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SuperDraco's Also Key to Falcon 9 Reuse?



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 28th 12, 09:20 PM posted to sci.space.station
David Spain
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Default SuperDraco's Also Key to Falcon 9 Reuse?

Jeff Findley wrote:
From what I understand, reusable launch vehicles are being treated a bit
different than aircraft. The guys on ARocket know the gory details
because they're actually fling small, reusable, VTVL liquid fueled
vehicles for quite some time. SpaceX is definitely scaling things up,
but I don't see anything they're trying that's completely unproven.


Good point. I should go back through the ARocket archive and look into this a
bit more, esp. to see what the Armadillo folks have to say about this.

Dave
  #12  
Old February 29th 12, 02:37 PM posted to sci.space.station
Jeff Findley[_2_]
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Default SuperDraco's Also Key to Falcon 9 Reuse?

In article , nospam@
127.0.0.1 says...

Jeff Findley wrote:
From what I understand, reusable launch vehicles are being treated a bit
different than aircraft. The guys on ARocket know the gory details
because they're actually fling small, reusable, VTVL liquid fueled
vehicles for quite some time. SpaceX is definitely scaling things up,
but I don't see anything they're trying that's completely unproven.


Good point. I should go back through the ARocket archive and look into this a
bit more, esp. to see what the Armadillo folks have to say about this.


Since I'm an aerospace engineer by degree, I tend to pay close attention
to the technical side of things on ARocket. But the observation has
been made on ARocket many times that it is more difficult and time
consuming to get launch licenses than engineering types like me would
think.

As far as current state of the art is concerned, I'd think that
Armadillo Aerospace has as much experience with liquid fueled rocket
powered VTVL control algorithms as anyone else in the business.

Jeff
--
" Ares 1 is a prime example of the fact that NASA just can't get it
up anymore... and when they can, it doesn't stay up long. "
- tinker
  #13  
Old February 29th 12, 06:03 PM posted to sci.space.station
David Spain
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Default SuperDraco's Also Key to Falcon 9 Reuse?

Jeff Findley wrote:
As far as current state of the art is concerned, I'd think that
Armadillo Aerospace has as much experience with liquid fueled rocket
powered VTVL control algorithms as anyone else in the business.


No doubt! The guys at SpaceX that think they can bring F9 stage one down in
one piece ought to talk the Armadillo folks about active control of something
with a long lever arm. Forget about cross-winds, just pretend you're bringing
the whole thing down in a vacuum. That seems plenty hard right there. Oh and
don't forget the weight in that arm tends to shift a bit to and fro...

Dave
  #14  
Old March 1st 12, 09:26 AM posted to sci.space.station
snidely
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Default SuperDraco's Also Key to Falcon 9 Reuse?

David Spain was thinking very hard :
Jeff Findley wrote:
As far as current state of the art is concerned, I'd think that Armadillo
Aerospace has as much experience with liquid fueled rocket powered VTVL
control algorithms as anyone else in the business.


No doubt! The guys at SpaceX that think they can bring F9 stage one down in
one piece ought to talk the Armadillo folks about active control of something
with a long lever arm. Forget about cross-winds, just pretend you're bringing
the whole thing down in a vacuum. That seems plenty hard right there. Oh and
don't forget the weight in that arm tends to shift a bit to and fro...


You seem to think that it is more difficult to control coming down than
going up.

/dps

--
Who, me?


  #15  
Old March 1st 12, 01:03 PM posted to sci.space.station
Jochem Huhmann
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Posts: 606
Default SuperDraco's Also Key to Falcon 9 Reuse?

Snidely writes:

David Spain was thinking very hard :
Jeff Findley wrote:
As far as current state of the art is concerned, I'd think that
Armadillo Aerospace has as much experience with liquid fueled rocket
powered VTVL control algorithms as anyone else in the business.


No doubt! The guys at SpaceX that think they can bring F9 stage one
down in one piece ought to talk the Armadillo folks about active
control of something with a long lever arm. Forget about cross-winds,
just pretend you're bringing the whole thing down in a vacuum. That
seems plenty hard right there. Oh and don't forget the weight in that
arm tends to shift a bit to and fro...


You seem to think that it is more difficult to control coming down than
going up.


Powering through the atmosphere with nearly empty fuel tanks and no full
second stage and payload on top (and the center of gravity resulting
from that) *is* more difficult. A F9 first stage on its own with nearly
empty fuel tanks will try very hard to fly with the bottom forward.


Jochem

--
"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  #16  
Old March 1st 12, 03:30 PM posted to sci.space.station
Jeff Findley[_2_]
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Posts: 1,388
Default SuperDraco's Also Key to Falcon 9 Reuse?

In article , says...

Snidely writes:

David Spain was thinking very hard :
Jeff Findley wrote:
As far as current state of the art is concerned, I'd think that
Armadillo Aerospace has as much experience with liquid fueled rocket
powered VTVL control algorithms as anyone else in the business.

No doubt! The guys at SpaceX that think they can bring F9 stage one
down in one piece ought to talk the Armadillo folks about active
control of something with a long lever arm. Forget about cross-winds,
just pretend you're bringing the whole thing down in a vacuum. That
seems plenty hard right there. Oh and don't forget the weight in that
arm tends to shift a bit to and fro...


You seem to think that it is more difficult to control coming down than
going up.


Powering through the atmosphere with nearly empty fuel tanks and no full
second stage and payload on top (and the center of gravity resulting
from that) *is* more difficult. A F9 first stage on its own with nearly
empty fuel tanks will try very hard to fly with the bottom forward.


If you're braking for landing, don't you want the bottom forward?

Jeff
--
" Ares 1 is a prime example of the fact that NASA just can't get it
up anymore... and when they can, it doesn't stay up long. "
- tinker
  #17  
Old March 1st 12, 05:02 PM posted to sci.space.station
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default SuperDraco's Also Key to Falcon 9 Reuse?

Snidely wrote:
You seem to think that it is more difficult to control coming down than
going up.


I do.

Dave
  #18  
Old March 1st 12, 05:16 PM posted to sci.space.station
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default SuperDraco's Also Key to Falcon 9 Reuse?

David Spain wrote:
Snidely wrote:
You seem to think that it is more difficult to control coming down
than going up.


I do.

Dave


Unless I can get rid of that bulky, aerodynamic column with loose mass that I
can't thrust into stability and that works against me most at the worst time
possible, a time when I need it to be most stable, when my airspeed is almost nil.

Dave
  #19  
Old March 1st 12, 09:42 PM posted to sci.space.station
snidely
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Posts: 1,303
Default SuperDraco's Also Key to Falcon 9 Reuse?

David Spain formulated on Thursday :
David Spain wrote:
Snidely wrote:
You seem to think that it is more difficult to control coming down than
going up.


I do.


Unless I can get rid of that bulky, aerodynamic column with loose mass that I
can't thrust into stability and that works against me most at the worst time
possible, a time when I need it to be most stable, when my airspeed is almost
nil.


I don't know what SpaceX's response to this is, but I'd think that a
small ring of thrusters at the upper end would provide sufficient
control (with today's processors) and would have less impact on the
payload-to-orbit than adding a set of SuperDraco's.

I'm sure Elon's people have been keeping an eye on flight tests by
Bezo's crew and Armadillo, plus all the DC-X reports (granted that DC-X
was stubbier than an F9-1st).

/dps

--
Who, me?


  #20  
Old March 1st 12, 10:41 PM posted to sci.space.station
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default SuperDraco's Also Key to Falcon 9 Reuse?

Snidely wrote:
I don't know what SpaceX's response to this is, but I'd think that a
small ring of thrusters at the upper end would provide sufficient
control (with today's processors) and would have less impact on the
payload-to-orbit than adding a set of SuperDraco's.


Well that would help and yes I agree with what you say. I think you have a
good idea there.

I'm sure Elon's people have been keeping an eye on flight tests by
Bezo's crew and Armadillo, plus all the DC-X reports (granted that DC-X
was stubbier than an F9-1st).


I'd be curious to know how stable Armadillo's tethered Stig runs were.
That was one strange looking test rig. Anybody else ever try this?

Dave
 




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