|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
On the ...ABSURDITY of Nasa's Search for Water
In sci.space.policy MarsFossils wrote:
The chemistry of the solar nebula dust that accumulated to form the earth should be more or less the same as the dust that accumulated to form Mars. Earth has water all over the place, why shouldn't Mars. A possible reason might be that Jupiter "stole" a large portion of it. Mars has river vallies and liquid flow features. Why shouldn't it, long in the past, have standing bodies of water. But there is not enough atmosphere there now to allow liquid water. The atmosphere is only 0.6% of earth. Either you will find ice or steam, not liquid water - salty or otherwise. for some value of 'large' it probably did at some point. It doesn't follow that it need have stayed on Mars, it might have left with the atmosphere. Yet, for some reason, we have yet to see the antepenultimate press conference announcing the discovery of water on Mars. It should one of those, "Oh yeah, we found some more traces of water too." things, not a great and wonderful reason for an announcement. Not really - there isn't an inherent reason why there should be water on Mars any more than it should be on Venus (where there really isn't). Michael Mars Fossils, Pseudofossils, and Problematica http://aix1.uottawa.ca/~weinberg/mars There has never been a better Mars fossils web page. -- Sander +++ Out of cheese error +++ |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
On the ...ABSURDITY of Nasa's Search for Water Part 2
In most physics problems the first order of business is generally to be sure of the frame of reference. Else all that follows is misguided. With the rover mission we have taken our frame of reference...our bias....with us when assuming water is the dynamic ecosystem medium. In complexity science the first order of business is to define the system. This is often arbitrary and subjective, but a frame is needed before any detailed analysis is attempted. The attractor basins must be defined first. This is done by defining the endpoints, or extremes in possibility space for the system at hand. For example, if the system is a body of water, one extreme in possibility space for that system is ice, the static attractor. The other extreme is vapor, the chaotic attractor. At some point between those extremes the system undergoes phase changes, where it is neither ice or vapor. Water of course. That would define the dynamic attractor or complex realm. The dynamic attractor is the medium where the two extremes can transition between each other. Without defining the extremes in possibilities it's not possible to understand the dynamics. Without this complex realm both extremes would remain locked in place. No interaction would be possible and no self organization or evolution. When looking at the biosphere of earth the attractor basins are easy to see. Earth, water and the atmosphere comprise the frame of reference. All three are integral parts of the whole. Solid, liquid and gas. On Mars we have a different situation. When looking at the extremes in possibilities we see that one extreme is frozen water underground and in the poles, the other is ground and surface water. The thin atmosphere serves mostly as a constraint. Unlike earth, water spends very little time in the Martian atmosphere. So the extremes in possibilities on Mars is not solid, liquid and gas. But solid and liquid. With climate change or ice ages playing the deciding variable. This system needs a dynamic attractor. Which would be the medium where the two extremes are allowed to change phase or interact. During climates like now where surface water cannot exist, the complex realm is the near surface soil. When surface water exists our standard frame would return. So it is now primarily in the soil where the interaction, the complex behavior can take place. Where self organization and life can now occur. Of course many conclusions follow from this. On earth the rate of change or seasons take place very quickly, perhaps every day or year. On Mars since soil is the complex medium the life processes would take place much slower. Perhaps closer to geologic time. Or more likely between ice ages. With a proper ecosystem frame of reference we can take another look at Meridiani. The soil appears fresh and pristine, yet the rocks appear weathered and have fossilized encrustations. A seeming contradiction given our earthly frame of reference. But with a Martian frame these observations make sense. When the seas are present, life would quickly emerge from underground hibernation, and the soil would then build. When the climate changed the seas would withdraw and leave behind just what we see. Except perhaps for a blanket of sand that has weathered away. Life would retreat underground and find a suitable transition space, such as between ice and water, fresh and salt water. When no surface water is possible, bacteria would be the primary life. When the seas returned this bacteria could quickly evolve into higher life forms such as two or more celled organisms. A season on Mars is an ice age, not a year. We should look for the soil, not water, to understand this ecosystem and find our answers. Where there is soil, there is water and life below. Jonathan s |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
On the ...ABSURDITY of Nasa's Search for Water Part 2
"El Guapo" wrote in message news:06pcc.191019$1p.2223623@attbi_s54... "jonathan" wrote in message ... In most physics problems the first order of business is generally to be sure of the frame of reference. Else all that follows is misguided. With the rover mission we have taken our frame of reference...our bias....with us when assuming water is the dynamic ecosystem medium. In complexity science the first order of business is to define the system. This is often arbitrary and subjective, but a frame is needed before any detailed analysis is attempted. The attractor basins must be defined first. This is done by defining the endpoints, or extremes in possibility space for the system at hand. For example, if the system is a body of water, one extreme in possibility space for that system is ice, the static attractor. The other extreme is vapor, the chaotic attractor. At some point between those extremes the system undergoes phase changes, where it is neither ice or vapor. Water of course. That would define the dynamic attractor or complex realm. The dynamic attractor is the medium where the two extremes can transition between each other. Without defining the extremes in possibilities it's not possible to understand the dynamics. Without this complex realm both extremes would remain locked in place. No interaction would be possible and no self organization or evolution. When looking at the biosphere of earth the attractor basins are easy to see. Earth, water and the atmosphere comprise the frame of reference. All three are integral parts of the whole. Solid, liquid and gas. On Mars we have a different situation. When looking at the extremes in possibilities we see that one extreme is frozen water underground and in the poles, the other is ground and surface water. The thin atmosphere serves mostly as a constraint. Unlike earth, water spends very little time in the Martian atmosphere. So the extremes in possibilities on Mars is not solid, liquid and gas. But solid and liquid. With climate change or ice ages playing the deciding variable. This system needs a dynamic attractor. Which would be the medium where the two extremes are allowed to change phase or interact. During climates like now where surface water cannot exist, the complex realm is the near surface soil. When surface water exists our standard frame would return. So it is now primarily in the soil where the interaction, the complex behavior can take place. Where self organization and life can now occur. Of course many conclusions follow from this. On earth the rate of change or seasons take place very quickly, perhaps every day or year. On Mars since soil is the complex medium the life processes would take place much slower. Perhaps closer to geologic time. Or more likely between ice ages. With a proper ecosystem frame of reference we can take another look at Meridiani. The soil appears fresh and pristine, yet the rocks appear weathered and have fossilized encrustations. A seeming contradiction given our earthly frame of reference. But with a Martian frame these observations make sense. When the seas are present, life would quickly emerge from underground hibernation, and the soil would then build. When the climate changed the seas would withdraw and leave behind just what we see. Except perhaps for a blanket of sand that has weathered away. Life would retreat underground and find a suitable transition space, such as between ice and water, fresh and salt water. When no surface water is possible, bacteria would be the primary life. When the seas returned this bacteria could quickly evolve into higher life forms such as two or more celled organisms. A season on Mars is an ice age, not a year. We should look for the soil, not water, to understand this ecosystem and find our answers. Where there is soil, there is water and life below. Jonathan Blah blah blah. You're just talking out of your ass again. Didn't your first bitch slapping by reality teach you any lessons? So now you have a new theory, how do you propose to test it? Supposedly Mars is going to form seas again, assuming it ever had any in the first place. Got any proof for that? Any idea at all how that is supposed to happen? "One explanation could be that Mars is just coming out of an ice age," Feldman said http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/odys...20031208a.html |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
On the ...ABSURDITY of Nasa's Search for Water Part 2
"El Guapo" wrote in message news:rlycc.78246$gA5.960257@attbi_s03... "jonathan" wrote in message ... Blah blah blah. You're just talking out of your ass again. Didn't your first bitch slapping by reality teach you any lessons? So now you have a new theory, how do you propose to test it? Supposedly Mars is going to form seas again, assuming it ever had any in the first place. Got any proof for that? Any idea at all how that is supposed to happen? "One explanation could be that Mars is just coming out of an ice age," Feldman said http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/odys...20031208a.html He's giving one possible explanation for why there is more subsurface water ice than would be expected given the current climate. In other words, he's wondering why the ice hasn't dissipated into the atmosphere. In no way does that imply that Mars will heat up enough to allow standing water, or that the surface will be covered with lakes or seas. Didn't you even read the article? He's also saying that the observations show evidence of recent climate change as in periodic ice ages waxing and waning. That the water has not found an equilibrium. At the last Nasa conference several minutes were spent speculating that these bodies of water could be covered by ice. Protecting them from the thin atmosphere. Certainly any standing water would freeze over or evaporate. But enough water melting out might create ice capped lakes. A spring fed lake could certainly be replenished faster then the ice cap would ablate away. Jonathan s |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
NASA's Finances in Disarray; $565 Billion in Adjustments | Don Corleone | Space Shuttle | 8 | May 18th 04 03:19 PM |
NASA's Multi-Million Dollar Search for Other Earths | Kevin Smith | Space Shuttle | 0 | April 22nd 04 01:25 PM |
NASA's Multi-Million Dollar Search for Other Earths | Kevin Smith | Space Station | 0 | April 22nd 04 01:25 PM |
NASA's year of sorrow, recovery, progress and success | Jacques van Oene | Space Shuttle | 0 | December 31st 03 07:28 PM |
NASA's year of sorrow, recovery, progress and success | Jacques van Oene | Space Station | 0 | December 31st 03 07:28 PM |