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#11
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DIMM seeing test, seeking prism source
"Thad Floryan" wrote in message om... "matt" wrote in message ... [...] it appears that this is simply a 2 hole Hartmann mask . The new twist is having a 30 arcsecond permanent image shift by using the wedge in one of the 2 holes , which allows the 2 images to be permanently separated at the focal plane . The same effect of having the 2 images separated is accomplished by a slight defocus . I'd try first without any prism/wedge . I'd just make a cardboard Hartmann mask and see if the defocus that's required for a few arcseconds of star image separation makes the 2 star images too fuzzy/dim . That's what several of us have already attempted, and that's where the problem seems to lie. The slightly-defocused images aren't "good enough" for the DIMM and that's why the wedge prisms have been used as stated in most of the reports and papers I've found the past week. A second issue arises with the sub-apertures' baseline and diameters; There is disagreement as to the correct baseline percentage of clear aperture, with values ranging from 70% to 80% (and other) and sub-aperture diameter percentage of 30% to 20% (and other). I'm tabulating all the dimensions from the several 100s of reports I've found and need to re-read the 1990 paper for some more insight. In my C-11 scope for example I know this is ok, as I usually use a similar mask for focusing . If you get an optical window, most have non parallel back to front , the amount of wedge being more than enough for your purposes . Try it first with any filter you may already own by simply placing it in front of one of your Harmann mask holes after focusing and see if you get enough separation. Many beamsplitters and cold or hot mirrors have a built in wedge to eliminate internal ghosting so getting one of them might work too . Check Thorlabs for broadband beamsplitters with a built in wedge angle of 30 arcseconds. Thank you very much for the reference to Thorlabs (www.thorlabs.com); I've already noted they have 2 degree wedge prisms at a VERY reasonable price, so it should be possible to get some made with 30 arcsecond deviation within my original budget constraint. They also have some plate beamsplitters which are broadband antireflection coated on one side and have a built in wedge between front and back of 30 arcmin to eliminate reflections . They come in a BK7 and a quartz version, both 1/10lambda surface . They go up to 2" in diameter . Part numbers are BSW13 to BSW18 depending on the beamsplitter coatings. Probably selecting the "wrong" coating would yield very little reflectivity at 0 deg . An even better fit would be the Thorlabs beamsamplers, which are optical windows made of BK7 or quartz, 1/10lambda , with an uncoated front and a broadband antireflection coated back . They too come in 2" diameter and have the built in 30 arcmin wedge between front and back surfaces . They're intended to reflect between 1% - 10% at 45 deg angle of incidence . Part numbers are BSP20-A1 and BSF20-A1 . If the 30 arcmin wedge is too much, although this is 4 times smaller than the wedge prisms, you may try to combine 2 of these beam sampler wedges . Depending on their orientation you can steer incident light and by rotating one wedge with respect to the other you can change the steering angle continuously from 0 . Simply rotating the 2 wedges will allow you to experiment with the angle value . best regards, matt tudor |
#12
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DIMM seeing test, seeking prism source
(Thad Floryan) wrote in
om: After a lot of web surfing and document search, the consensus is that a prism "should" be used in one of the sub-apertures of the DIMM mask for optimal results. SBIG's docs make no mention of a prism being used or needed for this application. Just a few more links for you: Defocusing without a wedge: http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0111022 DIMM softwa http://www.astro.washington.edu/rest/dimm/ I contacted the author of the above software, and he let me download a working copy. The problem is I don't know how to make it work with my web camera. I also tried the defocusing trick without a wedge, and it seems to work well with my 10" f/5 newtonian. Jon http://home.no.net/jonbent/astropages.html |
#13
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DIMM seeing test, seeking prism source
(Thad Floryan) wrote in
om: After a lot of web surfing and document search, the consensus is that a prism "should" be used in one of the sub-apertures of the DIMM mask for optimal results. SBIG's docs make no mention of a prism being used or needed for this application. Just a few more links for you: Defocusing without a wedge: http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0111022 DIMM softwa http://www.astro.washington.edu/rest/dimm/ I contacted the author of the above software, and he let me download a working copy. The problem is I don't know how to make it work with my web camera. I also tried the defocusing trick without a wedge, and it seems to work well with my 10" f/5 newtonian. Jon http://home.no.net/jonbent/astropages.html |
#14
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DIMM seeing test, seeking prism source
Thad,
I just set up a DIMM system here at San Diego State University. The telescope is a 12-inch Meade LX-200 equipped with a flip mirror and an ST-5 CCD camera. The telescope has an aperture mask with four small openings (about 2 inches diameter or so). One opening is a one arc-minute prism and the other three are just pass-throughs. The opening opposite the prism is used for actual DIMM measurements. The other two openings are for focusing and are otherwise covered up. Unfortunately, I don't know where the prism originally came from as we received it from another individual. The purpose of the prism is to create a second star image while in focus, thus allowing for a differential positional measurement. The general idea is that the change in separation is due to turbulence, and that measuring the differential is a lot easier and more reliable than trying to measure a single star width. The software was written by Armin Rest during the course of his studies at the University of Washington. Here is some information: http://www.astro.washington.edu/rest/dimm/ Del Johnson "Thad Floryan" wrote in message om... A question came up in the STV group (SBIGSTV) at Yahoo regarding the DIMM measurement. DIMM = Differential Image Motion Monitor, and it appears to be the present de facto method to evaluate sites for astronomical use as I've found in 100s of papers and journals over the past 5 days. The SBIG STV device has a DIMM operational mode, but it seems everyone who has attempted it has run into some difficulties, and it doesn't appear to be due to the algorithms but, instead, to the aperture mask and whether one should have a prism over one of the sub-apertures or not (with "not" being a slightly defocused image). In brief, the mask is a Hartmann mask and the goal is to have 2 images of the same star appear on the CCD chip after passing through the mask whose baseline is typically 6 to 10 inches depending on the scope used. After a lot of web surfing and document search, the consensus is that a prism "should" be used in one of the sub-apertures of the DIMM mask for optimal results. SBIG's docs make no mention of a prism being used or needed for this application. Everywhere I've read about the prism, a 30 arcsecond deviation is what's being used whether with the SBIG STV or a custom, home-brew imaging station at some of the world's major observatories. The prism must be custom made since I've found nothing like it in the Edmund Industrial Optics 2004 catalog 41B or elsewhere. Some have reported minor success with slight defocusing and with both sub-apertures "clear" (i.e., no prism or beam-splitter). I'm still experimenting with DIMM and would like to continue the tests this time using a prism. Does anyone have any idea where such a prism (roughly 2 to 3 inches square or circular) with a 30 arcsec "bending" can be found without paying an arm and a leg? For these purposes "an arm and a leg" can be defined to be no more than US$200. :-) If anyone's interested in further reading, some of the better references site testing and DIMM usage are in the following list; most of the scopes used are SCTs from 8" to 12". Prisms used for DIMM in mask's sub-apertu http://www.ctio.noao.edu/telescopes/dimm/dimm.html http://www.ing.iac.es/Astronomy/development/hap/dimm.html http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~cp8h/dimm/ http://www.astro.washington.edu/rest/dimm/dimmtext.htm http://www.astro.caltech.edu/~george/celt/schoeck.ps http://www-astro.unice.fr/Concordia/sitetesting.html http://www-astro.unice.fr/Concordia/Documents/dimm.pdf The above PDF document (finally!) describes the prism: 7cm x 7cm with 30 arcsec deviation angle on one of the sub-apertures. Note this is being done in Antarctica and also referenced in the paper below: http://sait.oat.ts.astro.it/MSAIS/2/PDF/146.pdf http://galaxy.ps.uci.edu/~celtsite/equipment.html Also at the above site ("uci.edu"), click on the link for "Sarazin & Roddier 1990" for the original definitive article about DIMM. Defocused DIMM: http://www.iac.es/proyect/sitesting/PDF/defocus.pdf Defocused and with prism: http://www.tug.tubitak.gov.tr/gozlemler/SDIMM/ Hartmann-DIMM (without prism): http://astro.uchicago.edu/cara/research/papers/bob/ |
#15
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DIMM seeing test, seeking prism source
Thad,
I just set up a DIMM system here at San Diego State University. The telescope is a 12-inch Meade LX-200 equipped with a flip mirror and an ST-5 CCD camera. The telescope has an aperture mask with four small openings (about 2 inches diameter or so). One opening is a one arc-minute prism and the other three are just pass-throughs. The opening opposite the prism is used for actual DIMM measurements. The other two openings are for focusing and are otherwise covered up. Unfortunately, I don't know where the prism originally came from as we received it from another individual. The purpose of the prism is to create a second star image while in focus, thus allowing for a differential positional measurement. The general idea is that the change in separation is due to turbulence, and that measuring the differential is a lot easier and more reliable than trying to measure a single star width. The software was written by Armin Rest during the course of his studies at the University of Washington. Here is some information: http://www.astro.washington.edu/rest/dimm/ Del Johnson "Thad Floryan" wrote in message om... A question came up in the STV group (SBIGSTV) at Yahoo regarding the DIMM measurement. DIMM = Differential Image Motion Monitor, and it appears to be the present de facto method to evaluate sites for astronomical use as I've found in 100s of papers and journals over the past 5 days. The SBIG STV device has a DIMM operational mode, but it seems everyone who has attempted it has run into some difficulties, and it doesn't appear to be due to the algorithms but, instead, to the aperture mask and whether one should have a prism over one of the sub-apertures or not (with "not" being a slightly defocused image). In brief, the mask is a Hartmann mask and the goal is to have 2 images of the same star appear on the CCD chip after passing through the mask whose baseline is typically 6 to 10 inches depending on the scope used. After a lot of web surfing and document search, the consensus is that a prism "should" be used in one of the sub-apertures of the DIMM mask for optimal results. SBIG's docs make no mention of a prism being used or needed for this application. Everywhere I've read about the prism, a 30 arcsecond deviation is what's being used whether with the SBIG STV or a custom, home-brew imaging station at some of the world's major observatories. The prism must be custom made since I've found nothing like it in the Edmund Industrial Optics 2004 catalog 41B or elsewhere. Some have reported minor success with slight defocusing and with both sub-apertures "clear" (i.e., no prism or beam-splitter). I'm still experimenting with DIMM and would like to continue the tests this time using a prism. Does anyone have any idea where such a prism (roughly 2 to 3 inches square or circular) with a 30 arcsec "bending" can be found without paying an arm and a leg? For these purposes "an arm and a leg" can be defined to be no more than US$200. :-) If anyone's interested in further reading, some of the better references site testing and DIMM usage are in the following list; most of the scopes used are SCTs from 8" to 12". Prisms used for DIMM in mask's sub-apertu http://www.ctio.noao.edu/telescopes/dimm/dimm.html http://www.ing.iac.es/Astronomy/development/hap/dimm.html http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~cp8h/dimm/ http://www.astro.washington.edu/rest/dimm/dimmtext.htm http://www.astro.caltech.edu/~george/celt/schoeck.ps http://www-astro.unice.fr/Concordia/sitetesting.html http://www-astro.unice.fr/Concordia/Documents/dimm.pdf The above PDF document (finally!) describes the prism: 7cm x 7cm with 30 arcsec deviation angle on one of the sub-apertures. Note this is being done in Antarctica and also referenced in the paper below: http://sait.oat.ts.astro.it/MSAIS/2/PDF/146.pdf http://galaxy.ps.uci.edu/~celtsite/equipment.html Also at the above site ("uci.edu"), click on the link for "Sarazin & Roddier 1990" for the original definitive article about DIMM. Defocused DIMM: http://www.iac.es/proyect/sitesting/PDF/defocus.pdf Defocused and with prism: http://www.tug.tubitak.gov.tr/gozlemler/SDIMM/ Hartmann-DIMM (without prism): http://astro.uchicago.edu/cara/research/papers/bob/ |
#16
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DIMM seeing test, seeking prism source
"matt" wrote in message news:3Z8ac.72338
[...] If the 30 arcmin wedge is too much, although this is 4 times smaller than the wedge prisms, you may try to combine 2 of these beam sampler wedges . Depending on their orientation you can steer incident light and by rotating one wedge with respect to the other you can change the steering angle continuously from 0 . Simply rotating the 2 wedges will allow you to experiment with the angle value . That idea may work (rotating one with respect to the other)! I reexamined my Edmund catalog and noticed I originally looked at the wrong range of pages; they do have wedge prisms (25mm diameter) and that rotating technique was described in their catalog. Pricing now seems inexpensive-enough to perform some experiments with two prisms to determine if there's too much attenuation of light. Thanks again for your response! |
#17
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DIMM seeing test, seeking prism source
"matt" wrote in message news:3Z8ac.72338
[...] If the 30 arcmin wedge is too much, although this is 4 times smaller than the wedge prisms, you may try to combine 2 of these beam sampler wedges . Depending on their orientation you can steer incident light and by rotating one wedge with respect to the other you can change the steering angle continuously from 0 . Simply rotating the 2 wedges will allow you to experiment with the angle value . That idea may work (rotating one with respect to the other)! I reexamined my Edmund catalog and noticed I originally looked at the wrong range of pages; they do have wedge prisms (25mm diameter) and that rotating technique was described in their catalog. Pricing now seems inexpensive-enough to perform some experiments with two prisms to determine if there's too much attenuation of light. Thanks again for your response! |
#18
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DIMM seeing test, seeking prism source
Andrea,
The "Big Guys" actually use Meade SCTs for DIMM stations. Here is the one at Cerro Tololo: http://www.ctio.noao.edu/telescopes/dimm/dimm.html We have DIMM set up on a 12" Meade here at SDSU and I may move it to a 10" Meade in a RoboDome. The point is that DIMM does not require a professional grade telescope. Why is it that you say that precise positioning and S/N is required? The whole point of DIMM is a differential measurement so only casual guiding corrections are required. Also, one typically selects a bright star so S/N is not an issue. Regards, Del Johnson "andrea tasselli" wrote in message First the small twin aperture will have a much lower resolution limit and so do all the scopes used in DIMM setups presented in the previously posted links. "Big guys" are apparently using scope in the 10" to 16" range with mask apertures in the 5 to 8 cm range. Secondly isn't resolution that matters but precise position and the highest possible S/N compatible with the required exposure time. Andrea T. |
#19
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DIMM seeing test, seeking prism source
Andrea,
The "Big Guys" actually use Meade SCTs for DIMM stations. Here is the one at Cerro Tololo: http://www.ctio.noao.edu/telescopes/dimm/dimm.html We have DIMM set up on a 12" Meade here at SDSU and I may move it to a 10" Meade in a RoboDome. The point is that DIMM does not require a professional grade telescope. Why is it that you say that precise positioning and S/N is required? The whole point of DIMM is a differential measurement so only casual guiding corrections are required. Also, one typically selects a bright star so S/N is not an issue. Regards, Del Johnson "andrea tasselli" wrote in message First the small twin aperture will have a much lower resolution limit and so do all the scopes used in DIMM setups presented in the previously posted links. "Big guys" are apparently using scope in the 10" to 16" range with mask apertures in the 5 to 8 cm range. Secondly isn't resolution that matters but precise position and the highest possible S/N compatible with the required exposure time. Andrea T. |
#20
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DIMM seeing test, seeking prism source
"Del Johnson" delastro@{right star in Orion's belt}.sdsu.edu wrote in message ... Thad, I just set up a DIMM system here at San Diego State University. The telescope is a 12-inch Meade LX-200 equipped with a flip mirror and an ST-5 CCD camera. The telescope has an aperture mask with four small openings (about 2 inches diameter or so). One opening is a one arc-minute prism and the other three are just pass-throughs. The opening opposite the prism is used for actual DIMM measurements. The other two openings are for focusing and are otherwise covered up. Unfortunately, I don't know where the prism originally came from as we received it from another individual. The purpose of the prism is to create a second star image while in focus, thus allowing for a differential positional measurement. The general idea is that the change in separation is due to turbulence, and that measuring the differential is a lot easier and more reliable than trying to measure a single star width. The software was written by Armin Rest during the course of his studies at the University of Washington. Here is some information: http://www.astro.washington.edu/rest/dimm/ Del Johnson Del, Do you know if there is any way to obtain a copy of the DIMM software for personal use ? Even if it only works with SBIG ccd cameras it would be a valuable tool for me at this time . Thank you, Matt Tudor |
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