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JFK to Webb - Lacking Justification for Continuing to Fund Apollo



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 28th 13, 03:24 AM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
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Posts: 554
Default JFK to Webb - Lacking Justification for Continuing to Fund Apollo

Back in 2011, the JFK Library declassified and released parts of a private conversation that JFK had with James Webb on September 18, 1963. Here are some quotes...


=========
JFK to Webb: "Do you think the lunar, the manned landing on the moon is a good idea?"

"...this looks like a hell of a lot of dough to go to the moon when you can go - you can learn most of that you want scientifically through instruments and putting a man on the moon really is a stunt and it isn’t worth that many billions."

"Why should we spend that kind of dough to put a man on the moon?"
=========

The transcript is available he
http://www.jfklibrary.org/About-Us/N...-the-Moon.aspx

And the audio is available he
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_tVusN1--Y


What amazes me about that JFK Library press release is that they make no mention of the fact that this conversation happened two days prior to JFK's speech to the UN General Assembly (September 20, 1963) where he announces his proposal to pull a 180 on Project Apollo.

It is clear to me that it is this very conversation where we get a look at JFK's reasoning that he can no longer justify funding Apollo for the purpose of beating the Russians. He tells Webb about the National Security purpose, and that if funding is to be continued then they could justify it as a military program.

But JFK's decision to go ahead two days later and make the grand announcement to the UN that he wanted to pull the rug out from under NASA makes it perfectly clear that he had decided that Apollo was no longer worth the cost.

The biggest thing that changed was that JFK had succeeded in establishing the Space Treaty as his means for curbing the Nuclear Arms Race. Any historian who writes about the Space Race without showing how it was integrally a part of the Cold War Arms Race is simply turning a blind eye. The facts are overwhelming. I'm glad to know that people like Neil deGrasse Tyson have an accurate understanding of why NASA was created.


That JFK Library press release states:
"The recorded meeting is open in full without any redactions."

I find this to be extremely curious because they released about 8 minutes of audio, and this meeting was said to have lasted 46 minutes long. I'd like to know what they did with the other half hour+ of audio!

The man's been dead for half a century, and the Library says that:
"Approximately 30 hours of un-reviewed meeting tapes remain."

Apparently no one has told them that we live in the Information Age. Either that, or they've been working extremely hard to preserve the Camelot myth.. I wish someone with the courage of Bradley Manning and Julian Assange would just post every single minute of those recordings.

I fully understand the need to protect privacy, but after 50 years? Not so much. Especially when these recording have such value to the accurate understanding of vital history where the entire human species was hanging in the balance.

~ CT
  #2  
Old October 28th 13, 05:49 AM posted to sci.space.history
Brad Guth[_3_]
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Posts: 15,175
Default JFK to Webb - Lacking Justification for Continuing to Fund Apollo

On Sunday, October 27, 2013 7:24:37 PM UTC-7, Stuf4 wrote:
Back in 2011, the JFK Library declassified and released parts of a private conversation that JFK had with James Webb on September 18, 1963. Here are some quotes...





=========

JFK to Webb: "Do you think the lunar, the manned landing on the moon is a good idea?"



"...this looks like a hell of a lot of dough to go to the moon when you can go - you can learn most of that you want scientifically through instruments and putting a man on the moon really is a stunt and it isn’t worth that many billions."



"Why should we spend that kind of dough to put a man on the moon?"

=========



The transcript is available he

http://www.jfklibrary.org/About-Us/N...-the-Moon.aspx



And the audio is available he

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_tVusN1--Y





What amazes me about that JFK Library press release is that they make no mention of the fact that this conversation happened two days prior to JFK's speech to the UN General Assembly (September 20, 1963) where he announces his proposal to pull a 180 on Project Apollo.



It is clear to me that it is this very conversation where we get a look at JFK's reasoning that he can no longer justify funding Apollo for the purpose of beating the Russians. He tells Webb about the National Security purpose, and that if funding is to be continued then they could justify it as a military program.



But JFK's decision to go ahead two days later and make the grand announcement to the UN that he wanted to pull the rug out from under NASA makes it perfectly clear that he had decided that Apollo was no longer worth the cost.

  #3  
Old October 30th 13, 07:20 PM posted to sci.space.history
Brad Guth[_3_]
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Posts: 15,175
Default JFK to Webb - Lacking Justification for Continuing to Fund Apollo

JFK's demise was linked to his 180 on ARPA and NASA, as being run almost entirely by those Nazis of Operation Paperclip. Any notions of pulling the plug on those Apollo missions wasn't exactly making any friends in high places, nor with those Nazis that had a really good and profitable deal ongoing (not to mention their protection from ever being accused of those pesky crimes against humanity).


On Sunday, October 27, 2013 7:24:37 PM UTC-7, Stuf4 wrote:
Back in 2011, the JFK Library declassified and released parts of a private conversation that JFK had with James Webb on September 18, 1963. Here are some quotes...





=========

JFK to Webb: "Do you think the lunar, the manned landing on the moon is a good idea?"



"...this looks like a hell of a lot of dough to go to the moon when you can go - you can learn most of that you want scientifically through instruments and putting a man on the moon really is a stunt and it isn’t worth that many billions."



"Why should we spend that kind of dough to put a man on the moon?"

=========



The transcript is available he

http://www.jfklibrary.org/About-Us/N...-the-Moon.aspx



And the audio is available he

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_tVusN1--Y





What amazes me about that JFK Library press release is that they make no mention of the fact that this conversation happened two days prior to JFK's speech to the UN General Assembly (September 20, 1963) where he announces his proposal to pull a 180 on Project Apollo.



It is clear to me that it is this very conversation where we get a look at JFK's reasoning that he can no longer justify funding Apollo for the purpose of beating the Russians. He tells Webb about the National Security purpose, and that if funding is to be continued then they could justify it as a military program.



But JFK's decision to go ahead two days later and make the grand announcement to the UN that he wanted to pull the rug out from under NASA makes it perfectly clear that he had decided that Apollo was no longer worth the cost.

  #4  
Old July 27th 14, 01:11 PM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
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Posts: 554
Default JFK to Webb - Lacking Justification for Continuing to Fund Apollo

Here's an old tape that shows JFK's private thoughts of him at the turning point of where he has decided to make a 180 degree turn regarding his willingness to fund Apollo.

I should have cued up this video to the exact point of the quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_tVusN1--Y&t=2m


=========

JFK to Webb: "Do you think the lunar, the manned landing on the moon is a good idea?"



"...this looks like a hell of a lot of dough to go to the moon when you can go - you can learn most of that you want scientifically through instruments and putting a man on the moon really is a stunt and it isn't worth that many billions."



"Why should we spend that kind of dough to put a man on the moon?"

=========



The transcript is available he

http://www.jfklibrary.org/About-Us/N...-the-Moon.aspx



And the audio is available he

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_tVusN1--Y



He makes it perfectly clear that National Security is the real justification for funding Apollo. Quote:

"...the only way we can defend ourselves is if we put a national security rather than a prestige label on this."

He is asking Webb to give him reasons to change his mind on his new decision, and Webb fails to convince him that Apollo is worth it. Two days after this meeting, JFK makes his historic (now near-forgotten) speech to the UN - JFK makes it clear that he wants to pull funding on Apollo. Long ago here, I've explained his reasons for this 180. In a nutshell, he has already achieved his primary goal that Apollo was intended for of restraining the nuclear arms race and WWIII brinksmanship. He achieved that through his nuke treaty, as he makes clear in his UN speech.

I find this to be extremely curious because they released about 8 minutes of
audio, and this meeting was said to have lasted 46 minutes long. I'd like to
know what they did with the other half hour+ of audio!


It's been well over 3 years since the JFK Library released that excerpt of the meeting. I'm still waiting to hear the rest of that tape! Hopefully the powers that be will choose to declassify it soon. Maybe NdT's recent Cosmos episode on 'The World Set Free' will help turn the tide where the climate will be ripe for the public to learn what JFK's full role in the Space Race actually was. Seriously, it is more than half a century since that meeting took place. I'm reminded of this other famous conversation...

"You want answers?"
"I want the truth!"
"You can't handle the truth!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk&t=40s
....followed by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRdTetA_Dqo

I gotta wonder how close JFK & Webb's conversation at the White House that day came to resembling Tom Cruise & Jack Nicholson's classic courtroom scene!

~ CT





Full post:

On Sunday, October 27, 2013 9:24:37 PM UTC-5, Stuf4 wrote:
Back in 2011, the JFK Library declassified and released parts of a private conversation that JFK had with James Webb on September 18, 1963. Here are some quotes...





=========

JFK to Webb: "Do you think the lunar, the manned landing on the moon is a good idea?"



"...this looks like a hell of a lot of dough to go to the moon when you can go - you can learn most of that you want scientifically through instruments and putting a man on the moon really is a stunt and it isn't worth that many billions."



"Why should we spend that kind of dough to put a man on the moon?"

=========



The transcript is available he

http://www.jfklibrary.org/About-Us/N...-the-Moon.aspx



And the audio is available he

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_tVusN1--Y





What amazes me about that JFK Library press release is that they make no mention of the fact that this conversation happened two days prior to JFK's speech to the UN General Assembly (September 20, 1963) where he announces his proposal to pull a 180 on Project Apollo.



It is clear to me that it is this very conversation where we get a look at JFK's reasoning that he can no longer justify funding Apollo for the purpose of beating the Russians. He tells Webb about the National Security purpose, and that if funding is to be continued then they could justify it as a military program.



But JFK's decision to go ahead two days later and make the grand announcement to the UN that he wanted to pull the rug out from under NASA makes it perfectly clear that he had decided that Apollo was no longer worth the cost.

  #5  
Old July 27th 14, 09:26 PM posted to sci.space.history
Brad Guth[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15,175
Default JFK to Webb - Lacking Justification for Continuing to Fund Apollo

On Sunday, October 27, 2013 7:24:37 PM UTC-7, Stuf4 wrote:
Back in 2011, the JFK Library declassified and released parts of a private conversation that JFK had with James Webb on September 18, 1963. Here are some quotes...





=========

JFK to Webb: "Do you think the lunar, the manned landing on the moon is a good idea?"



"...this looks like a hell of a lot of dough to go to the moon when you can go - you can learn most of that you want scientifically through instruments and putting a man on the moon really is a stunt and it isn't worth that many billions."



"Why should we spend that kind of dough to put a man on the moon?"

=========



The transcript is available he

http://www.jfklibrary.org/About-Us/N...-the-Moon.aspx



And the audio is available he

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_tVusN1--Y





What amazes me about that JFK Library press release is that they make no mention of the fact that this conversation happened two days prior to JFK's speech to the UN General Assembly (September 20, 1963) where he announces his proposal to pull a 180 on Project Apollo.



It is clear to me that it is this very conversation where we get a look at JFK's reasoning that he can no longer justify funding Apollo for the purpose of beating the Russians. He tells Webb about the National Security purpose, and that if funding is to be continued then they could justify it as a military program.



But JFK's decision to go ahead two days later and make the grand announcement to the UN that he wanted to pull the rug out from under NASA makes it perfectly clear that he had decided that Apollo was no longer worth the cost.

  #6  
Old August 30th 14, 10:37 PM posted to sci.space.history
Stuf4
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 554
Default JFK to Webb - Lacking Justification for Continuing to Fund Apollo

From Brad Guth:
On Sunday, October 27, 2013 7:24:37 PM UTC-7, Stuf4 wrote:

Back in 2011, the JFK Library declassified and released parts of a private
conversation that JFK had with James Webb on September 18, 1963. Here are
some quotes...



=========

JFK to Webb: "Do you think the lunar, the manned landing on the moon is a
good idea?"


"...this looks like a hell of a lot of dough to go to the moon when you can
go - you can learn most of that you want scientifically through instruments
and putting a man on the moon really is a stunt and it isn't worth that
many billions."


"Why should we spend that kind of dough to put a man on the moon?"

=========


The transcript is available he

http://www.jfklibrary.org/About-Us/N...-the-Moon.aspx


And the audio is available he

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_tVusN1--Y

What amazes me about that JFK Library press release is that they make no
mention of the fact that this conversation happened two days prior to JFK's
speech to the UN General Assembly (September 20, 1963) where he announces
his proposal to pull a 180 on Project Apollo.


It is clear to me that it is this very conversation where we get a look at
JFK's reasoning that he can no longer justify funding Apollo for the
purpose of beating the Russians. He tells Webb about the National Security
purpose, and that if funding is to be continued then they could justify it
as a military program.


But JFK's decision to go ahead two days later and make the grand
announcement to the UN that he wanted to pull the rug out from under NASA
makes it perfectly clear that he had decided that Apollo was no longer
worth the cost.


The biggest thing that changed was that JFK had succeeded in establishing
the Space Treaty as his means for curbing the Nuclear Arms Race. Any
historian who writes about the Space Race without showing how it was
integrally a part of the Cold War Arms Race is simply turning a blind eye.
The facts are overwhelming. I'm glad to know that people like Neil
deGrasse Tyson have an accurate understanding of why NASA was created.


That JFK Library press release states:

"The recorded meeting is open in full without any redactions."

I find this to be extremely curious because they released about 8 minutes
of audio, and this meeting was said to have lasted 46 minutes long. I'd
like to know what they did with the other half hour+ of audio!

The man's been dead for half a century, and the Library says that:

"Approximately 30 hours of un-reviewed meeting tapes remain."

Apparently no one has told them that we live in the Information Age.
Either that, or they've been working extremely hard to preserve the Camelot
myth. I wish someone with the courage of Bradley Manning and Julian
Assange would just post every single minute of those recordings.

I fully understand the need to protect privacy, but after 50 years? Not so
much. Especially when these recording have such value to the accurate
understanding of vital history where the entire human species was hanging
in the balance.


It's also the prime motivation for having JFK whacked. Pulling the pugs on
ARPA/DARPA and NASA (each being extensively run by Operation Paperclip Nazis)
was obviously a very big no-no.


There are SO many reasons that have been presented as to why JFK was off'd. But who highlights his UN speech about pulling a 180 on Apollo as being a factor (let alone prime reason)? His announcement at the UN was on September 20. He was dead by November 22.

During those weeks in between, it's not hard to imagine the urgency that LBJ had in trying to get JFK to change his mind. "Boss, I think you're making a BIG mistake." Whoever else may have aligned with LBJ toward that effort ...before Plan B was implemented.

And space historians have just steamrolled over this speedbump in the accurate story of how humans walked on the Moon.

~ CT
  #7  
Old September 19th 14, 02:13 PM posted to sci.space.history
Bob Haller
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,197
Default JFK to Webb - Lacking Justification for Continuing to Fund Apollo

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 5:37:01 PM UTC-4, Stuf4 wrote:
From Brad Guth:

On Sunday, October 27, 2013 7:24:37 PM UTC-7, Stuf4 wrote:




Back in 2011, the JFK Library declassified and released parts of a private


conversation that JFK had with James Webb on September 18, 1963. Here are


some quotes...








=========




JFK to Webb: "Do you think the lunar, the manned landing on the moon is a


good idea?"






"...this looks like a hell of a lot of dough to go to the moon when you can


go - you can learn most of that you want scientifically through instruments


and putting a man on the moon really is a stunt and it isn't worth that


many billions."






"Why should we spend that kind of dough to put a man on the moon?"




=========






The transcript is available he




http://www.jfklibrary.org/About-Us/N...-the-Moon.aspx






And the audio is available he




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_tVusN1--Y




What amazes me about that JFK Library press release is that they make no


mention of the fact that this conversation happened two days prior to JFK's


speech to the UN General Assembly (September 20, 1963) where he announces


his proposal to pull a 180 on Project Apollo.






It is clear to me that it is this very conversation where we get a look at


JFK's reasoning that he can no longer justify funding Apollo for the


purpose of beating the Russians. He tells Webb about the National Security


purpose, and that if funding is to be continued then they could justify it


as a military program.






But JFK's decision to go ahead two days later and make the grand


announcement to the UN that he wanted to pull the rug out from under NASA


makes it perfectly clear that he had decided that Apollo was no longer


worth the cost.






The biggest thing that changed was that JFK had succeeded in establishing


the Space Treaty as his means for curbing the Nuclear Arms Race. Any


historian who writes about the Space Race without showing how it was


integrally a part of the Cold War Arms Race is simply turning a blind eye.


The facts are overwhelming. I'm glad to know that people like Neil


deGrasse Tyson have an accurate understanding of why NASA was created..






That JFK Library press release states:




"The recorded meeting is open in full without any redactions."




I find this to be extremely curious because they released about 8 minutes


of audio, and this meeting was said to have lasted 46 minutes long. I'd


like to know what they did with the other half hour+ of audio!




The man's been dead for half a century, and the Library says that:




"Approximately 30 hours of un-reviewed meeting tapes remain."




Apparently no one has told them that we live in the Information Age.


Either that, or they've been working extremely hard to preserve the Camelot


myth. I wish someone with the courage of Bradley Manning and Julian


Assange would just post every single minute of those recordings.




I fully understand the need to protect privacy, but after 50 years? Not so


much. Especially when these recording have such value to the accurate


understanding of vital history where the entire human species was hanging


in the balance.




It's also the prime motivation for having JFK whacked. Pulling the pugs on


ARPA/DARPA and NASA (each being extensively run by Operation Paperclip Nazis)


was obviously a very big no-no.




There are SO many reasons that have been presented as to why JFK was off'd. But who highlights his UN speech about pulling a 180 on Apollo as being a factor (let alone prime reason)? His announcement at the UN was on September 20. He was dead by November 22.



During those weeks in between, it's not hard to imagine the urgency that LBJ had in trying to get JFK to change his mind. "Boss, I think you're making a BIG mistake." Whoever else may have aligned with LBJ toward that effort ...before Plan B was implemented.



And space historians have just steamrolled over this speedbump in the accurate story of how humans walked on the Moon.



~ CT


if LBJ hadnt screwed up the vietnam war making himself unelectable apollo might still be in use today.....
  #8  
Old September 21st 14, 07:48 PM posted to sci.space.history
Greg \(Strider\) Moore
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Posts: 752
Default JFK to Webb - Lacking Justification for Continuing to Fund Apollo

"bob haller" wrote in message
...


if LBJ hadnt screwed up the vietnam war making himself unelectable apollo
might still be in use today.....



Well, if that's true (and it's not) at least something good came out of LBJ
screwing up Vietnam (as you claim).


--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/
CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net

  #9  
Old September 21st 14, 09:18 PM posted to sci.space.history
Bob Haller
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,197
Default JFK to Webb - Lacking Justification for Continuing to Fund Apollo

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 2:48:08 PM UTC-4, Greg (Strider) Moore wrote:
"bob haller" wrote in message

...





if LBJ hadnt screwed up the vietnam war making himself unelectable apollo


might still be in use today.....






Well, if that's true (and it's not) at least something good came out of LBJ

screwing up Vietnam (as you claim).




--

Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/

CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net


LBJ mired our country in a unwinnable war that cost so many lives went on far too long and we ultimately lost.....

The war sucked up lots of bucks that could of kept the apollo saturn production contiuning...



 




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