Manned Soviet Space Flight that wasn't (Was Article on Pravda)

"James Gifford" wrote in message
. 3.44...
Six-eight years ago, I corresponded with several different people
who
were in very good positions to render an opinion, none with any real
axe
to grind. Not only did they dismiss Heinlein's claims as I presented
them, not one professed to have ever heard of a grossly overstated
population for Russia or the Soviet Union ca. 1960. As much as I'd
like
to believe Heinlein found a hidden truth or was mistaken for a
simple and
obvious reason, I can't find any answer except that he was off the
deep
end with this one.

If anyone's ever found a reasonably authoritative claim - someone
who
spoke or wrote on the record, and with reasonable data to back it
up - or
a data set that indicates Heinlein's claim had truth in it, I would
love
to have the information.


Jim, this brings to my mind the comments he made (I think) in the same
article, or perhaps it was in _Inside Intourist_ about a manned space
flight that later became an unmanned flight. I think also that
Virginia Heinlein said something on this group once to the effect that
Jim Oberg had evidence that agreed. Based on what I've read from Jim
O's books and his presence in sci.space.history, this is pretty much
not the case. However, I've always wondered what VH knew or claimed to
know that led her to such confidence. Does anyone have any more info
on this particular story?

Thanks,
Jim

"James Nowotarski" wrote:
Jim, this brings to my mind the comments he made (I think) in the same
article, or perhaps it was in _Inside Intourist_ about a manned space
flight that later became an unmanned flight. I think also that
Virginia Heinlein said something on this group once to the effect that
Jim Oberg had evidence that agreed. Based on what I've read from Jim
O's books and his presence in sci.space.history, this is pretty much
not the case. However, I've always wondered what VH knew or claimed to
know that led her to such confidence. Does anyone have any more info
on this particular story?

There were a lot of claims of pre-Gagarin astronauts, but even after the
wall came down and the ex-Soviets were more forthcoming, the stories
didn't hold up. There were two brothers in... Italy? who claimed to have
heard all kinds of horrible accidents on their ham gear, but they've been
pretty thoroughly discredited.

The clincher, really, is that Gagarin's flight was announced in advance
and discussed on national radio and clear military radio in realtime at
launch and throughout. If the wily Russkies were only going to announce
once they were successful, they took an awful risk announcing Vostok 1
after Vostoks -6 through 0 came to such horrible ends.

But the rumors were rife and often believable for a long time. I can see
the Heinleins being misled by such along with a lot of people.

--
|=- James Gifford = FIX SPAMTRAP TO REPLY -=|
|=- So... your philosophy fits in a sig, does it? -=|

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 23:51:59 GMT, "James Nowotarski"
wrote:


"James Gifford" wrote in message
.3.44...
Six-eight years ago, I corresponded with several different people
who
were in very good positions to render an opinion, none with any real
axe
to grind. Not only did they dismiss Heinlein's claims as I presented
them, not one professed to have ever heard of a grossly overstated
population for Russia or the Soviet Union ca. 1960. As much as I'd
like
to believe Heinlein found a hidden truth or was mistaken for a
simple and
obvious reason, I can't find any answer except that he was off the
deep
end with this one.

If anyone's ever found a reasonably authoritative claim - someone
who
spoke or wrote on the record, and with reasonable data to back it
up - or
a data set that indicates Heinlein's claim had truth in it, I would
love
to have the information.


Jim, this brings to my mind the comments he made (I think) in the same
article, or perhaps it was in _Inside Intourist_ about a manned space
flight that later became an unmanned flight. I think also that
Virginia Heinlein said something on this group once to the effect that
Jim Oberg had evidence that agreed. Based on what I've read from Jim
O's books and his presence in sci.space.history, this is pretty much
not the case. However, I've always wondered what VH knew or claimed to
know that led her to such confidence. Does anyone have any more info
on this particular story?

Thanks,
Jim

Your memory is a little off. James Oberg has presented evidence that
it never was really manned, and that Viriginia Heinlein might have
misunderstood the incident, since while she spoke fluent Russian it
was a second language for her. She did post here that she was still
convinced that it was a manned launch. At least, I'm pretty sure I
remember her posting that, but a Google Groups search did not turn up
anything.

I am not convinced either way at this point.

I asked this a few years back, in the thread Pravda Means Truth
article, Russian cosmonaut.

James Gifford wrote:

The clincher, really, is that Gagarin's flight was announced in advance

There were a lot of rumors of the upcoming launch in the weeks leading
up to it (including the one that had Vladimir Ilyushin flying the Vostok
on April 7th, 1961 and being injured on his return*) but the first
official announcement of the flight by the Soviet Union occurred while
it was underway


and discussed on national radio and clear military radio in realtime at
launch and throughout. If the wily Russkies were only going to announce
once they were successful, they took an awful risk announcing Vostok 1
after Vostoks -6 through 0 came to such horrible ends.


?
Here's a breakdown of the pre-Vostok tests flights and what happened to
each of them from Mark Wade's Encyclopedia Astronautica:
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/vostok.htm

15 May 1960 Korabl-Sputnik 1 Program: Vostok
http://www.astronautix.com/project/vostok.htm. Launch Site: Baikonur
http://www.astronautix.com/sites/baikonur.htm . Launch Vehicle: Vostok
8K72 http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/vosk8k72.htm. Mass: 2,500 kg.
Perigee: 284 km. Apogee: 514 km. Inclination: 65.0 deg. Duration:
1,979.00 days.
The Soviet Union launched a Vostok 1KP prototype manned spacecraft
(without heat shield; not recoverable) into near-earth orbit. Called
Sputnik IV by the Western press. On May 19, at 15:52 Moscow time, the
spacecraft was commanded to retrofire. However the guidance system had
oriented the spacecraft incorrectly and the TDU engine instead put the
spacecraft into a higher orbit. Soviet scientists said that conditions
in the cabin, which had separated from the remainder of the spacecraft,
were normal.
Officially: Development and checking of the main systems of the space
ship satellite, which ensure its safe flight and control in flight,
return to Earth and conditions needed for a man in flight.

28 July 1960 Korabl-Sputnik Program: Vostok
http://www.astronautix.com/project/vostok.htm. Launch Site: Baikonur
http://www.astronautix.com/sites/baikonur.htm . Launch Vehicle: Vostok
8K72 http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/vosk8k72.htm. FAILU At ignition
one of the combustion chambers in strapon Block B or G burned through.
The strapon separated from the core at 17 seconds into the flight and
the launch vehicle exploded at 28.5 seconds.
First attempted flight of the Vostok 1K manned spacecraft prototype.
Dogs Chaika and Lisichka perished in the explosion of the rocket.

19 August 1960 Korabl-Sputnik 2 Program: Vostok
http://www.astronautix.com/project/vostok.htm. Launch Site: Baikonur
http://www.astronautix.com/sites/baikonur.htm . Launch Vehicle: Vostok
8K72 http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/vosk8k72.htm. Mass: 1,440 kg.
Perigee: 281 km. Apogee: 340 km. Inclination: 64.6 deg. Duration: 1.09 days.
The Soviet Union launched its second unmanned test of the Vostok
spacecraft, the Korabl Sputnik II, or Sputnik V. The spacecraft carried
two dogs, Strelka and Belka, in addition to a gray rabbit, rats, mice,
flies, plants, fungi, microscopic water plants, and seeds. Electrodes
attached to the dogs and linked with the spacecraft communications
system, which included a television camera, enabled Soviet scientists to
check the animals' hearts, blood pressure, breathing, and actions during
the trip. After the spacecraft reentered and landed safely the next day,
the animals and biological specimens were reported to be in good condition.
Officially: Development of systems ensuring man's life functions and
safety in flight and his return to Earth.

01 December 1960 Korabl-Sputnik 3 Program: Vostok
http://www.astronautix.com/project/vostok.htm. Launch Site: Baikonur
http://www.astronautix.com/sites/baikonur.htm . Launch Vehicle: Vostok
8K72 http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/vosk8k72.htm. Mass: 4,563 kg.
Perigee: 123 km. Apogee: 269 km. Inclination: 65.0 deg. Duration: 0.99 days.
The Soviet Union launched its third spaceship satellite, Korabl Sputnik
III, or Sputnik VI. The spacecraft, similar to those launched on May 15
and August 19, carried the dogs Pcheka and Mushka in addition to other
animals, insects, and plants. Deorbited December 2, 1960 7:15 GMT.
Burned up on reentry due to steep entry angle (retrofire engine did not
shut off on schedule and burned to fuel depletion).
Officially: Medical and biological research under space flight conditions.

22 December 1960 Korabl-Sputnik Program: Vostok
http://www.astronautix.com/project/vostok.htm. Launch Site: Baikonur
http://www.astronautix.com/sites/baikonur.htm . Launch Vehicle: Vostok
8K72K http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/vos8k72k.htm. FAILU The third
stage engine RO-7 failed just after ignition, 425 seconds in to flight.
Unable to reach orbital velocity, the Vostok prototype separated while
the third stage was still firing. While the ejection seat failed to
operate, the capsule did make a hard landing in severe winter conditions
in Siberia. It was recovered after some time, and the dogs Kometa and
Shutka were alive. As a result of this flight the ejection seat was
developed with a heat shield designed to protect the pilot in the event
of a launch vehicle failure up to shut down of the first stage.
Additional Details: Korabl-Sputnik (5153)
http://www.astronautix.com/details/kork5153.htm.

09 March 1961 Korabl-Sputnik 4 Program: Vostok
http://www.astronautix.com/project/vostok.htm. Manned flight: Vostok 1
http://www.astronautix.com/flights/vostok1.htm. Launch Site: Baikonur
http://www.astronautix.com/sites/baikonur.htm . Launch Vehicle: Vostok
8K72K http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/vos8k72k.htm. Mass: 4,700 kg.
Perigee: 173 km. Apogee: 239 km. Inclination: 64.9 deg. Duration: 0.070
days.
Carried dog Chernushka, mannequin Ivan Ivanovich, and other biological
specimens. Ivanovich was ejected from the capsule and recovered by
parachute, and Chernsuhka was successfully recovered with the capsule on
March 9, 1961 8:10 GMT.
Officially: Development of the design of the space ship satellite and of
the systems on board, which ensure necessary conditions for man's
flight. Additional Details: Korabl-Sputnik 4 (79)
http://www.astronautix.com/details/korik479.htm.

25 March 1961 Korabl-Sputnik 5 Program: Vostok
http://www.astronautix.com/project/vostok.htm. Manned flight: Vostok 1
http://www.astronautix.com/flights/vostok1.htm. Launch Site: Baikonur
http://www.astronautix.com/sites/baikonur.htm . Launch Vehicle: Vostok
8K72K http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/vos8k72k.htm. Mass: 4,695 kg.
Perigee: 175 km. Apogee: 175 km. Inclination: 64.9 deg. Duration: 0.060
days.
Carried dog Zvezdochka and mannequin Ivan Ivanovich. Ivanovich was again
ejected from the capsule and recovered by parachute, and Zvezdochka was
successfully recovered with the capsule on March 25, 1961 7:40 GMT.
Officially: Development of the design of the space ship satellite and of
the systems on board, designed to ensure man's life functions during
flight in outer space and return to Earth. Additional Details:
Korabl-Sputnik 5 (65) http://www.astronautix.com/details/korik565.htm.

So there were a total of seven unmanned Vostok tests prior to Gagarin's
flight, of which three worked as planned, including the final two.
* Although the Vladimir Ilyushin spaceflight story doesn't hold water,
I've always thought there was something odd about the whole official
story: That Vladimir Ilyushin had been injured in a car accident and had
been sent to a Chinese health resort to recuperate. At the time,
relations between the Soviet Union and China were deteriorating rapidly,
and China seems a odd place to send one of their top test pilots, as it
implies that the Soviet Union's medicine isn't as good as China's, and
that would be unthinkable for the Kremlin to admit.
I always suspected that either Ilyushin was down there helping the
Chinese with some aspect of their military program (probably involving
aircraft or missiles) and got held hostage by the Chinese when relations
broke down, or that Ilyushin was doing a recon flight over China and ran
into some problem that forced him down inside the country, where he was
held by the Chinese.

Pat

"Pat Flannery" wrote in message
...

where he was held by the Chinese.

"That's even more painful than the rotunda!"

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:01:06 -0500, Pat Flannery
wrote:

First attempted flight of the Vostok 1K manned spacecraft prototype.
Dogs Chaika and Lisichka perished in the explosion of the rocket.

....I've always wondered about this one, especially why the dog
compartment wasn't rigged with the ejection seat setup as it would be
with a human pilot. One would think that this would have been the
perfect validator as to whether or not this escape system would have
been survivable for a human.

OM

--

"Try Andre Dead Duck Canadian Champagne! | http://www.io.com/~o_m
Rated the lamest of the cheapest deported | Sergeant-At-Arms
brands by the Condemned in Killfile Hell!" | Human O-Ring Society

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:01:06 -0500, Pat Flannery
wrote:

I always suspected that either Ilyushin was down there helping the
Chinese with some aspect of their military program (probably involving
aircraft or missiles) and got held hostage by the Chinese when relations
broke down, or that Ilyushin was doing a recon flight over China and ran
into some problem that forced him down inside the country, where he was
held by the Chinese.

....There's two things to consider that might lend a little more
credibility to the medical leave story:

1) At this time, relations between the two Commie empires was probably
at the best it had ever been.

2) China's big medical deal was accupuncture, which *does* work.

....What I suspect Ilyushin went to China for was accupuncture
treatment for some flight-related nerve damage condition, the type
that gives you the bad back that hurts so bad you damn near pass out
from the pain when your muscles contract and force out that fart. ISTR
reading an article years ago on just exactly how Soviet doctors were
rather put off by the loss of info exchange with their Chinese
counterparts when relations between the two dictatorships soured over
Nikita's refusal to help Mao build his own nuclear playtoy collection;
apparently the Soviets were finding much of Chinese folk medicine to
have significant credibility as opposed to many of the ones their own
babooshkas had been using since even before the Czars showed up.

OM

--

"Try Andre Dead Duck Canadian Champagne! | http://www.io.com/~o_m
Rated the lamest of the cheapest deported | Sergeant-At-Arms
brands by the Condemned in Killfile Hell!" | Human O-Ring Society

OM wrote:


1) At this time, relations between the two Commie empires was probably
at the best it had ever been.


I dug out my Congressional Quarterly book on the Soviet Union, and it
says that things started downhill in the late 1950's and by the summer
of 1960 there was a lot of tension, and it came out in the open in june
when Khrushchev and Peng Zhen got in a squabble at the Romanian Party
Congress: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_split
"But in June 1960 the split became public, at the congress of the
Romanian Communist Party, when Khrushchev and China's Peng Zhen openly
clashed. Khrushchev called Mao a nationalist, an adventurist, and a
deviationist. The Chinese called Khrushchev a revisionist and criticised
his "patriarchal, arbitrary and tyrannical" behaviour. Khrushchev
followed his attack by delivering an eighty-page letter to the
conference, denouncing China.
At a meeting of 81 Communist parties in Moscow in November 1960, the
Chinese delegation clashed heatedly with the Soviets and with most of
the other party delegations, but eventually a compromise resolution was
agreed, preventing a formal rupture. At the twenty-second Congress of
the Soviet Party in October 1961, however, disagreement flared again. In
December, the Soviet Union severed diplomatic relations with Albania,
expanding the dispute from one between parties to one between states."
This is the time period where the Soviets started getting all their
technicians out of China.
The Chinese had Ilyushin IL-28 bombers that they had gotten from the
Soviets, and having the son of the aircraft bureau chief in their hands
might have been a good way to get some leverage on how exactly one of
these things could be equipped with nuclear weapons when the glorious
day came.

Pat

Viriginia Heinlein might have misunderstood the incident,
since while she spoke fluent Russian it was a second
language for her.

Reminds me of Heinlein's character Hilda 'sharp' corners from The
number of the beast:

"Suddenly I realised I had been thinking in Russian. It's a wonderful
language for paranoid thoughts."

Perhaps RAH was having a dig...

Pat Flannery wrote:
James Gifford wrote:

The clincher, really, is that Gagarin's flight was announced in advance

There were a lot of rumors of the upcoming launch in the weeks leading
up to it (including the one that had Vladimir Ilyushin flying the Vostok
on April 7th, 1961 and being injured on his return*) but the first
official announcement of the flight by the Soviet Union occurred while
it was underway

Partly, at least, for practical reasons, so that everyone would be
aware of Gagarin should he need assistance after any emergency landing
outside the USSR.

I understand the Russians prepared several TASS announcements for
launch day in advance, to cover different eventualities, including
death and destruction. The one they got to use, obviously, said that
Gagarin had got safely into orbit.

Having pre-Gagarinic cosmonauts flying would probably have required a
completely different (and still secret) team of cosmonauts in training,
other than the original 20 that (eventually) were known about.

Cosmonauts only became known to the world (and to the Soviet people) as
they successfully achieved spaceflight. In post-Soviet years the ones
who didn't make it became known too. These include Bondarenko, the
youngest trainee, who died in a pure oxygen chamber fire a few weeks
before Gagarin's flight, and Nelyubov, who at one time was third in
line to have a flight (after Gagarin and Titov) but was dismissed for
disciplinary reasons, and went off to some distant Arctic squadron
where he had to watch his former colleagues achieve fame. (Well, some
of them... some didn't fly until 3 years after he died in 1966)

There were other trainee cosmonauts from the first tranche who had
medical problems. Eight of the original 20 never flew, for one reason
or another, but those eight are known about now. But not any other
bunch of cosmonauts.

--
Nick