A game for oriel36 et al to play

There are still a few people here who attempt to convince oriel36 of
the error of his reasoning.
I have claimed that he just simulates stupidity to annoy, frustrate
and generally wind-up people.

http://www.martin-nicholson.info/tro...llkelleher.htm

So lets see how and for how long he can evade answering a simple
question. A question that is central to where he parts company from
mainstream astronomical thought.

**** Do you accept that the sidereal day is less than 24 hours long
( about 23 h 56 m 4.1 s) Please answer either YES or NO ****

Any answer orial36 gives apart from the one word answer yes or no will
result in a fail grade. The question will then be asked again until he
does answer the question with a simple YES or NO.

On Nov 26, 8:54*am, badastrobuster wrote:
There are still a few people here who attempt to convince oriel36 of
the error of his reasoning.


Here's your answer -

"But that these feast days shall be celebrated in definite seasons for
them to keep for ever, and after the plan of the heaven established on
this day and that the case shall not occur, that all the Egyptian
festivals, now celebrated in winter, shall not be celebrated some time
or other in summer, on account of the precession of the rising of the
Divine Sothis by one day in the course of 4 years, and other festivals
celebrated in the summer, in this country, shall not be celebrated in
winter, as has occasionally occurred in past times, therefore it shall
be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so
one day as feast of Benevolent Gods [the pharaoh and family] be from
this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the New
Year, whereby all men shall learn, that what was a little defective in
the order as regards the seasons and the year, as also the opinions
which are contained in the rules of the learned on the heavenly
orbits, are now corrected and improved by the Benevolent Gods."

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/...pus_decree.htm

There was always an authority looking after these things whether it
was the Pharoahs or denominational Christianity until this era which
is the only one,ever to assign 366 1/4 rotations in 365 1/4 days
thereby attempting to destroy the relationship between the average 24
hour day and the day/night cycle and daily rotation.

I can't even begin to imagine what makes people completely ignore an
entire astronomical heritage for nonsense,for nothing yet these people
will promote themselves as making the world a better place.Keep on
repeating the question,if it wasn't that you are so intellectual
impotent you would be looking at just how old the timekeeping system
actually is and how magnificent these people were in putting it
together,the Canopus Decree is not the oldest reference to the system
but it is the first time the refined reasoning which determines the
fractional difference between daily and annual cycles is laid on
making it an incredibly important document.

Who wants to dwell in an atmosphere where you harp on about 'sidereal
time' and its ideology of 366 1/4 rotations in a year when there is a
heritage to recover.

On Nov 26, 1:54*am, badastrobuster wrote:

**** Do you accept that the sidereal day is less than 24 hours long
( about 23 h 56 m 4.1 s) Please answer either YES or NO ****

His answer is YES.

I will quote for you one of his posts which he made on April 12, 2008:

Stars do return in 23 hours 56 minutes 04 seconds but all that tells you is how good the calendar
system is or the observational convenience of the Ra/Dec system.

He accepts that the clock drive on a telescope needs to turn the
telescope through 360 degrees in the "sidereal day" of 23 hours, 56
minutes, and 4 seconds to keep the telescope properly pointed at the
same star.

However, he claims, from an earlier post in that thread on the same
date:

A star returning 3 minutes 56 seconds earlier without fail requires
the 3 year/365 day 1 year/366 day calendar system to work hence it is
useless to base axial and orbital motions on that false correlation for
axial rotation and the return of a star to a meridian.

In still another post:

Flamsteed determined that a star returning to a meridian 3 minutes 56
seconds earlier every 24 hour (24 hours minus 3 minute 56 seconds =
23 hours 56 minutes 04 seconds) represents the value for axial
rotation thereby obligating an explanation for orbital motion. to make
up the difference to 24 hours. Nobody stopped to check that you need
the calendar system along with zodiacal geometry to work and while
Newton tried to talk a system of 365 days 5 hours 49 minutes, if axial
rotation is taken as 23 hours 56 minutes 04 seconds it is 100% certain
that his framework is 3 years/365 days 1 year/366 days - the old
Ra/Dec system applied to the motions of the Earth.

This stuff looks to us like just plain bafflegab.

What he seems to me to be saying is:

(begin paraphrase)
When you say that the "sidereal day" is 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4
seconds long, well, you are right that it takes that amount of time
between successive crossings of the local meridian by a star. I've got
no problem with that.

But when you're saying that, look at those *hours* you're using to
measure that period of time by. 24 of those hours make one day - the
average time between mean solar noon.

So this is your foundation - the solar day, and the calendar which has
365 days in a year and one leap year every four years. That is your
starting point - the accomplishments of the ancient astronomers who
kept track of the seasons over many years and were able to average out
the number of days from one spring to the next.

The solar day is, therefore, the basic foundation of all astronomy. If
you try to ignore this foundation, and say that the Earth's rotation
is 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds instead, you're jumping
straight from the Earth to the stars. That ignores the fact that we
don't live in Ptolemy's cosmos, where the sphere of the fixed stars
rotates around a motionless Earth. So you're the ones who are
forgetting the great accomplishments of Copernicus and Galileo and
Kepler!
(end paraphrase)

Of course, *we* can see that there is a gaping hole in his logic.

If I want, I can change the length of the pendulum of a pendulum clock
so that its hands return to 12 noon after 11 hours, 58 minutes, and 2
seconds.

And I can acknowledge the fact that the Earth orbits the Sun by saying
that the "real" sidereal day is not determined by when a star crosses
the meridian, but by when the line from the Earth's center to my
observatory points in the same direction (projected to the Earth's
equatorial plane) as the direction from the Sun to that star. In other
words, I can correct for stellar parallax.

So the "sidereal day" can serve as a sound basis for a standard of
time, without having to adopt the Ptolemaic cosmos, if I cared to go
to the trouble.

But, of course, I don't need to do that. The solar day is the one that
tells us when the sun shines, dividing when we should work from when
we should sleep. The length of our unit of time is a convenience for
daily life, and while it came first historically because of that,
there is simply no reason to say it must be the "basis" for astronomy.

We note the fact that the return of a star to the meridian is uniform
and regular when measured by a pendulum clock or a quartz clock -
while the solar day, measured by a sundial, is not. To us, that means
the former must be the Earth's rotation - the Earth is a big heavy
ball of rock, and when one of those is spinning, it doesn't slow down
or speed up unless you push on it awfully hard.

To Oriel, all of _that_ is just a "predictions/modeling agenda" - he
rejects the great discovery of Newton that if you build on Galileo's
observations on mechanics, and turn mechanics into a science, and add
the inverse-square law of gravity... you get Kepler's laws, and thus
the planets are shown to follow the same rules as ordinary objects on
Earth, from gyroscopes to cannonballs.

That sort of stuff means that people would need to learn *calculus* to
understand astronomy, which just ruins it as an enjoyable activity,
and cuts it off from the heritage of the great thinkers of the past,
who used their intuition - and got correct results except when they
didn't have the Catholic Church guiding them with the wisdom of St.
Augustine, and so they went too far in their speculations!

I know what his mistakes are. You are quite correct that he won't
listen and correct his mistakes.

Given that he appears to me to have tied his own peculiar notions
about the heavens to his religious faith, I suppose that he won't
listen to us - and he would need to have this explained to him, very
patiently, by someone he could trust not to be an agent of atheism or
Protestantism. But I suspect that he has not even raised the subject
of his astronomical ideas with his parish priest.

And, of course, people have their own concerns and interests; not
everyone who is not an astronomer is an expert on astronomy. There are
astronomers who are Jesuits, for example, but none of them, perhaps,
has yet found the time to counsel Oriel on his mistakes.

John Savard

On Nov 26, 11:29*am, oriel36 wrote:


FAILED ONCE - I WILL TRY AGAIN

So lets see how and for how long he can evade answering a simple
question. A question that is central to where he parts company from
mainstream astronomical thought.


**** Do you accept that the sidereal day is less than 24 hours long
( about 23 h 56 m 4.1 s) Please answer either YES or NO ****


Any answer orial36 gives apart from the one word answer yes or no
will
result in a fail grade. The question will then be asked again until
he
does answer the question with a simple YES or NO.

On Nov 26, 2:53*pm, badastrobuster wrote:
On Nov 26, 11:29*am, oriel36 wrote:

FAILED ONCE - I WILL TRY AGAIN


You are going to keep this up and that is fine,it all amounts to the
only people who ever existed that believed there are 366 1/4 rotations
in 365 1/4 days in conflict with the most basic astronomical
observation of them all.

Failed indeed !,failed is when there is not another person who can
comprehend that daily and orbital motions are independent of each
other and the way the calendar system reflects the relationship
between daily and orbital motions ,perhaps the greatest astronomical
achievement of all outside the discovery of planetary dynamics by
Copernicus 500 years ago.

As the Feb 29th day/night cycle is also 24 hours of rotation,it is
something else to stand with pride among those ancient astronomers who
first proposed the system that was eventually adopted and improved
on through denominational Christianity as an extra rotation making up
an arithmetical string of average 24 hour days that eventually
substituted for steady rotation.

..."therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days
added to their end, so one day as feast of Benevolent Gods [the
pharaoh and family] be from this day after every 4 years added to the
5 epagomenae before the New Year, whereby all men shall learn, that
what was a little defective in the order as regards the seasons and
the year, as also the opinions which are contained in the rules of the
learned on the heavenly orbits, are now corrected and improved by the
Benevolent Gods."

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/...pus_decree.htm

Arguing for 366 1/4 rotations in a year and ,by extension,arguing for
'sidereal time' reasoning is trying to argue against the most basic
cause and effect known to man- that daily rotation is responsible for
the day/night cycle making you lot the dullest and most destructive
bunch of people to gain influence in an area which once was crucial
for a functioning society.What people do is cruel,even sadistic,but I
am mindful that there were once men who thought these things through
and had their work adopted by the civil authorities but not today,not
in this exceptionally intellectually vapid era which tries to ignore
fundamental astronomical facts,people with dead eyes and no heart who
will do everything to make this world a worse place so they can pilfer
a few dollars out of the obfuscation.

Fail indeed !,most of you probably never left college and can't think
for yourselves never mind reach the heights of all astronomers in an
unbroken chain and it is keeping the words of these astronomers front
and center that will change things so even somebody as dull as you
serve a purpose in the scheme of things.



So lets see how and for how long he can evade answering a simple
question. A question that is central to where he parts company from
mainstream astronomical thought.

**** Do you accept that the sidereal day is less than 24 hours long
( about 23 h 56 m 4.1 s) Please answer either YES or NO ****

Any answer orial36 gives apart from the one word answer yes or no
will
result in a fail grade. The question will then be asked again until
he
does answer the question with a simple YES or NO.

On Nov 26, 3:53*pm, badastrobuster wrote:

FAILED ONCE - I WILL TRY AGAIN

Why are you encouraging the pig-ignorant, gas bag? Do you not suppose
that his total monopoly of a dying forum is enough without this?
Kelleher is a grey cell vampire. He has fed on his acolytes rapt
attention and bled them to dust. Growing stronger and more confident
with every correction the pedants could muster. They have now turned
into mindless zombies who can no longer be reached by rhyme, reason or
common sense. God knows I tried to chide them and then shame them into
desisting. But they are deeply hypnotised and without any will of
their own. They auto-babble the same drivel at Kelleher's merest whim.
Will you willingly add yourself to the number of his countless
victims? He leaves a slimy bloodbath in his wake. He has the morals
of a locust! The conscience of a Republican. No burning sun can reach
him here! He freeze dries minds into bite-sized, takeaway,
refrigerator fodder. Attending his own soulless wake is all that he
now deserves. Be very afraid! You are now amongst the living dead.
Beware of smoke and mirrors! Nothing is as it seems! Except for the
foul stench of the great, heaving piles of blind, brain-frazzled
undead.... 8-|

On Nov 26, 10:00*am, oriel36 wrote:

Fail indeed !,most of you probably never left college and can't think
for yourselves never mind reach the heights of all astronomers in an
unbroken chain

Well, you seem to think that the chain did break, what with Newton -
and, more to the point, Newton not being an astronomer, but Flamsteed
having been the Astronomer Royal - Flamsteed being a faulty link
thereof, leaving those who call themselves astronomers today bereft.

In any case, even if it isn't rotation, but merely an "observational
convenience", you have, as I have shown, acknowledged that the so-
called "sidereal day" is indeed 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds
long, so I suppose you can "gavarit tolko 'Da'" and send him on his
way...

John Savard

On Nov 26, 5:00*pm, oriel36 wrote:

NOW FAILED TWICE - I WILL TRY AGAIN


So lets see how and for how long he can evade answering a simple
question. A question that is central to where he parts company from
mainstream astronomical thought.


**** Do you accept that the sidereal day is less than 24 hours long
( about 23 h 56 m 4.1 s) Please answer either YES or NO ****


Any answer orial36 gives apart from the one word answer yes or no
will result in a fail grade. The question will then be asked again
until
he does answer the question with a simple YES or NO.

On Nov 26, 8:15*pm, badastrobuster wrote:
On Nov 26, 5:00*pm, oriel36 wrote:

NOW FAILED TWICE - I WILL TRY AGAIN

So lets see how and for how long he can evade answering a simple
question. A question that is central to where he parts company from
mainstream astronomical thought.

**** Do you accept that the sidereal day is less than 24 hours long
( about 23 h 56 m 4.1 s) Please answer either YES or NO ****

Any answer orial36 gives apart from the one word answer yes or no
will result in a fail grade. The question will then be asked again
until
he does answer the question with a simple YES or NO.

Each and every post you add has relevance and has done so for the past
decade,it shows an intransigence that the world has to deal with in
correcting a living nightmare where the people charged with the
astronomical heritage believe there are 366 1/4 rotations in 365 1/4
days,forget Newton,Einstein,big bang and whatever was built on the
error,the only thing they will see is that the Feb 29th 24 hour
rotation,which in turn represents a single day/night cycle,represents
365 1/4 rotations in a year .

Talk about telescopes,variable star spotting,have a ball with dark
this and dark that, the inability to act responsibly has already
turned those who could have recognized the problem and dealt with it
effectively instead of being traitors to everything that is good and
decent about astronomy and true human achievement. Because of the
nature of the error,it is something that can't be disguised for too
long hence the move towards a different audience seeing the willful
attempt to ignore a fundamental astronomical correspondence between
the day/night cycle,daily rotation and the 24 hour day and why it
provokes hostility among empiricists.

Keep posting,the readers here imagined they are better than you but
that too is unfounded,a group who can't figure out what Feb 29th
rotation does in terms of a 365 1/4 rotations per year is purely
unintelligent,nothing more and nothing less.

On Nov 26, 8:56*pm, oriel36 wrote:

NOW FAILED THREE TIMES - I WILL TRY AGAIN


So lets see how and for how long he can evade answering a simple
question. A question that is central to where he parts company from
mainstream astronomical thought.


**** Do you accept that the sidereal day is less than 24 hours long
( about 23 h 56 m 4.1 s) Please answer either YES or NO ****


Any answer orial36 gives apart from the one word answer yes or no
will result in a fail grade. The question will then be asked again
until he does answer the question with a simple YES or NO.