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#11
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Power Satellite Economics
Jeff Findley wrote:
In article , says... David Spain wrote: On 6/9/2017 5:24 AM, Fred J. McCall wrote: Terrestrial solar and wind drive UP prices unless they are heavily subsidized. Oh no argument from me. And if heavily subsidized the cost is shifted from direct payment of an electric bill to the indirect payment through higher taxes so you could have removed the "...unless" part of that. Just trying to keep anyone from leaping on 'consumer cost' and making claims that don't stand up. If the Middle East didn't contain copious amounts of oil, the US wouldn't have literally spent trillions of our tax dollars invading Iraq... twice. So this "renewables aren't fair because they're subsidized" is b.s. of the first order. If it wasn't for oil, the only involvement we'd have in the Middle East would be to make sure Israel can defend itself (which it can). You can counter my argument when the US has subsidized renewable energy to the same amount of tax dollars that we've spend on wars in the Middle East since the first Gulf War. You understand that the United States gets little to no oil from Iraq and the 'war for oil' meme is bull****, don't you? We also don't get all that much from Kuwait. Looking at all US petroleum imports (both crude oil and other petroleum products) from the top 15 importers to the US (which includes both Iraq and Kuwait) for 2016 comes out to around 9,061,000 barrels per day. Iraq's share of that comes to a little over 3%. Kuwait's contribution is around 2.25%. Hell, we get more petroleum from RUSSIA than we get from either Iraq or Kuwait. What do you think Iraq would have done with the oil barring US military action there? You think they're going to drink it, perhaps? -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
#12
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Power Satellite Economics
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#13
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Power Satellite Economics
Jeff Findley wrote:
In article , says... Jeff Findley wrote: In article , says... David Spain wrote: On 6/9/2017 5:24 AM, Fred J. McCall wrote: Terrestrial solar and wind drive UP prices unless they are heavily subsidized. Oh no argument from me. And if heavily subsidized the cost is shifted from direct payment of an electric bill to the indirect payment through higher taxes so you could have removed the "...unless" part of that. Just trying to keep anyone from leaping on 'consumer cost' and making claims that don't stand up. If the Middle East didn't contain copious amounts of oil, the US wouldn't have literally spent trillions of our tax dollars invading Iraq... twice. So this "renewables aren't fair because they're subsidized" is b.s. of the first order. If it wasn't for oil, the only involvement we'd have in the Middle East would be to make sure Israel can defend itself (which it can). You can counter my argument when the US has subsidized renewable energy to the same amount of tax dollars that we've spend on wars in the Middle East since the first Gulf War. You understand that the United States gets little to no oil from Iraq and the 'war for oil' meme is bull****, don't you? You do know petroleum is a global commodity, right? Remember the oil crisis of 1973? Yes, I do, but you do not appear to. We also don't get all that much from Kuwait. Correct, but we didn't want Iraq to go further and destabilize the entire Middle East. Do you think they would take up drinking their oil? If not, as you say, petroleum is a global commodity. Saudi Arabia, which was largely behind the oil crisis of 1973, learned a lesson from that. It's why you don't see them trying to use the 'oil weapon' anymore. Looking at all US petroleum imports (both crude oil and other petroleum products) from the top 15 importers to the US (which includes both Iraq and Kuwait) for 2016 comes out to around 9,061,000 barrels per day. Iraq's share of that comes to a little over 3%. Kuwait's contribution is around 2.25%. Hell, we get more petroleum from RUSSIA than we get from either Iraq or Kuwait. What do you think Iraq would have done with the oil barring US military action there? You think they're going to drink it, perhaps? Again, petroleum is a global commodity. Choke off supply from the entire Middle East and global supply would have suffered. The leaders in charge at the time pretty much all remembered 1973. And the entire Middle East is going to take up drinking oil? Never happen. They want to sell that ****. As you say, petroleum is a global commodity. Of course the two gulf wars were before large scale fracking became the technology of the day, which changes the equation somewhat. That and OPEC can't seem to get its members to reduce production, even when they all agree to do so. Again, this is because petroleum is a global commodity and today's lower prices are hurting many oil exporting nations. Today, OPEC member nations are not about to hurt themselves even more by reducing oil production. Like I said, they're not going to start drinking that ****. They want to sell it. You're living in a very simplistic world. Study up on what happens with cartels like OPEC. I would expect any reasonable economics text to have a treatment of the subject. If it weren't for oil, the US wouldn't have given a rat's ass that Iraq invaded Kuwait. Perhaps not, but a lot of First World countries gave a hell of a lot more than a rat's ass about the Middle East long, long before oil was an issue. Just why do you think that is? -- "Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar territory." --G. Behn |
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