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Science out the window when it comes to political issues like "gun control" and Global Warming!



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 30th 07, 09:48 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
Lloyd[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 100
Default Science out the window when it comes to political issues like "gun control" and Global Warming!

On Jul 30, 3:00 pm, Benj wrote:
Anyone notice the MONSTER thread on Gobal Warming? It's actually too
huge to read on Google!

What is clear that Global Warming like "gun control" is a political
agenda where lies abound and ethical science goes out the window.

We find paid minions of the "desired" view infesting the Usenet and
using clever wording and lies to further their agenda.

The Global warming thing is a great example.

They say global warming is real (it is!)
Then try to make the case that some politicians (Bush) have tried to
deny global warming. (He has in the past)
Then comes the huge "leap of faith" where CO2 is accused by reason of
a "greenhouse effect" to be the "cause" of global warming.


Yeah, like that leap of faith that germs cause disease. That leap of
faith that evolution is real.

Then comes "proof" in the form of CO2 level charts that match global
ocean temperatures. (This "causality" is a lie.)


OK, you're an idiot. Happy?

Bottom line we all must accept global warming as due to our SUVs and
power plants or these guys will call us nasty names!

Brrrrr! I'm shaking in my boots!

This is all identical to the "gun control" debate where firearm
ownership is tied by the propagandists to higher crime rates.


It's nothing like that.

Too bad
all scientific studies including the ones mandated by Congress and
done by the CDC found NO such connections.


You are lying.

So what am I getting at here? These issues are NOT what I'm talking
about. I"m not trying to forward a political agenda here, save ONE:
To take the POLITICS out of Science!


Idiocy piled higher and deeper.

Science, it seems has developed a certain amount of well-deserved
credibility in the public perception. So it isn't surprising that
those with a political agenda would try to USE that public credibility
to further their political agendas. What I'm saying here is that we
scientists, need to stand up and speak out. No, not take sides in the
debate lies. And certainly not to join all the noise of name-calling
and "proofs by assertion" that characterize political "debates".

No! We need to squawk loud and often about this SUBVERSION of the
integrity of Science by political agendas.


Yes, we (we scientists) are. You denialists are trying to subvert
science.

When lies are all over the
media being held up as "science" someone needs to point it out and
when prizes are given for bogus research they need to be taken back
and the schools embarrassed! In short all this MISUSE of OUR science
for political purpose needs to stop and it's only going to stop if WE
start speaking out instead of going along with those pretending there
is a "scientific" debate where there actually is none!


"A dwindling group ... a small minority which is seeking to
deliberately confuse the public on the causes of climate change. They
are often misrepresenting the science, when the reality is that the
evidence is getting stronger every day" -- Royal Society

  #12  
Old July 30th 07, 09:59 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
Einar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,219
Default Science out the window when it comes to political issues like "gun control" and Global Warming!


Benj wrote:

No! We need to squawk loud and often about this SUBVERSION of the
integrity of Science by political agendas. When lies are all over the
media being held up as "science" someone needs to point it out and
when prizes are given for bogus research they need to be taken back
and the schools embarrassed! In short all this MISUSE of OUR science
for political purpose needs to stop and it's only going to stop if WE
start speaking out instead of going along with those pretending there
is a "scientific" debate where there actually is none!


Benji appears to live in a fantacy world, where nothing but the Sun
can cause a warming effect here on Earth. In a fantacy Solar System,
where he sees signs of Global Warming happening on the other planets,
completelly a figment of his imaginations.

Now, I´m not really interested what other bits of fantacy he has to
offer.

Einar

  #13  
Old July 30th 07, 10:21 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
Joe Strout
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 972
Default Science out the window when it comes to political issues like "gun control" and Global Warming!

In article . com,
Benj wrote:

They say global warming is real (it is!)
Then try to make the case that some politicians (Bush) have tried to
deny global warming. (He has in the past)
Then comes the huge "leap of faith" where CO2 is accused by reason of
a "greenhouse effect" to be the "cause" of global warming.


That's not a leap of faith, that's the scientific consensus resulting
from decades of detailed, careful climate modeling by real climate
scientists, before the whole thing became politicized and unscientific
loons like yourself started trying to get involved.

If you stick to serious scientific journals, like Science (which I've
read on a weekly basis since college), it's clear that there has never
been any serious controversy about whether the current warming is
anthropogenic, nor the extent to which CO2 and other gasses are to blame
(and yes, there are others, but that's the main one). There has been
only the ordinary haggling over the details.

This is much like another case where unscientific loons with a political
axe to grind are trying to interfere with the scientific process:
evolution. Biologists all know evolution is real, just as
climatologists all know that anthropogenic global warming is real. But
religious fundies try to spread uncertainty and doubt by digging up
"experts" who support their views, as long as you don't look too closely
at their arguments or credentials; and by blowing ordinary scientific
discourse out of proportion to make the case that the scientists haven't
any idea what's going on.

This is by now very much old hat to anybody who follows such things;
these are the standard tricks which people use to obstruct the
dissemination of scientific understanding. It's often effective, too --
look how many people still ascribe to creationism (or some modern label
thereof such as "intelligent design"), and periodically get schoolboards
to interfere with the teaching of evolution, one of the central pillars
of biology.

It's a bit sad that the U.S. seems particularly susceptible to such
shenanigans; most other countries are far more rational in this respect.
I attribute this to the combination of poor science education, and an
abnormally high level of religious fervor. Frankly, we'd be much better
off with more science and less religion, since science leads to truth,
while religion leads to dogma (often, *conflicting* dogma, which leads
to wars and other such unpleasantness) and poor decisions.

Science, it seems has developed a certain amount of well-deserved
credibility in the public perception.


But not enough, apparently, since politicians and religious leaders can
still spread uncertainty and doubt regarding firm scientific conclusions
-- just as you're doing now.

No! We need to squawk loud and often about this SUBVERSION of the
integrity of Science by political agendas. When lies are all over the
media being held up as "science" someone needs to point it out and
when prizes are given for bogus research they need to be taken back
and the schools embarrassed! In short all this MISUSE of OUR science
for political purpose needs to stop and it's only going to stop if WE
start speaking out instead of going along with those pretending there
is a "scientific" debate where there actually is none!


Oddly enough, I agree with all this. It just seems to be the exact
opposite of what you were doing a few paragraphs ago.

--
"Polywell" fusion -- an approach to nuclear fusion that might actually work.
Learn more and discuss via: http://www.strout.net/info/science/polywell/
  #14  
Old July 30th 07, 10:33 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 50
Default Science out the window when it comes to political issues like "gun control" and Global Warming!

On Jul 30, 2:21 pm, Joe Strout wrote:
In article . com,

Benj wrote:
They say global warming is real (it is!)
Then try to make the case that some politicians (Bush) have tried to
deny global warming. (He has in the past)
Then comes the huge "leap of faith" where CO2 is accused by reason of
a "greenhouse effect" to be the "cause" of global warming.


That's not a leap of faith, that's the scientific consensus resulting
from decades of detailed, careful climate modeling by real climate
scientists, before the whole thing became politicized and unscientific
loons like yourself started trying to get involved.





If you stick to serious scientific journals, like Science (which I've
read on a weekly basis since college), it's clear that there has never
been any serious controversy about whether the current warming is
anthropogenic, nor the extent to which CO2 and other gasses are to blame
(and yes, there are others, but that's the main one).


No such theory exists. All we have are vague, untestable notions.

If you believe otherwise then why don't you show us. Go ahead. What
are you waiting for, a hand engraved invitation. Show us. Put us in
our place. Go ahead.


There has been
only the ordinary haggling over the details.

This is much like another case where unscientific loons with a political
axe to grind are trying to interfere with the scientific process:
evolution.


Really. I'm an expert in evolutionary theory.

Biologists all know evolution is real, just as
climatologists all know that anthropogenic global warming is real.


Bull****. AGW is 100% propaganda, 0% science.

But
religious fundies try to spread uncertainty and doubt by digging up
"experts" who support their views, as long as you don't look too closely
at their arguments or credentials; and by blowing ordinary scientific
discourse out of proportion to make the case that the scientists haven't
any idea what's going on.


Surely you don't expect us to take your word on all of this. Or do
you?


This is by now very much old hat to anybody who follows such things;
these are the standard tricks which people use to obstruct the
dissemination of scientific understanding.


Nobody stopping you from posting whatever you wish.

It's often effective, too --
look how many people still ascribe to creationism (or some modern label
thereof such as "intelligent design"), and periodically get schoolboards
to interfere with the teaching of evolution, one of the central pillars
of biology.

It's a bit sad that the U.S. seems particularly susceptible to such
shenanigans; most other countries are far more rational in this respect.
I attribute this to the combination of poor science education, and an
abnormally high level of religious fervor. Frankly, we'd be much better
off with more science and less religion, since science leads to truth,
while religion leads to dogma (often, *conflicting* dogma, which leads
to wars and other such unpleasantness) and poor decisions.

Science, it seems has developed a certain amount of well-deserved
credibility in the public perception.


But not enough, apparently, since politicians and religious leaders can
still spread uncertainty and doubt regarding firm scientific conclusions
-- just as you're doing now.


AGW theory is nothing but vague, untestable rhetoric. It exist only
in the fervent imagination of numerous whackos like yourself. (You
are demostrating as much right here.)


No! We need to squawk loud and often about this SUBVERSION of the
integrity of Science by political agendas. When lies are all over the
media being held up as "science" someone needs to point it out and
when prizes are given for bogus research they need to be taken back
and the schools embarrassed! In short all this MISUSE of OUR science
for political purpose needs to stop and it's only going to stop if WE
start speaking out instead of going along with those pretending there
is a "scientific" debate where there actually is none!


Oddly enough, I agree with all this. It just seems to be the exact
opposite of what you were doing a few paragraphs ago.


That's because your own thinking is so ephemeral you don't know what
you think from one moment to the next.

  #15  
Old July 30th 07, 10:46 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
Einar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,219
Default Science out the window when it comes to political issues like "gun control" and Global Warming!


wrote:
On Jul 30, 2:21 pm, Joe Strout wrote:
In article . com,

Benj wrote:
They say global warming is real (it is!)
Then try to make the case that some politicians (Bush) have tried to
deny global warming. (He has in the past)
Then comes the huge "leap of faith" where CO2 is accused by reason of
a "greenhouse effect" to be the "cause" of global warming.


That's not a leap of faith, that's the scientific consensus resulting
from decades of detailed, careful climate modeling by real climate
scientists, before the whole thing became politicized and unscientific
loons like yourself started trying to get involved.





If you stick to serious scientific journals, like Science (which I've
read on a weekly basis since college), it's clear that there has never
been any serious controversy about whether the current warming is
anthropogenic, nor the extent to which CO2 and other gasses are to blame
(and yes, there are others, but that's the main one).


No such theory exists. All we have are vague, untestable notions.

If you believe otherwise then why don't you show us. Go ahead. What
are you waiting for, a hand engraved invitation. Show us. Put us in
our place. Go ahead.


There has been
only the ordinary haggling over the details.

This is much like another case where unscientific loons with a political
axe to grind are trying to interfere with the scientific process:
evolution.


Really. I'm an expert in evolutionary theory.

Biologists all know evolution is real, just as
climatologists all know that anthropogenic global warming is real.


Bull****. AGW is 100% propaganda, 0% science.

But
religious fundies try to spread uncertainty and doubt by digging up
"experts" who support their views, as long as you don't look too closely
at their arguments or credentials; and by blowing ordinary scientific
discourse out of proportion to make the case that the scientists haven't
any idea what's going on.


Surely you don't expect us to take your word on all of this. Or do
you?


This is by now very much old hat to anybody who follows such things;
these are the standard tricks which people use to obstruct the
dissemination of scientific understanding.


Nobody stopping you from posting whatever you wish.

It's often effective, too --
look how many people still ascribe to creationism (or some modern label
thereof such as "intelligent design"), and periodically get schoolboards
to interfere with the teaching of evolution, one of the central pillars
of biology.

It's a bit sad that the U.S. seems particularly susceptible to such
shenanigans; most other countries are far more rational in this respect.
I attribute this to the combination of poor science education, and an
abnormally high level of religious fervor. Frankly, we'd be much better
off with more science and less religion, since science leads to truth,
while religion leads to dogma (often, *conflicting* dogma, which leads
to wars and other such unpleasantness) and poor decisions.

Science, it seems has developed a certain amount of well-deserved
credibility in the public perception.


But not enough, apparently, since politicians and religious leaders can
still spread uncertainty and doubt regarding firm scientific conclusions
-- just as you're doing now.


AGW theory is nothing but vague, untestable rhetoric. It exist only
in the fervent imagination of numerous whackos like yourself. (You
are demostrating as much right here.)


No! We need to squawk loud and often about this SUBVERSION of the
integrity of Science by political agendas. When lies are all over the
media being held up as "science" someone needs to point it out and
when prizes are given for bogus research they need to be taken back
and the schools embarrassed! In short all this MISUSE of OUR science
for political purpose needs to stop and it's only going to stop if WE
start speaking out instead of going along with those pretending there
is a "scientific" debate where there actually is none!


Oddly enough, I agree with all this. It just seems to be the exact
opposite of what you were doing a few paragraphs ago.


That's because your own thinking is so ephemeral you don't know what
you think from one moment to the next.


Expert on evolutionary theory. Extrapolate a bit on that. Even though
it´s not on topic, does that mean you agree with scientists that
evolution is real and that you accept the currently given scientific
age for the planet?

Einar

  #16  
Old July 30th 07, 11:35 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,346
Default Science out the window when it comes to political issues like "gun control" and Global Warming!

In sci.physics Server 13 wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 30, 12:37 pm, "Server 13" wrote:
wrote in message

...





In sci.physics Server 13 wrote:

"Benj" wrote in message
roups.com...

Anyone notice the MONSTER thread on Gobal Warming? It's actually too
huge to read on Google!

What is clear that Global Warming like "gun control" is a political
agenda where lies abound and ethical science goes out the window.

We find paid minions of the "desired" view infesting the Usenet and
using clever wording and lies to further their agenda.

The Global warming thing is a great example.

They say global warming is real (it is!)
Then try to make the case that some politicians (Bush) have tried to
deny global warming. (He has in the past)
Then comes the huge "leap of faith" where CO2 is accused by reason
of
a "greenhouse effect" to be the "cause" of global warming.
Then comes "proof" in the form of CO2 level charts that match global
ocean temperatures. (This "causality" is a lie.)

Um, the rest of the world disagrees.

If that were actually true, the above post would have never been made.

OK, the rest of the world -5% Denialists.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Science isn't a democracy.


lol Quoting the same ten or so denialists over and over isn't science.


Neither is statements like "the rest of the world disagrees".


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
  #17  
Old July 30th 07, 11:39 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
neoconis_ignoramus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Science out the window when it comes to political issues like "gun control" and Global Warming!

On Jul 30, 1:10 pm, "Server 13" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...





On Jul 30, 12:00 pm, Benj wrote:


Then comes the huge "leap of faith" where CO2 is accused by reason of
a "greenhouse effect" to be the "cause" of global warming.
Then comes "proof" in the form of CO2 level charts that match global
ocean temperatures. (This "causality" is a lie.)


snip


when prizes are given for bogus research they need to be taken back
and the schools embarrassed! In short all this MISUSE of OUR science
for political purpose needs to stop and it's only going to stop if WE
start speaking out instead of going along with those pretending there
is a "scientific" debate where there actually is none!


Well stated.


I agree with the other poster. We need scientists like yourself to
get into the fray.


I've also noticed that it is both unproductive and unnecessary to try
to dispute or refute any of the assertions made by these AGW whackos.
Their thinking is too vague. Attempts to dispute it only confuse the
audience and leave them with the impression that, maybe, there is
something to this hoax.


Actually, serious efforts to dispute AGW science are rarely made here.
Generally it's quotes from the same few bought and paid for liars, or
amateur science word salads.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


LOL, "word salads". I could not think of a more apt description.

  #18  
Old July 30th 07, 11:42 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default Science out the window when it comes to political issues like "gun control" and Global Warming!

On Jul 30, 3:09 pm, "Server 13" wrote:

They say global warming is real (it is!)
Then try to make the case that some politicians (Bush) have tried to
deny global warming. (He has in the past)
Then comes the huge "leap of faith" where CO2 is accused by reason
of
a "greenhouse effect" to be the "cause" of global warming.
Then comes "proof" in the form of CO2 level charts that match global
ocean temperatures. (This "causality" is a lie.)


Um, the rest of the world disagrees.


If that were actually true, the above post would have never been made.


OK, the rest of the world -5% Denialists.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Science isn't a democracy.


lol Quoting the same ten or so denialists over and over isn't science.- Hide quoted text -

Stating that same old lame ass propaganda line that " all scientists"
BELIEVE in this fable is not science either.

Give us directly here the scientific poll of either climate scientists
or scientists in general. Or admit that, like usual, you are talking
out of your ass, making unsupported statements and are delusional in
even this fact in which you believe.

At some point you twits just may find out that it can be incredibly
dangerous to believe your own lies.

There are plenty of scientists and many more that do not believe in
this non-scientifically derived conclusion. They just do not go around
stating bald face lies like this in promotion of their propaganda.

KDeatherage

  #19  
Old July 30th 07, 11:55 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 50
Default Science out the window when it comes to political issues like "gun control" and Global Warming!

On Jul 30, 2:46 pm, Einar wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 30, 2:21 pm, Joe Strout wrote:
In article . com,


Benj wrote:
They say global warming is real (it is!)
Then try to make the case that some politicians (Bush) have tried to
deny global warming. (He has in the past)
Then comes the huge "leap of faith" where CO2 is accused by reason of
a "greenhouse effect" to be the "cause" of global warming.


That's not a leap of faith, that's the scientific consensus resulting
from decades of detailed, careful climate modeling by real climate
scientists, before the whole thing became politicized and unscientific
loons like yourself started trying to get involved.


If you stick to serious scientific journals, like Science (which I've
read on a weekly basis since college), it's clear that there has never
been any serious controversy about whether the current warming is
anthropogenic, nor the extent to which CO2 and other gasses are to blame
(and yes, there are others, but that's the main one).


No such theory exists. All we have are vague, untestable notions.


If you believe otherwise then why don't you show us. Go ahead. What
are you waiting for, a hand engraved invitation. Show us. Put us in
our place. Go ahead.


There has been
only the ordinary haggling over the details.


This is much like another case where unscientific loons with a political
axe to grind are trying to interfere with the scientific process:
evolution.


Really. I'm an expert in evolutionary theory.


Biologists all know evolution is real, just as
climatologists all know that anthropogenic global warming is real.


Bull****. AGW is 100% propaganda, 0% science.


But
religious fundies try to spread uncertainty and doubt by digging up
"experts" who support their views, as long as you don't look too closely
at their arguments or credentials; and by blowing ordinary scientific
discourse out of proportion to make the case that the scientists haven't
any idea what's going on.


Surely you don't expect us to take your word on all of this. Or do
you?


This is by now very much old hat to anybody who follows such things;
these are the standard tricks which people use to obstruct the
dissemination of scientific understanding.


Nobody stopping you from posting whatever you wish.


It's often effective, too --
look how many people still ascribe to creationism (or some modern label
thereof such as "intelligent design"), and periodically get schoolboards
to interfere with the teaching of evolution, one of the central pillars
of biology.


It's a bit sad that the U.S. seems particularly susceptible to such
shenanigans; most other countries are far more rational in this respect.
I attribute this to the combination of poor science education, and an
abnormally high level of religious fervor. Frankly, we'd be much better
off with more science and less religion, since science leads to truth,
while religion leads to dogma (often, *conflicting* dogma, which leads
to wars and other such unpleasantness) and poor decisions.


Science, it seems has developed a certain amount of well-deserved
credibility in the public perception.


But not enough, apparently, since politicians and religious leaders can
still spread uncertainty and doubt regarding firm scientific conclusions
-- just as you're doing now.


AGW theory is nothing but vague, untestable rhetoric. It exist only
in the fervent imagination of numerous whackos like yourself. (You
are demostrating as much right here.)


No! We need to squawk loud and often about this SUBVERSION of the
integrity of Science by political agendas. When lies are all over the
media being held up as "science" someone needs to point it out and
when prizes are given for bogus research they need to be taken back
and the schools embarrassed! In short all this MISUSE of OUR science
for political purpose needs to stop and it's only going to stop if WE
start speaking out instead of going along with those pretending there
is a "scientific" debate where there actually is none!


Oddly enough, I agree with all this. It just seems to be the exact
opposite of what you were doing a few paragraphs ago.


That's because your own thinking is so ephemeral you don't know what
you think from one moment to the next.


Expert on evolutionary theory. Extrapolate a bit on that.


Google Groups.

Even though
it´s not on topic, does that mean you agree with scientists that
evolution is real


Of course.

and that you accept the currently given scientific
age for the planet?


Specifically?


Einar- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



  #20  
Old July 30th 07, 11:56 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.environment,sci.physics,alt.global-warming,alt.politics
Joe Strout
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 972
Default Science out the window when it comes to political issues like "gun control" and Global Warming!

In article .com,
wrote:

If you stick to serious scientific journals, like Science (which I've
read on a weekly basis since college), it's clear that there has never
been any serious controversy about whether the current warming is
anthropogenic, nor the extent to which CO2 and other gasses are to blame
(and yes, there are others, but that's the main one).


No such theory exists. All we have are vague, untestable notions.


Nonsense. We're talking about detailed climate models here; nothing
vague or untestable about them.

If you believe otherwise then why don't you show us. Go ahead. What
are you waiting for, a hand engraved invitation. Show us. Put us in
our place. Go ahead.


Okey dokey, but I only have 5 minutes before I need to leave for the
day. Let's see what a mere 5 minutes or less of Googling turns up
(should be faster than rifling through recent issues of Science, though
not as effective -- I invite you to visit a "library" and try the latter
for yourself)...

http://www.ocean-sci.net/1/45/2005/os-1-45-2005.html
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/200...GL025579.shtml
http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/...ts/060405.html

OK, that only took about one minute, but it shows you (or at least,
shows those willing to see), as requested. And you're not worth any
more of my time than that.

I don't expect you to be convinced, because you are a AGW-denying loon
with a political axe to grind, and you'll reject any-sized mountain of
evidence if it conflicts with your politically motivated agenda. But
you asked, so there it is. No please go away, and take your
anti-science babbling elsewhere.

--
"Polywell" fusion -- an approach to nuclear fusion that might actually work.
Learn more and discuss via: http://www.strout.net/info/science/polywell/
 




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