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NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide
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NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2017-04-30 04:00, Fred J. McCall wrote: Also the whole "we have no space suits" thing. Go back to watch "From the Earth to the Moon". Where there is a will, there is a budget to get it doen quickly enough. So $200 million and eight years isn't enough money and time? What is wrong with ACER and Shuttle/station suits that couldn't be used for first manned flight? I assume you mean "ACES". Insufficient mobility. Insufficient duration. You need to keep in mind what ACES was designed for. That being said, modifying ACES to be suitable (closed loop life support, improved mobility) is precisely the track that will produce suits in 2021. ISS suits suffer from the same mobility problem and are too bulky to be worn in Orion as 'capsule suits'. In addition, WE DON'T HAVE ANY SPARE ONES. There are a total of 11 of those things left in service. Four of them are on ISS. The other seven are used here on Earth for testing of issues that occur with the four that are in use. We probably don't have enough of these suits to be sure of just getting through the ISS program. If NASA is just spending Pork money on R&D for totally new suits, perhaps it needs to stop and just use existing suits, unless something terribly wrong/incompatible has been identified. THERE ARE NO EXISTING SUITS! Do you not read simple English? Also the "we don't have the required Deep Space communications or support networks in place. Since the flights are just a spin around the block which doesn't even include a weekend camping stop on the moon, do we even need a deep space communication network? Yeah, we can do without life support, too. I mean, it's a short trip, right? No reason why we might want to talk to them or they might want to breath or stuff like that. I know that the origianl deep space dishes in westernm Australia (Carnarvon) have been decommissioned, one destroyed, the other a museum), but surely there are others that can be used ? I don't have time to educate you on this stuff given the magnitude of your ignorance. Also the whole "the ground facilities aren't set up to launch people right now" thing. And why aren't they ready? Because the first manned flight of Orion isn't planned until out in 2021-2022 and you don't spend a bunch of money doing things you don't need for half a decade. That's also why we don't have spacesuits in hand, by the way. Nasa began to "convert" the shuttle pad right after the last flight. How come it woudn't be ready by now. It isn't as if NASA never built such structures, they built them for the Apollo programme. And they might even be able to re-use the rotating arm/white room frm Shuttle era if re-installed at the right elevation. Things that are different are not the same. SLS/Orion isn't the Shuttle. More and more, it looks to me like PORL boondogle where even NASA has known this was just a "make work" project to keep politicians and ATK happy without any expectations of it ever doing anything useful, so no urgency in getting things done. Now that they are afrraid the project might get cut because it is so ludicrous, they are waking up to years of working without a purpose and wondering hwo to get something deliverable. Ask yourself how many times politicians have redirected just what Orion is supposed to be and do. Congress is the PROBLEM. Well, them and the President. For the first flight, the capsule will be the only habitable volume, right? no attached pressurized module for extra space? What difference does that make? Wondering what sort of deliverables are needed to make a manned flight. First manned flight of this thing was scheduled for 4-5 years from now. You don't just move the schedules for EVERYTHING a couple years to the left. Have you ever run anything more complicated than a mop and a deep fryer? politically motivated idiocy elided -- "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson |
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NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2017-04-30 21:43, Jeff Findley wrote: ACES is only a launch/entry suit. The problem is lack of EVA suits. And there are precious few functioning shuttle EMUs. In the case of the weekend road trip around the moon without any camping there, are EVA suits necessary? I know it would be politically incorrect to send them up without any suits, but what are the odds of them seening an EVA suit? Even Apollo 13 didn't get to use EVA suits. EVA suits are not the only problem. There are the "keep your ass alive if something goes wrong" suits, which we also don't have. Remember, THIS IS AN EXPERIMENTAL VEHICLE. The 'wear in the capsule' suits are scheduled for delivery in 2021 or so. You can't just **** some magic dust and have them significantly sooner. The problem is for the money spent, they don't have actual suits. They have some technology demonstrators, not actual EVA suits. Parson my stupitdy here, No, I won't. You are persistently stupid and you need to stop doing it. but can't they just order some Shutte/ISS suits to get started and finish work on the "new and improved" suits at their own leasure? Those suits can then go to ISS once the "new and improved" ones are ready. So much ignorance. So little interest in correcting it. However, I'll drop a few facts on you. 1) We probably don't have enough ISS suits to support ISS through the rest of its life. Again, there are 11 of these suits with working life support left in inventory. 2) These suits have an endurance of 8 hours, not the 8 days potentially needed for EM-2. 3) These are rigid suits, totally incompatible with the whole idea of sitting in a capsule. 4) The existing suits are already past their 15 year lifespans. 5) You can't just 'order more', any more than you can call up Ford and order a 1958 Edsel. By the time you let a contract and reconstituted the capability to build them, you'd have the new Orion suit scheduled for delivery around 2022. 6) What kind of 'Exploration Suit' you need rather depends on what you're going to be doing in it. Are you just going to be doing short duration maintenance type things in orbit somewhere? That's one suit. Do you plan on landing on something? That's a different suit. Constant mission change is part of why NASA doesn't have a decent path to this kind of suit. Or did NASA design the Orion hatch to specifically prevent use of the ISS suits? (square ped in round hatch?) Did Mother Nature design your brain so that it wouldn't fit in your skull, so it was just left on a shelf somewhere? show for it (little flying anyway). Pad 39-B isn't ready for manned SLS/Orion flights, end of story. Why is that? Is it q question of the specs for SLS/Orion not having been finalized until recently so they coudln't design the pad structures , not knowing at what height the hatch for Orion would be, where connection for O2, H2 etc ewould be made ? Because you SCHEDULE that **** to happen when it needs to happen, not years before you need it. Without the luxury of unlimited money, you buy **** as you need it. Why don't you have 30 years of food in the pantry? After all these years, it seems to me that at the very least, they could have converted the pad to match the specs of that Orion/SLS thing. At what cost? Wouldn't it make more sense to spend the money as the need gets closer and spend that past money on, oh, I don't know, actually developing that SLS/Orion thingy? Its like NASA has known this was a rocket to nowhere and was hoping it would get cancelled before they have to permanently tear down structures that could help a return of the shuttle. It's like you don't understand scheduling anything more complicated than your morning ****. -- "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong." -- Thomas Jefferson |
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NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2017-05-01 06:12, Jeff Findley wrote: Also, EMUs aren't a good choice at all for exploring planetary surfaces. From a recent Aviation Week article on the subject: Since Orion isn't gonna land on a planet other than Earth, the only use for a spacesuit would be for an EVA in 0g during the weekend road trip around the moon (without landing there). Wrong. Remember, we're talking about an eight day mission in a spacecraft that has never flown crewed. If something goes wrong and the environment in the capsule becomes 'shirt sleeve unfriendly', you'd still kind of like to get your astronauts back. That means you need a suit you can stuff them into that has a duration of days, not hours. Is Orion even designed to support EVAs? (think about all electronics needing to be water cooled so they don't die when whole capsule is drained of air so hatch can be opened.) Of course it's designed to support EVAs. You think Orion electronics would ever be air cooled? That's so cute! Water is also pretty unlikely. If NASA is stalling first manned flight with "suits not ready" excuse, it seems to me it is a fabricated excuse and there is another reason for the delay which NASA doesn't want to reveal. It seems to me that you're an idiot and need someone to empty your drool cup for you. Is it possible that NASA knows that SLS will never be man-rated due to vibration from SRBs, or having such large tanks Is it possible that unicorns might run through the capsule and **** magic dust all over everything? when such suits are clearly not needed for that flight, there there is something else to the need for the delay. It's good that you aren't in charge of anything more sophisticated than the french fry fryer. You want space suits in case something goes wrong with the experimental vehicle that people have never flown in before. What you want is something LIKE an ACES suit but with a lot more duration. Oddly, that is precisely what NASA has in the project schedule; something very like an ACES suit but with better mobility (because you have to wear it for longer) and with closed loop life support so that it lasts longer. snip idiot speculation -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
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NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2017-05-01 20:39, Jeff Findley wrote: I don't think you understand the details of what's involved here. Why can't Shuttle/ISS EMUs and the ACES suits be used for manned Orion flights around the moon? Because ACES suits don't exist anymore and there are precisely 11 ISS EMUs and I wouldn't want to spend 8 days in a suit with a max 8 hour duration. ACES is open loop life support, which means it doesn't have sufficient duration for the mission. It also doesn't have sufficient mobility to spend 8 days in it. The only excuse I have goptten so far is that those suits are not well suited for on-planet operations. Sicne there are no on-planet missions planned for Orion, why are new suits a requirememnt so important it is part of the delays cited for manned flight ? Well, then you should open your ****ing eyes and pay attention. I've explained this to you AT LEAST five times. New suits are a requirement because you'd like to get the astronauts back if something goes wrong. That's b.s. SLS will almost certainly be as smooth, or smoother, to fly on than the shuttle. That is the first time I see someone make that claim here. So is SLS's only problem cost? And whatever problems NASA is working on are fairly minor "debugging" and no show stopping problems ? I'm sure you frequently have that 'first time' feeling, given that you appear to have the memory of a mayfly. What NASA is working on is normal development and integration. -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
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NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2017-05-01 21:13, Fred J. McCall wrote: I assume you mean "ACES". Insufficient mobility. Insufficient duration. You need to keep in mind what ACES was designed for. And what is wrong with ACES for liftoff/landing ? Isn't "duration" about the same for orbit insertion? They're going around the Moon, you nitwit. It's an eight day mission. You'd like to get them back if something goes wrong. This is an experimental vehicle that has never flown in a fully integrated state, much less had people on it. ISS suits suffer from the same mobility problem and are too bulky to be worn in Orion as 'capsule suits'. For the planned Orion flighst around the moon and back, there would be no mission needs to land, there would ne no mission requirement to test suits. The EMUs would be there in case of a problem requiring an unplanned emergency EVA. (undeployed solar panel for instance). You don't have an airlock on Orion, so if you're going to EVA *EVERYONE* needs a suit and they better last long enough to get you home. And those suits would be used in the very same was as they were in the shuttle and ISS, to do an IVA in 0G space. Not on Mars, not on Moon, not on Saturn or wherever NASA PR says Orion will take humans. And what do the non-EVA troops breath? Vacuum? Where are you going to put four EMUs in a four-man capsule? In addition, WE DON'T HAVE ANY SPARE ONES. Every heard of using existing designs to make more? As I said in previous post, after teh 4 Orion flights are done and project cancelled, you then have EMU suist that can be used on ISS. Call up Ford and order a 1958 Edsel. I'll wait... Yeah, we can do without life support, too. I mean, it's a short trip, right? No reason why we might want to talk to them or they might want to breath or stuff like that. So ECLSS is also late ? The initial flights will have an Orion without any ECLSS? is that what you're saying? No, you dip****. I'm pointing out that being able to talk to the ****ing capsule is as important as having air. It being a 'short trip' is irrelevant to that. You understand that when things happen in flight it's the folks on the ground who find solutions, right? Without communications, the guys on the ground who figure out solutions don't know anything has gone wrong and can't tell the crew what to do to try to fix it even if they did know. After all these years and the ability to test on ISS in 0g, they still don't have a working ECLSS system? After all these years and the ability to test in real life, you still don't have a brain? -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
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NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide
JF Mezei wrote:
On 2017-05-02 02:37, Fred J. McCall wrote: Because ACES suits don't exist anymore and there are precisely 11 ISS EMUs and I wouldn't want to spend 8 days in a suit with a max 8 hour duration. So, on Soyuz, Apollo and Shuttle, first thing after launch is get out of the launch suits and spend rest of trip in shirt sleeve clothing until you don the launch/re-entry suits again just before re-entry. Not fully true, but whatever. You do like to compare apples and aardvarks, don't you? But on Orion, you claim the crews will need to stay in pressure suits the whole way? Do I need to kick you in the ass to dislodge your head, because it seems to be stuck up there? Hypothetical: Your spacecraft suffers a decompression incident halfway to the Moon. What do you do? Remember, this is a vehicle that has NEVER flow full up and has NEVER flown crewed. Soyuz suits are good for a bit over two hours. If a Soyuz suffers decompression they MUST land within that two hours. ACES is good for 10 minutes. It assumes you're plugged into vehicle life support systems. Note that Shuttle astronauts didn't wear suits at all inside the vehicle until after Challenger. If you didn't have the EVA backpack or an umbillical, the Apollo suits were good for 30 minutes. The EVA backpack was good for seven hours. -- "Rule Number One for Slayers - Don't die." -- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer |
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NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide
Jeff Findley wrote:
In article , says... But on Orion, you claim the crews will need to stay in pressure suits the whole way? Do I need to kick you in the ass to dislodge your head, because it seems to be stuck up there? Hypothetical: Your spacecraft suffers a decompression incident halfway to the Moon. What do you do? Remember, this is a vehicle that has NEVER flow full up and has NEVER flown crewed. Soyuz suits are good for a bit over two hours. If a Soyuz suffers decompression they MUST land within that two hours. ACES is good for 10 minutes. It assumes you're plugged into vehicle life support systems. Note that Shuttle astronauts didn't wear suits at all inside the vehicle until after Challenger. If you didn't have the EVA backpack or an umbillical, the Apollo suits were good for 30 minutes. The EVA backpack was good for seven hours. Yes you need to have the suits available in case of a contingency, so you want to certify them for the longest contingency anticipated (i.e. depressurization when the capsule is "most of the way" to lunar orbit). But, even the Apollo 7 press kit said: https://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a410/A07_PressKit.pdf Early in the flight, the crew may doff pressure suits and don the inflight coveralls. From page 58: Apollo 7 Spacesuits Apollo 7 crewmen, for the first hours of flight, and for the four hours prior to the de-orbit burn, will wear the A7L pressure garment assembly -- a multi-layer spacesuit coneisting of a helmet, torso and gloves which can be pressurized independ- ently of the spacecraft. So, barring spacewalks and contingencies, the suits were needed about four hours before luanch ("T-3:45 - Don pressure suits"), during the first few hours of flight, four hours prior to descent, and then while they waited for recovery. So, the suits had to work for two approximately 8 hour stretches. You wouldn't really want to wear an Apollo suit much more than 8 hours at a time anyway. It takes a lot longer to get back if you lose pressure on the way to the Moon. It's not like you can just turn around and come back. This is why they flew SIX unmanned missions with the hardware before the first time they trusted it with crew. We don't get that level of confidence with Orion, especially if we fly the FIRST mission with a crew, so I'd kind of want a suit that can get them home if **** goes wrong. NASA apparently feels the same way, which is why they're going from open loop life support on the suits to closed loop. -- "Rule Number One for Slayers - Don't die." -- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer |
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NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide
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