Lick Observatory and the Apollo 11 LRRR

There seems to be some question as to whether Lick really did acquire the
Apollo 11 LRRR while the crew was still at Tranquility Base. Anybody got
the straight scoop?

--
|
The universe is not required to conform | Jay Windley
to the expectations of the ignorant. | webmaster @ clavius.org

In message , Jay Windley
writes
There seems to be some question as to whether Lick really did acquire the
Apollo 11 LRRR while the crew was still at Tranquility Base. Anybody got
the straight scoop?

That's the first time I've even seen that claim!
According to the first paper ("Laser Beam Directed at the Lunar
Retro-Reflector Array: Observations of the First Returns", Science 166,
99-102 (October 3)) the first observation was on August 1
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1969Sci...166...99F.
--
Support the DEC Tsunami Appeal http://www.dec.org.uk/.
Remove spam and invalid from address to reply.

"Jonathan Silverlight" wrote
in message news | In message , Jay Windley
| writes
| There seems to be some question as to whether Lick really did acquire the
| Apollo 11 LRRR while the crew was still at Tranquility Base. Anybody got
| the straight scoop?
|
| That's the first time I've even seen that claim!

According to the ALSJ, CAPCOM Bruce McCandless was notified that Lick had
aquired the LRRR shortly after it had been deployed, but was forbidden to
tell the crew lest it distract them.

| According to the first paper ("Laser Beam Directed at the Lunar
| Retro-Reflector Array: Observations of the First Returns", Science 166,
| 99-102 (October 3)) the first observation was on August 1
| http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1969Sci...166...99F.

I'm aware of, but have not yet read, that paper. I'm hoping to find the
sources for the various stories. Thanks for the pointer.

--
|
The universe is not required to conform | Jay Windley
to the expectations of the ignorant. | webmaster @ clavius.org

Jonathan Silverlight wrote:


That's the first time I've even seen that claim!
According to the first paper ("Laser Beam Directed at the Lunar
Retro-Reflector Array: Observations of the First Returns", Science
166, 99-102 (October 3)) the first observation was on August 1
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1969Sci...166...99F.


Can you figure out what's wrong with the idea of lasing it while the
crew were there?
The retroreflector would be in daylight; you'd never be able to sort out
the laser energy from the sunlight, given the low rate of return that
they actually got, would you?

Pat

In article ,
Jay Windley wrote:
According to the ALSJ, CAPCOM Bruce McCandless was notified that Lick had
aquired the LRRR shortly after it had been deployed, but was forbidden to
tell the crew lest it distract them.

Unfortunately, Donald Beattie's "Taking Science to the Moon" disagrees...
and Beattie was program manager for the surface experiments.

They had no immediate detection of the LRRR, and in fact they were worried
that it might have dust on it, because the seismometer package was running
warmer than expected and this was thought to be due to dust thrown up by
the astronauts and by the LM's departure.

Moreover, they could not immediately *find* the LRRR, because the location
of the landing site was not precisely known! Not until flight data and
returned photographs were analyzed was the site located. "We passed our
best estimate to the LRRR PIs, and the LRRR was found on August 1, 1969,
by the Lick Observatory in California."
--
"Think outside the box -- the box isn't our friend." | Henry Spencer
-- George Herbert |

In message , Jay Windley
writes

"Jonathan Silverlight" wrote
in message news | In message , Jay Windley
| writes
| There seems to be some question as to whether Lick really did acquire the
| Apollo 11 LRRR while the crew was still at Tranquility Base. Anybody got
| the straight scoop?
|
| That's the first time I've even seen that claim!

According to the ALSJ, CAPCOM Bruce McCandless was notified that Lick had
aquired the LRRR shortly after it had been deployed, but was forbidden to
tell the crew lest it distract them.

I tried looking there, but couldn't find anything. Where does that
appear?

In message , Pat Flannery
writes


Jonathan Silverlight wrote:


That's the first time I've even seen that claim!
According to the first paper ("Laser Beam Directed at the Lunar
Retro-Reflector Array: Observations of the First Returns", Science
166, 99-102 (October 3)) the first observation was on August 1
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1969Sci...166...99F.


Can you figure out what's wrong with the idea of lasing it while the
crew were there?
The retroreflector would be in daylight; you'd never be able to sort
out the laser energy from the sunlight, given the low rate of return
that they actually got, would you?

But the reflector was also in lunar daylight on August 1 !

Jonathan Silverlight wrote:
In message , Jay Windley
writes

There seems to be some question as to whether Lick really did acquire the
Apollo 11 LRRR while the crew was still at Tranquility Base. Anybody got
the straight scoop?

That's the first time I've even seen that claim!
According to the first paper ("Laser Beam Directed at the Lunar
Retro-Reflector Array: Observations of the First Returns", Science 166,
99-102 (October 3)) the first observation was on August 1
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1969Sci...166...99F.

I can perhaps shed some light on the origin of the rumor.

I specifically recall during the Apollo 11 coverage that at least one network
claimed that the LRRR had been detected. They showed video (presumably from
Lick) of a view of the moon through a telescope with some laser flashing in
the image. I was therefore somewhat surprised to hear later that it took much
longer to be found. I presume that the video image was of the ATTEMPTS to
detect the LRRR and the flashes were due to reflections within the optical
system.

The TV report came some time after midnight CDT, and I'm sure it was after the
astronauts had re-entered the LM. (Otherwise the networks wouldn't have broken
away.) I also beleive that I was watching NBC.

- Bill Frensley

"Jonathan Silverlight" wrote
in message ...
|
| According to the ALSJ, CAPCOM Bruce McCandless was notified that Lick had
| aquired the LRRR shortly after it had been deployed, but was forbidden to
| tell the crew lest it distract them.
|
| I tried looking there, but couldn't find anything. Where does that
| appear?

I'm sorry, I should have given you the reference originally. The annotation
is after the dialogue at GET 111:32:09 and reads, "In Houston, the Flight
Director is informed that scientists at the Lick Observatory in California
have gotten a return from the LR-cubed. Bruce asks if he can tell the crew
this news, but the Flight Director decides not to distract them."

The question is precisely whether the observatory could have located the
LRRR after the off-target landing.

--
|
The universe is not required to conform | Jay Windley
to the expectations of the ignorant. | webmaster @ clavius.org

In article ,
says...

snip

I specifically recall during the Apollo 11 coverage that at least one network
claimed that the LRRR had been detected. They showed video (presumably from
Lick) of a view of the moon through a telescope with some laser flashing in
the image. I was therefore somewhat surprised to hear later that it took much
longer to be found. I presume that the video image was of the ATTEMPTS to
detect the LRRR and the flashes were due to reflections within the optical
system.

The TV report came some time after midnight CDT, and I'm sure it was after the
astronauts had re-entered the LM. (Otherwise the networks wouldn't have broken
away.) I also beleive that I was watching NBC.

I can verify that. In 1989, the A&E Network ran a special on July 20
called "Moonwalk: As It Happened." It was timed such that the first
step occurred exactly at 9:56 pm CDT. It was a high-fidelity copy of
the NBC coverage of the entire moonwalk.

I have that broadcast on tape, and very late in the EVA one of the NBC
commentators states that astronomers at the Lick Observatory have gotten
a return from the laser reflector. I *think* the voice is that of Frank
McGee, but I'm not positive.

--

"The problem isn't that there are so | Doug Van Dorn
many fools; it's that lightning isn't |
distributed right." -Mark Twain