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Speed of individual photons cannot exceed speed of light in a vacuum



 
 
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  #72  
Old August 5th 11, 07:35 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
PD
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Default Speed of individual photons cannot exceed speed of light in avacuum

On 8/4/2011 10:58 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 04/08/2011 9:40 PM, PD wrote:
On 7/31/2011 12:47 AM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 29/07/2011 10:06 AM, PD wrote:
Forgive me for saying this, but this is where you lapse into science
fiction, mixing real ideas with disconnected fantasy ideas. For
example,
you lock everything in terms of Planck lengths and Planck times, which
are numbers that applies to our 4 spacetime dimensions, but then you
casually toss in "higher dimensions" without any consideration for
whether Planck scales even mean anything with the inclusion of those
"higher dimensions". Then there is the term "super-energizing one
Planck
length of space" and I have no idea what you mean by that, not to
mention why "super-energizing" anything would build a "causeway"
through
these "higher dimensions".

Well, I don't think I'm doing anything any more or less speculative than
what the vast majority of Superstring theorists are doing on a regular
basis.


To some extent I agree with you, but they do go a little further to
actually try to build something you can calculate with. This is of
course essential.


Well, I think that's their biggest problem, they are so enamoured with
the equations that they don't stop to understand the physics anymore.
They think if it's got a fabulous equation that seems to fit one set of
data, then that equation must be telling them something about the
universe, and they should be trying to fit every other piece of data
through the same equation.


In the case of string theory, you are a little off base. String theory
offers no equation that is an empirical fit to data -- if it did that,
then it might be on firmer ground.

Instead, string theory is based on a physical concept of the modes of a
vibrating string in 2D. From here, you can build the analog of Feynman
diagrams, which you will recall are highly visual descriptors of the
contributions that add up to an interaction between particles. The
calculations that come from those Feynman diagrams is what is appealing
about string theory, in that they behave a lot better than do the
analogous but highly successful ones for electrons and photons in QED.


Here, I'm trying to figure out a physical description of the mechanism
that can be visualized somewhat in our minds.


Here, string theory is actually appealing, as it does have a highly
visual mechanism. I think it might be worth your while to understand
this aspect of string theory.

  #73  
Old August 6th 11, 02:54 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Yousuf Khan[_2_]
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Default Speed of individual photons cannot exceed speed of light in avacuum

On 05/08/2011 2:35 AM, PD wrote:
On 8/4/2011 10:58 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Well, I think that's their biggest problem, they are so enamoured with
the equations that they don't stop to understand the physics anymore.
They think if it's got a fabulous equation that seems to fit one set of
data, then that equation must be telling them something about the
universe, and they should be trying to fit every other piece of data
through the same equation.


In the case of string theory, you are a little off base. String theory
offers no equation that is an empirical fit to data -- if it did that,
then it might be on firmer ground.


No, actually String theory offers us equations that are a fit for all
data. Nothing can be falsified, because all you need to do is rejig the
parameters and it'll fit the new data.

Here, I'm trying to figure out a physical description of the mechanism
that can be visualized somewhat in our minds.


Here, string theory is actually appealing, as it does have a highly
visual mechanism. I think it might be worth your while to understand
this aspect of string theory.


Yes, I'm familiar with the String theory visualization -- I've found a
few uses for it, such as multi-dimensional curling. But I'm leaning more
towards the Loop Quantum Gravity visualizations nowadays. I think a
combination of String theory and LQG might eventually become the
acceptable theory. LQG still requires multi-dimensionality like String
does, but it doesn't have to become the focus of that theory.

For example, the concept of bosons vs. fermions: fermions cannot occupy
the same quantum state, bosons can. How can multiple bosons occupy the
same quantum state, unless you visualize bosons occupying different
quantum states in dimensions above our 4 dimensions? Also when you get a
Bose-Einstein Condensate, you can turn a bunch of fermions into a large
super-boson, you definitely need to use multi-dimensions there.

Even the concept of point particles, like quarks and leptons having mass
requires the energy to loop around within them in virtual dimensions
above our own.

Yousuf Khan
  #75  
Old August 6th 11, 09:25 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
PD
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Posts: 1,572
Default Speed of individual photons cannot exceed speed of light in avacuum

On 8/5/2011 8:54 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 05/08/2011 2:35 AM, PD wrote:
On 8/4/2011 10:58 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Well, I think that's their biggest problem, they are so enamoured with
the equations that they don't stop to understand the physics anymore.
They think if it's got a fabulous equation that seems to fit one set of
data, then that equation must be telling them something about the
universe, and they should be trying to fit every other piece of data
through the same equation.


In the case of string theory, you are a little off base. String theory
offers no equation that is an empirical fit to data -- if it did that,
then it might be on firmer ground.


No, actually String theory offers us equations that are a fit for all
data. Nothing can be falsified, because all you need to do is rejig the
parameters and it'll fit the new data.


More or less, yes.


Here, I'm trying to figure out a physical description of the mechanism
that can be visualized somewhat in our minds.


Here, string theory is actually appealing, as it does have a highly
visual mechanism. I think it might be worth your while to understand
this aspect of string theory.


Yes, I'm familiar with the String theory visualization -- I've found a
few uses for it, such as multi-dimensional curling. But I'm leaning more
towards the Loop Quantum Gravity visualizations nowadays. I think a
combination of String theory and LQG might eventually become the
acceptable theory. LQG still requires multi-dimensionality like String
does, but it doesn't have to become the focus of that theory.

For example, the concept of bosons vs. fermions: fermions cannot occupy
the same quantum state, bosons can. How can multiple bosons occupy the
same quantum state, unless you visualize bosons occupying different
quantum states in dimensions above our 4 dimensions? Also when you get a
Bose-Einstein Condensate, you can turn a bunch of fermions into a large
super-boson, you definitely need to use multi-dimensions there.


I see two muddlings going on here. First of all you have confused
"quantum state" with "region of space". Secondly, you are assuming the
validity of the ancient Greek notion that no two physical objects can
occupy the same region of space at the same time.


Even the concept of point particles, like quarks and leptons having mass
requires the energy to loop around within them in virtual dimensions
above our own.

Yousuf Khan


  #76  
Old August 7th 11, 06:14 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Yousuf Khan[_2_]
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Posts: 1,692
Default Speed of individual photons cannot exceed speed of light in avacuum

On 06/08/2011 4:25 AM, PD wrote:
On 8/5/2011 8:54 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
For example, the concept of bosons vs. fermions: fermions cannot occupy
the same quantum state, bosons can. How can multiple bosons occupy the
same quantum state, unless you visualize bosons occupying different
quantum states in dimensions above our 4 dimensions? Also when you get a
Bose-Einstein Condensate, you can turn a bunch of fermions into a large
super-boson, you definitely need to use multi-dimensions there.


I see two muddlings going on here. First of all you have confused
"quantum state" with "region of space". Secondly, you are assuming the
validity of the ancient Greek notion that no two physical objects can
occupy the same region of space at the same time.


No, I haven't confused them, I have _deliberately_ equated them. There's
a difference here. I'm saying quantum states equate to something
physical in higher dimensions. We already talk about quantum states as
mapping to something in the so-called Hilbert Space. Hilbert Space is
assumed to be a virtual mathematical construct, but what if it's an
actual construct?

Yousuf Khan
  #77  
Old August 11th 11, 03:25 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Brad Guth[_3_]
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Posts: 15,175
Default Speed of individual photons cannot exceed speed of light in avacuum

On Aug 4, 4:17*pm, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 04/08/2011 3:01 PM, Brad Guth wrote:

Photons tell atoms to align, spin up or spin down. *That's pretty damn
intelligent.


Or that's simply their jobs, no intelligence required.

We don't, but it doesn't matter, as long as we get a wash of electrons
from one end of the conductor to the other. Does it matter to you if the
molecules of water that drown you in a tidal wave actually travelled all
of the way from Japan, or if they were actually the water molecules
sitting near your home?

It matters a great deal. *If photons do not actually move, tells us what?


It tells us that it's an energy transfer mechanism.

The electrons may be sitting there, but photons cannot sit anywhere.
Photons are either moving, or they are non-existent.


Yousuf Khan


I can't buy that interpretation. *Photons associated with a black hole are
not moving.


Photons inside a blackhole are still moving, just inside its event horizon.

  #78  
Old August 11th 11, 03:35 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Sam Wormley[_2_]
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Posts: 3,966
Default Speed of individual photons cannot exceed speed of light in avacuum

On 8/10/11 9:25 PM, Brad Guth wrote:
If a medium is photon friendly or conductive, then perhaps the
individual photon doesn't have to actually move.


Are you confusing photons and current?

From the quantum mechanical perspective, all photons travel at c.

1. photons are emitted (by charged particles)
2. *photons propagate at c*
3. photons are absorbed (by charged particles)

Photon momentum
p = hν/c = h/λ

Photon Energy
E = hν

  #79  
Old August 11th 11, 06:30 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Yousuf Khan[_2_]
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Posts: 1,692
Default Speed of individual photons cannot exceed speed of light in avacuum

On 10/08/2011 10:38 PM, Brad Guth wrote:
On Aug 4, 4:21 pm, Yousuf wrote:
On 04/08/2011 3:16 PM, Brad Guth wrote:
Planks are acting as photon transponder nodes?


You could think of it that way. Basically, each unit of Planck Length is
a unit of space, and a photon is a transfer of energy from one unit of
space to the next.

Yousuf Khan


Then why couldn't a plank unit of space simply instruct the next
available photon, and/or create the next photon, and so-forth?


What do you mean by "instruct"? A photon is just a passage of energy
through the space-time medium.

What are plancks made of?


"Plancks" aren't made of anything, they are just the measurement of
something. They are the length and time scale of an individual
space-time quanta, an atomic unit of aether some people might call it.

1.6163e-35 m seems long enough to put lots of point source stuff
into. Seems like a plank node would need a quantum circular FIFO XYZ
+/-V buffer and processor.


Whatever.

Yousuf Khan
 




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