny
than the unimproved ones, etc.

buit what is the probability of a mutation. This varies with method of
storage.

- Ian Parker

The only honest answer is "that depends" but it -cannot- be zero down
the generations since you are talking about constructing physical
objects. At some point the storage method itself will be compromised
during construction, distorting the information stored.- Hide quoted text -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed-So...ror_correction

Note (in reference) n,k can be arbitrary values. How slow do you want
evolution to be? You can make it arbitarily slow. Thie remarks about
the car atrike me very much like Lysenko's inheritance of acquired
characteristics. If you have a broken leg your son won't despite what
Stalin said.

Wheat requres 110 frost free days to ripen. Stalin attempted to grow
wheat with only 100 days. Genes, and in the case of VN Red Solomon are
the only cause of long term variability.

Evolution depends on GENETIC variation to proceed.

I suggest you study the Wiki entry and do a bit more research before
we discuss this further.

- Ian Parker- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh, and Reed-Solomon does not work if you have to build a new data-
storage medium from raw materials every time, because physical flaws
will undermine the processing one way or another.- Hide quoted text -

Yes it will. You copy the genome from one source to another. If the
disc has been manufactured incorrectly the thing simply will not work.
In fact if storage is wiped out you simply shut the thing down. The
problem is when storage gives a definite value which is incorrect.
This is where the error correcting code comes in.

- Ian Parker- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are correct like in most mutations, any alteration will destroy
functionality. But evolution is driven by that small percentage of
cases in which the alteration enhances survival.

Correct.
There is no "you" to
shut the thing down nor can you program it to shut down 100 percent -
it's on a survival and reproduction mission, which means it is
inherently subject to the laws of evolution.

There is no reserve of beneficial mutations with Reed Soloman. Yes I
can shut it down. I put in an instruction to the effect that if it
can't see 64 discs it shuts down. Now 63 discs is fitter than 64 since
it can evolve. In fact we only really get Evolution with 16 drives. I
have said however that a 63 drive system must shut down.

DNA also has an error
correction mechanism, and sometimes flaws in that error-correction
system is what -causes- the mutation.

Correct - there are bacteria in a nuclear reactor that use it.

You simply cannot design a
machine that reproduces itself from raw materials that is not subject
to error - even if it checks against the correcting code in the
"mother" machine, the transmission and processing of the data may be
flawed.

With "Intelligent Design" to use the hackneyed term n,k are designed
intelligently to prevent this hapenning. Bacteria can survive in a
nuclear reactor but only just. That is the paradyme. We have a value
for n,k for nuclear reactor with natural selection. In fact RS
specifically is not used but I am stating something like n,k for a
reactor.

Ocean Store is 64 discs with 16 needed.


- Ian Parker

There is no reserve of beneficial mutations with Reed Soloman. Yes I
can shut it down. I put in an instruction to the effect that if it
can't see 64 discs it shuts down.

And what happens when that instruction becomes corrupt during the
physical reproduction process? If you shut down the VNs every time
there is reproduction error, you won't get very far. There is simply
a world of difference between trading data between existing storage
devices and building new storage devices from raw materials.

Heck, speaking of raw, it's likely that one group of VNs would
reprogram to wait until another VN has done all the refining - and
then attack it and eat it for the raw materials.

But all this to one side - what are the VNs doing that is worthwhile
to the originating civilization?

On 1 Mar, 07:58, wrote:
There is no reserve of beneficial mutations with Reed Soloman. Yes I
can shut it down. I put in an instruction to the effect that if it
can't see 64 discs it shuts down.

And what happens when that instruction becomes corrupt during the
physical reproduction process? If you shut down the VNs every time
there is reproduction error, you won't get very far. There is simply
a world of difference between trading data between existing storage
devices and building new storage devices from raw materials.

No, the chances of an error of any sort are in fact rare. Just look at
the reliability of modern computing systems. I was talking about a
gross error like 63 discs being present insead of 64. Builing a genome
with 64 discs is a vital part of the genome. You do not give up after
one error, you give up after several. The cyhances of a single error
occuring are in fact s,all. Computers are sold with Windows or Linux
error free.

In fact genetic mutation does not occur that often. The only reason it
appears to are :-

1) The scale of geological time.
2) The fact that a beneficial mutation with spead with exponential
speed througout a population. No a VN machine, or more strictly a VN
swarm will have 64 memory stores. If one does not work it will be
replaced.

Heck, speaking of raw, it's likely that one group of VNs would
reprogram to wait until another VN has done all the refining - and
then attack it and eat it for the raw materials.

No

But all this to one side - what are the VNs doing that is worthwhile
to the originating civilization?

Do we need VN machines? I think we do. We do for a variety of reasons.
If you want to do anything meaty in space, anything involving millions
of tons of material we need to go the Moon or an Asteroid and take a
megaton of aluminium out. Talking about asteroids, someone has
suggested that mining and protection of the Earth are one and the same
thing. A collision with Earth? WE MINE!

This question is similar in some respects to the question - Do you
need space? Do we want to settle on Mars, possibly even Venus and
O'Neill colonies? Well I believe that global warming is real. If you
want to control it it is not sufficient simply to consume less energy.
We need, amoungst other things, to build a sunshield to control the
earth's tremperature. Under some circumstances this may mean an
INCREASE in energy as in 1815 Tamborra erupted and caused "the year
without a summer". We also need to be in a position to control
destructive phenomena like hurricanes.

I think sellement on VENUS should be a target. Why Venus? Because if
we can control the environment to the extent of making the place
habitable we will have passed a milestone in our development. We will
have become "Type I"

Do we want to be "Type 1"? I think we must. Our civilization will be
less vulnerable to catastrophe. Also lets look at the Fermi Paradox.
One solution to Fermi is that we are in a race. We need VN before
other people. Venusian national anthem "Winner takes it all!". This is
not of course certain, but there is sufficient probability to give us
pause for thought.

Have I answered your question.


- Ian Parker

PS Re Venusian national anthem - someone on some other star system may
well be posting pretty much what I am posting!

No, the chances of an error of any sort are in fact rare. Just look at
the reliability of modern computing systems.

You've never had a hard drive crash?

I was talking about a
gross error like 63 discs being present insead of 64. Builing a genome
with 64 discs is a vital part of the genome. You do not give up after
one error, you give up after several. The cyhances of a single error
occuring are in fact s,all. Computers are sold with Windows or Linux
error free.

No obvious errors perhaps, but they are not identical to each other,
any more than all worker ants are identical despite having identical
genetic codes. The simplest example is screws - you can buy a bag of
screws that look pretty darn identical, but run them under a
microscope and you will see they have significant microscopic
differences that will in the end impact their performance. You keep
focusing on the code - even if the code is perfectly retained, how it
is put into pratice by the machine - after all, the code is a set of
instructions that the physical machine has to interpret - may be
changed.

And since when is Windows error-free?


In fact genetic mutation does not occur that often. The only reason
it
appears to are :-

1) The scale of geological time.
2) The fact that a beneficial mutation with spead with exponential
speed througout a population. No a VN machine, or more strictly a VN
swarm will have 64 memory stores. If one does not work it will be
replaced.

Genetic human mutation occurs every single birth. You get the major
genetic reshufflling due to sexual reproduction but you also contain
noticable if not immediately apparent genetic mutations. Of course,
any mutation that prevents the fetus from developing in the womb will
be screened out, but there are significant genetic mutations - such as
Down Syndome, also known as trisomy 21 due to the presence of an
entire extra chromsome 21 in the fetus - that impacts development
severely but allows for birth, and that's only one of thousands of
reproductive errors that result in disease. So is the child recently
in the news born with 12 finger and 11 toes - I could go on for quite
along time You might want to type "genetic mutation" and "disease"
into google. Most mutations, as I've said, leave the offspring worse
of - but some don't, and some improve.




But all this to one side - what are the VNs doing that is worthwhile
to the originating civilization?

Do we need VN machines? I think we do. We do for a variety of reasons.
If you want to do anything meaty in space, anything involving millions
of tons of material we need to go the Moon or an Asteroid and take a
megaton of aluminium out.

Why would we want to do this? We're not short enough on Aluminum to
motivate us.




I think sellement on VENUS should be a target. Why Venus? Because if
we can control the environment to the extent of making the place
habitable we will have passed a milestone in our development. We will
have become "Type I"

If we could do that, why wouldn't we just use the same tech to make
the Earth into whatever we want?

Do we want to be "Type 1"? I think we must. Our civilization will be
less vulnerable to catastrophe. Also lets look at the Fermi Paradox.
One solution to Fermi is that we are in a race. We need VN before
other people. Venusian national anthem "Winner takes it all!". This is
not of course certain, but there is sufficient probability to give us
pause for thought.


While I understand the attraction of getting all of our eggs out of
one planetary basket, it's just not feasable any time soon. Mars and
Venus are not habitable and we lack the technology to make them so -
heck, we lack the technology to make the center of Austrailia fully
habitable, or antartica.

But the most likely solution to Fermi is that space travel on any
scale is not sustainable due to the physical constraints of the
universe in which we find ourselves.

On 1 Mar, 15:15, wrote:
You've never had a hard drive crash?

A single hard disc crash would mean a replacement. What we must not
allow to happen is to have 63 discs PERMANENTLY
I was talking about a

gross error like 63 discs being present insead of 64. Builing a genome
with 64 discs is a vital part of the genome. You do not give up after
one error, you give up after several. The cyhances of a single error
occuring are in fact s,all. Computers are sold with Windows or Linux
error free.

No obvious errors perhaps, but they are not identical to each other,
any more than all worker ants are identical despite having identical
genetic codes. The simplest example is screws - you can buy a bag of
screws that look pretty darn identical, but run them under a
microscope and you will see they have significant microscopic
differences that will in the end impact their performance. You keep
focusing on the code - even if the code is perfectly retained, how it
is put into pratice by the machine - after all, the code is a set of
instructions that the physical machine has to interpret - may be
changed.

The probability of a mutation is set by mathematics.

And since when is Windows error-free?

It is copied error free. You get the same error on lots of machines.
It is copied faithfully. There are quite a lot of non technical issues
surrounding Microsoft. The purchase of SUSE and the twisting of IPR
laws. That is a separate issue. I will agree with you though. BTW -
Have you heard the Bill Gates joke. If you get images of Linux via
Yahoo you get a load of bikinis. This is alt.atheism as one of the
groups. I thought of 9-11 and the jihardic "screensaver". Also I note
the EU is going to impose further fines.

1) The scale of geological time.
2) The fact that a beneficial mutation with spead with exponential
speed througout a population. No a VN machine, or more strictly a VN
swarm will have 64 memory stores. If one does not work it will be
replaced.

Genetic human mutation occurs every single birth. You get the major
genetic reshufflling due to sexual reproduction but you also contain
noticable if not immediately apparent genetic mutations. Of course,
any mutation that prevents the fetus from developing in the womb will
be screened out, but there are significant genetic mutations - such as
Down Syndome, also known as trisomy 21 due to the presence of an
entire extra chromsome 21 in the fetus - that impacts development
severely but allows for birth, and that's only one of thousands of
reproductive errors that result in disease. So is the child recently
in the news born with 12 finger and 11 toes - I could go on for quite
along time You might want to type "genetic mutation" and "disease"
into google. Most mutations, as I've said, leave the offspring worse
of - but some don't, and some improve.

Women do not get haemophilia because they have 2 copies. Heck I am
proposing 64.


But all this to one side - what are the VNs doing that is worthwhile
to the originating civilization?

Do we need VN machines? I think we do. We do for a variety of reasons.
If you want to do anything meaty in space, anything involving millions
of tons of material we need to go the Moon or an Asteroid and take a
megaton of aluminium out.

Why would we want to do this? We're not short enough on Aluminum to
motivate us.

We are if we are building things in space. We don't want to use launch
capacity.


I think sellement on VENUS should be a target. Why Venus? Because if
we can control the environment to the extent of making the place
habitable we will have passed a milestone in our development. We will
have become "Type I"

If we could do that, why wouldn't we just use the same tech to make
the Earth into whatever we want?

Good point! I am in fact in favor of colonizing Venus but NOT Mars.
Hang on a minute and I will explain why. If generals and politicians
are simply sending a handpicked team into space - Nazi style, then I
will agree with you. If people are to go in LARGE numbers without any
medical checks except for current infectious diseases that is another
matter. Type 1 of couse means the latter.

I can wax lyrical about generals and politicians. They failed to
destroy the Smallpox virus when they had the chance too. They are
working on genetically engineered bugs. While that is the case one
should oppose any long term settlement in space. I agree. Evolution
tends to make viruses less deady. It is not an advantage to kill the
host. A stuffy nose is fitness for both genomes. You can readily see
the danger.

However a full Type 1 is of a different nature. We should of course
reject all non Type 1 colonies.


Do we want to be "Type 1"? I think we must. Our civilization will be
less vulnerable to catastrophe. Also lets look at the Fermi Paradox.
One solution to Fermi is that we are in a race. We need VN before
other people. Venusian national anthem "Winner takes it all!". This is
not of course certain, but there is sufficient probability to give us
pause for thought.

While I understand the attraction of getting all of our eggs out of
one planetary basket, it's just not feasable any time soon. Mars and
Venus are not habitable and we lack the technology to make them so -
heck, we lack the technology to make the center of Austrailia fully
habitable, or antartica.

What do you call soon. A VN machine is the type of breakthrough that
can occur quickly. It is very much linked to the development of AI.
Suppose we can assemble flatpacks. That is a vital stage. A rigorous
mathematical definition of VN can be made in terms of graph theory. We
have processes with inputs and outputs. If the net inputs (those not
matched by outputs are readily available raw materials we have done
it. Von Neumann presented this in the simplest form. He postulated
that a robot put a fuse into a robot with a fuse.
R + F + M - 2M F = Fuse, R = Robot without fuse and M is the machine.
This is a trivial graph although often trivial examples illustrate
important general principles. In a Von Neumann machine the number of
net inputs, that is to say inputs without being matched by outputs or
raw materials is zero. Von Neumann postulated for his simple graph
robots and fuses as being raw materials. If we have furnaces on the
Moon or asteroids we have a meaty problem. Very different from the
trivial graph above. The interesting fact is that given a a set of
processes (existing on the Web) AI in the shape of a travelling
salesperson type of algorithm could actually help us achieve a minimal
seed.

You talk about Antarctica and Australia. The two are very different.
We want Antarctica to remain frozen for the sake of the rest of the
world. It would flood. The center of Australia would be habitable if
we used solar energy to desalinate sea water.

But the most likely solution to Fermi is that space travel on any
scale is not sustainable due to the physical constraints of the
universe in which we find ourselves.

To be blunt I don't believe this. There are scemes for interstellar
travel - viz Forward. Of course travelling here is simple. You just
put AI on the Web. In discussing UFOs I always put in "?Puerde lectar
en espagnol?". Are the enthusiasts human? Why do they post? ET can
speak for himself. No we get a VN machine - provided on the Web by
them, and we simply provide lasers at this end.


- Ian Parker