Dynamics of a failed ISS

On 9/6/2011 9:08 AM, David Spain wrote:

Or just into a higher EO, one where we won't have to deal with it for
decades or centuries rather than "within a decade".

You get it into the Van Allen belts long enough, and the metals on it
might ending up being partially isotopes.
Can't resist bringing up Disney's Mars ships using their ion engines to
slowly climb out of Earth orbit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wIXZ...eature=related
I've got to make a model of one of those someday; I've always loved
their design.

Pat

On 9/6/2011 11:54 AM, Wayne Throop wrote:
: Pat
: You get it into the Van Allen belts long enough, and the metals on it
: might ending up being partially isotopes.

Really? Are there neutrons in the VABs (didn't expect there was anything`
but charged particles) or high enough energy particles (didn't expect they
were much above non-flare solar wind energy)?


Here's the stuff on the belts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Allen_radiation_belt
The outer one doesn't sound too bad, but the inner one does.
Protons are created by the Beta decay of neutrons created by cosmic rays
hitting nuclei in the upper atmosphere.
Even more dangerous is the proclivity of the belts to catch fire, as
shown in the movie "Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea".
This is no doubt due to the recently confirmed antiprotons in it
creating a reverse tachyon field in it and generating a Krieger Wave
Luckily, Admiral Nelson knew how to deal with this, and by reversing the
hydrogen flow through the Seaview's Lorenz drive system's Bussard
collectors while simultaneously launching a missile containing a
particle of protomatter into the belts, blew them clean off the Earth,
thereby saving it.
At least that's what I think he did, as it would be the obvious
solution... but I was still hiding under the theater seat because I was
scared of the big octopus that showed up earlier in the movie and made
noises like a garbage disposal. ;-)

Pat

On 09/06/2011 11:59 AM, David Spain wrote:

But I really like the idea of using old hardware for feedstock for
future programs. Why not? Why pay the price to get it up there twice?

You'll probably wind up paying twice.

Think "Junkyard Wars", the "Space" edition... ;-)

Structurally what can the ISS withstand to get it further out, to say a
Lagrange point? Could an ion-engine assist work?

Structures are not a problem with a low-thrust engine.

Do the solar arrays
even generate enough power to do it if all life-support were shutdown?

Depends on how long it takes to get through the Van Allen belts. The
radiation will degrade the arrays.

Henry doesn't think we have electronics hardened enough to withstand a
slow transit across the Van Allen belts for an un-crewed automated
journey, which is the true shame.

Henry's right.

I would postulate that for this idea to have a chance it would require
some retro-fit anyway,

Total retro-fit of all avionics, quite a bit of which is external and
would need to be EVA-replaced. Definitely over a hundred EVA hours,
possibly considerably more.

USOS Thermal control system would also need a total makeover, since it
is designed for the LEO environment.

On Tue, 06 Sep 2011 15:39:20 -0800, Pat Flannery
wrote:

Even more dangerous is the proclivity of the belts to catch fire, as
shown in the movie "Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea".
This is no doubt due to the recently confirmed antiprotons in it
creating a reverse tachyon field in it and generating a Krieger Wave
Luckily, Admiral Nelson knew how to deal with this, and by reversing the
hydrogen flow through the Seaview's Lorenz drive system's Bussard
collectors while simultaneously launching a missile containing a
particle of protomatter into the belts, blew them clean off the Earth,
thereby saving it.
At least that's what I think he did, as it would be the obvious
solution... but I was still hiding under the theater seat because I was
scared of the big octopus that showed up earlier in the movie and made
noises like a garbage disposal. ;-)

And that movie ends with 'happy, happy, joy, joy... we saved the
world" which is strange since news accounts and contact with the
outside world heard throughout the movie imply the world is pretty
much already destroyed. Certainly starvation on a collosal scale and
the end of the world as we know it.

But hey, Barbara Eden survived to help start the world over, so all
was not lost.

Brian

Pat Flannery wrote:

If you could get it in a 1,000 mile high orbit, the air drag would be so
low that it could stay up for decades, if not centuries.

But so can the space junk. The lower altitudes where reboosts are needed
are relatively clean.

--
Mvh./Regards, Niels Jørgen Kruse, Vanløse, Denmark

Pat Flannery wrote:
Brian Thorn wrote:

But hey, Barbara Eden survived to help start the world over, so all
was not lost.

If you think the Van Allen Belt was hot, check out her rear end in that
movie:

Something had to ignire the Van Allen belt. The cause may as well have
been one that good.

On 9/6/2011 6:47 PM, Brian Thorn wrote:

But hey, Barbara Eden survived to help start the world over, so all
was not lost.

If you think the Van Allen Belt was hot, check out her rear end in that
movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFIDjm8-400
This is what's going to happen when they let women aboard atomic
submarines... at least the male crew members hope so.

Pat

On 9/7/2011 7:10 AM, Doug Freyburger wrote:

If you think the Van Allen Belt was hot, check out her rear end in that
movie:

Something had to ignire the Van Allen belt. The cause may as well have
been one that good.


She also looked pretty hot in "The 7 faces Of Dr. Lao" when the satyr
was getting her turned on.
It would be fun to know what percentage of people today would believe
the Van Allen Belt could actually catch fire after seeing that movie;
unfortunately, probably well over 90%.
The sky effect was done by shooting a whole bunch of flamethrowers at
once and filming it. Allen's "Seaview" was a really memorable sub
design, ranking up there with Disney's "Nautilus" for being a striking
design.

Pat

In article 3c623052-0cd7-4063-9db0-
, says...

ISS ground track is mostly over the most populated part of the
world.... probably any breakup would see some debris impacting
populated areas......

Actually, most of the world is ocean. I wouldn't consider the ocean to
be "the most populated part of the world".

mjor damage or deaths will see demands to end man in space since
theres little science coming from the station even now with a full
crew of 6....... if social security and medicare are being cut, nasas
budget will be shrinking too

So, Bob, in all of history, how many people have died as a result of
man-made falling space debris?

Jeff
--
" Ares 1 is a prime example of the fact that NASA just can't get it
up anymore... and when they can, it doesn't stay up long. "
- tinker

On Sep 8, 10:05*am, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article 3c623052-0cd7-4063-9db0-
, says...



ISS ground track is mostly over the most populated part of the
world.... probably any breakup would see some debris impacting
populated areas......

Actually, most of the world is ocean. *I wouldn't consider the ocean to
be "the most populated part of the world". *

mjor damage or deaths will see demands to end man in space since
theres little science coming from the station even now with a full
crew of 6....... if social security and medicare are being cut, nasas
budget will be shrinking too

So, Bob, in all of history, how many people have died as a result of
man-made falling space debris?

Jeff
--
" Ares 1 is a prime example of the fact that NASA just can't get it
* up anymore... and when they can, it doesn't stay up long. "
* *- tinker

so how ofen has the world have a million pound station in orbit? made
up of many modules?

better question.......

the shuttle has flown forever with o ring burn thru issues, and foam
shedding troubles......

yet its never caused a loss so it must be safe..........