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Progress ISS launch fails!
In sci.space.history message 1216e020-97f3-4ac7-909e-98c9cbe45246@p37g2
000prp.googlegroups.com, Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:46:58, Mike DiCenso posted: There's nothing any of the COTS participants have that can even remotely compete with a Shuttle orbiter's capabilities. Falcon 9 can orbit more payload mass than STS could, per G$ cost. STS could land only on runways; Dragon can come down on over half of the Earth's surface, if it really wants to, with more to be added. And Elon Musk thinks it could land on Mars, where there as yet no runways (and too little atmosphere) for STS. -- (c) John Stockton, nr London, UK. Turnpike v6.05 MIME. Web http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQqish topics, acronyms and links; Astro stuff via astron-1.htm, gravity0.htm ; quotings.htm, pascal.htm, etc. No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News. |
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Progress ISS launch fails!
On Aug 30, 9:27*am, Fred J. McCall wrote:
bob haller wrote: On Aug 29, 9:28*pm, Fred J. McCall wrote: bob haller wrote: probably because we no longer have much of a manufacturing base. china has taken our manufacturing jobs. Sorry, but as on everything else you spout on, you're full of ****e on this as well. *The US still has the largest manufacturing base on the planet. *In billions of dollars: Country 1990 * *1995 * *2000 * *2005 * *2006 * *2007 * *2008 USA * * 1,041 * 1,289 * 1,543 * 1,624 * 1,712 * 1,756 * 1,831 China * 145 * * 300 * * 484 * * 734* * *891* * *1,106* *1,399** Japan * 810 * * 1,219 * 1,034 * 979 * * 927 * * 923 * * 1,045 Germany 438 * * 517 * * 392 * * 571 * * 608 * * 711 * * 767 Italy * 240 * * 226 * * 206 * * 295 * * 302 * * 345 * * 381 UK * * *206 * * 218 * * 226 * * 264 * * 295 * * 323 * * 323 France *200 * * 233 * * 190 * * 255 * * 255 * * 287 * * 306 Russia *120 * * 64 * * *45 * * *124 * * 157 * * 206 * * 256 Brazil *120 * * 125 * * 96 * * *137 * * 163 * * 201 * * 237 Korea * 66 * * *131 * * 136 * * 211 * * 234 * * 260 * * 231 Spain * 112 * * 104 * * 98 * * *160 * * 170 * * 196 * * 222 Mexico *62 * * *67 * * *133 * * 154 * * 175 * * 182 * * 197 Canada *92 * * *100 * * 129 * * 168 * * 182 * * 197 * * 195 India * 51 * * *61 * * *69 * * *122 * * 141 * * 177 * * 188 sounds nice but look at how much manufacturing has been lost over the last 20 years.......... Take your shoes off. *The value of manufacturing has gone UP every year, not down. in any case in this down cycle jobs havent grown. and home prices are still falling Which has **** all to do with the original claim, which is false. -- "False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the *soul with evil." * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- Socrates- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - take just a few industries....... US produces very few ICs, feds are unhappy since having others fabricate ICs leaves them vulnerable. a IC fab plant closed in phoenix, family worked there, their last job was packing up the equiptement which was shipped to china...... US now longer produces power generators, with power plants controlled on line they are vulnerable to foreigners ordering them to overspeed and self destruct, order time 6 months minimum. I sell and service roll laminators for a living, nearly all are manufactured in places like china. one claims to be built in the USA, but its most from chinese parts. if obama hadnt saved GM china would of bought it, and moved production to china. all the US would of had left were a few large parts warehouses for spare parts. |
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Progress ISS launch fails!
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:02:56 -0400, Jeff Findley
wrote: If NASA wanted so desperately to kill COTS, they'd have gone long ago with USA's proposal to fly the Space Shuttle commercially. I never understood how this would have helped. Creating U.S.A. was an attempt at commercializing at least some of the shuttle program. No, it was more or less just centralizing contracts. Still NASA ran the show. Commercial Shuttle would have been NASA no longer running the show. Brian |
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Progress ISS launch fails!
On 8/30/2011 3:57 PM, Brian Thorn wrote:
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:02:56 -0400, Jeff Findley wrote: If NASA wanted so desperately to kill COTS, they'd have gone long ago with USA's proposal to fly the Space Shuttle commercially. I never understood how this would have helped. Creating U.S.A. was an attempt at commercializing at least some of the shuttle program. No, it was more or less just centralizing contracts. Still NASA ran the show. Commercial Shuttle would have been NASA no longer running the show. Whether that would have been a good or bad idea is a very open question. The privatizing of Shuttle support under Reagan left a mish-mash of privatized streamlining of economics to make a profit, and piles of NASA bureaucracy and paperwork. Whatever you did probably wouldn't have saved enough money to turn the bad economics of the whole program around... and besides, you might have ended up with a madman trying to exterminate humanity with mutated orchid spores, and replacing them with perfect human specimens. Captain Kirk had to deal with **** like that... twice. ;-) Pat |
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Progress ISS launch fails!
On Aug 29, 2:02*pm, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article 1216e020-97f3-4ac7-909e-98c9cbe45246 @p37g2000prp.googlegroups.com, says... On Aug 25, 12:17*pm, Pat Flannery wrote: On 8/25/2011 1:06 AM, Jochem Huhmann wrote: This might help though with NASA supporting SpaceX with manned Dragon missions. ISS hanging off Soyuz for all manned flights is not a state of affairs one would wish for. I don't think NASA likes Dragon, as it is a threat to their way of dong things, and they probably wish it would just go away... so that business as usual with ULA could go on as before. NASA sort of got dragged, kicking and screaming, into COTS, to show they wanted to privatize space services. If NASA wanted so desperately to kill COTS, they'd have gone long ago with USA's proposal to fly the Space Shuttle commercially. I never understood how this would have helped. *Creating U.S.A. was an attempt at commercializing at least some of the shuttle program. *It certainly didn't help costs much. What Brian said. It was a kinda, sorta step in that direction, but was mostly just streamlining of existing contracts under a centralized contract. Which did save some money, but it was not commerical. Boeing did make a proposal to use Columbia for a commericalized Shuttle effort, since it was too heavy to carry out most ISS assembly and ressupply mission, it was relegated to the handful non-ISS missions, and then possible semi-retirement in flyable storage. This is where the whole concept of reintroducing of a large cryogenic stage on Shuttle came from in the late 1990's via fueling the stage in-flight from ET leftovers to get around the post-Challenger safety issues, since Columbia would have been expected to fly commerical satellite missions as well as the occasional NASA missions. There's nothing any of the COTS participants have that can even remotely compete with a Shuttle orbiter's capabilities. Luckily, they don't have too in order to supply ISS with cargo or even to eventually provide crew transport for ISS. *ISS provides orbital far beyond those needed for simple cargo and crew transport. As we have been reminded of recently however, a single STS orbiter can do the mission of several Progess, Soyuz, or COTS in one mission, and the 15 tons of downlift mass is not something anyone, not even COTS can even get near for a very long time. -Mike |
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Progress ISS launch fails!
Fred J. McCall wrote:
Sorry, but as on everything else you spout on, you're full of ****e on this as well. The US still has the largest manufacturing base on the planet. In billions of dollars: Not by now. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/af2219cc-7...44feabdc0.html Country 1990 1995 2000 2005 2006 2007 2008 USA 1,041 1,289 1,543 1,624 1,712 1,756 1,831 China 145 300 484 734* 891* 1,106* 1,399** The overtaking trend is pretty clear. Besides, where did you get the figures? |
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Progress ISS launch fails!
On Sep 1, 4:07*pm, "Fevric J. Glandules" wrote:
Fred J. McCall wrote: Sorry, but as on everything else you spout on, you're full of ****e on this as well. *The US still has the largest manufacturing base on the planet. *In billions of dollars: Not by now.http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/af2219cc-7...4feabdc0..html Country * *1990 * *1995 * *2000 * *2005 * *2006 * *2007 * *2008 USA * * * * * * * *1,041 * 1,289 * 1,543 * 1,624 * 1,712 * 1,756 * 1,831 China * * * * * * *145 * * 300 * * 484 * * 734* * *891* * *1,106* *1,399** The overtaking trend is pretty clear. Besides, where did you get the figures? china supassed the US sometime ago it made the news at the time....... fred must wear brite red colored glasses, for him everything is rosey......... but thats not reality |
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Progress ISS launch fails!
On Sep 1, 11:24*pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
bob haller wrote: On Sep 1, 4:07*pm, "Fevric J. Glandules" wrote: Fred J. McCall wrote: Sorry, but as on everything else you spout on, you're full of ****e on this as well. *The US still has the largest manufacturing base on the planet. *In billions of dollars: Not by now.http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/af2219cc-7...44feabdc0.html Country * *1990 * *1995 * *2000 * *2005 * *2006 * *2007 * *2008 USA * * * * * * * *1,041 * 1,289 * 1,543 * 1,624 * 1,712 * 1,756 * 1,831 China * * * * * * *145 * * 300 * * 484 * * 734* * *891* * *1,106* *1,399** The overtaking trend is pretty clear. Besides, where did you get the figures? china supassed the US sometime ago it made the news at the time....... Because we went into a recession, not because they 'stole our manufacturing', as you keep claiming. fred must wear brite red colored glasses, for him everything is rosey......... but thats not reality bobbert must have his head up his ass, for him everything is ****tey........ but thats not reality -- "Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is *only stupid." * * * * * * * * * * * * * * -- Heinrich Heine- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - its common knowledge lack of manufacturing is hurting economic recovery... manufacturing used to pay well, the workers then bought other things. today china is ahead of US in manufacturing........... |
#99
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Progress ISS launch fails!
Fred J. McCall wrote:
"Fevric J. Glandules" wrote: Fred J. McCall wrote: Sorry, but as on everything else you spout on, you're full of ****e on this as well. The US still has the largest manufacturing base on the planet. In billions of dollars: Not by now. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/af2219cc-7...44feabdc0.html Unreadable. Still works for me. Shortcut better? http://tinyurl.com/ft-us-manuf Country 1990 1995 2000 2005 2006 2007 2008 USA 1,041 1,289 1,543 1,624 1,712 1,756 1,831 China 145 300 484 734* 891* 1,106* 1,399** The overtaking trend is pretty clear. But the claim wasn't that the US share of total world industrial capacity was declining. The claim (which you 'cleverly' snipped) was "we no longer have much of a manufacturing base. china has taken our manufacturing jobs." *Your* claim was "US still has the largest manufacturing base". The other claim is idiotic and not worth bothering with. Besides, where did you get the figures? Readily found. Try, for example, http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/...tries-in-2007/ http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...tatistics.html References are good. But it's still not clear (and I have had a quick look at those two) how the figures are calculated. E.g. is a ton of steel valued at what it would fetch in the US, or locally? |
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Progress ISS launch fails!
Fred J. McCall wrote:
But it probably won't stay that way when the US economy recovers. China is 'ahead', but they're having a problem moving product. The combination of cheap labour, cheap resources, and a massive (potential) domestic market means that China *will* wipe the floor [0]. Their only problem at the moment is quality - but they're working on it. Remember when "made in Japan" was a jokey reference to something being well below par? In time, brandnames like Sony became a by-word for quality: yet now, even the Japanese get their PC motherboards from Taiwan. What comes to mind here is the request "I want the world's best gearbox". The response is another question: "How many do you want?" If it's "a hundred" - go to the UK, which dominates the highest levels of automobile racing [1]. If it's "ten thousand", perhaps you're better off with the Germans. If it's "one million", talk to the Japanese. If it's "one hundred million", talk to the Chinese. [0] It was IMO a similar (but not identical) combination that put the US where it is today. [1] I don't know about *now*, but a few years ago at least half of the cars on an Indycar starting grid were built in England, and shipped home between races. And for the *global* sport, i.e. Formula One, you'll find that 'Mercedes' (supposedly German) and 'Renault' (supposedly French) are based in Northamptonshire and Oxfordshire respectively. |
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